The future of international hockey

[jj cale]

Ofc Canadians the biggest connection it. But hockey means a lot for Finns as well and after 1995's WHC win affected massively the Finnish population. And I mean I don't think Canadians care that much about international tournament except if they are best-on-best, Hlinka or WJC's. People may follow but if the team succeeds, its what was expected from Canadians so its not like "wow we did well", more like "good, we won".

I never said Finland does not have a big connection to the game, that is also something hockey fans all know.

As for not caring about international competitions, well, after the best on bests and the WJC's the only real big one we have is the WHC and Canadians are watching the Stanley Cup playoffs instead, no surprise there.....................they have like a 100 year history with that league, which only more backs up what I have been saying.

One more thing, Canadians are on pins and needles watching the WJC and best on bests, I mean, they exploded when Crosby scored the golden goal and it wasn't because they expected to win.............................it's because they knew they could possibly lose and they knew we had to win. That says something.....................that's how much it means to us.

Big difference, night and day from how any other country views it, and that's because of what the game means to us is unique to any other country, it's a different kind of special.

 

[Onehitwonder]

No, I'm sorry, but no.

And that's not a knock on Finland because no one has the history and cultural significance with the game that Canada does.

Well if the point people are trying to make is, that hockey has been played longest in Canada. Then I can give to you, but I dont know how that is relevant? Hockey became popular in Finland somewhere around 60s, but when it comes to cultural significance, then yes, it is as big in Finland than it is in Canada. Finland is only 105 year old country, so its not a fair comparison. Im 37 and hockey has allways been the biggest sport here in my entire lifetime, and it affects society so much outside of sports aswell.

 

[jj cale]

Well if the point people are trying to make is, that hockey has been played longest in Canada. Then I can give to you, but I dont know how that is relevant? Hockey became popular in Finland somewhere around 60s, but when it comes to cultural significance, then yes, it is as big in Finland than it is in Canada. Finland is only 105 years old country, so its not a fair comparison. Im 37 and hockey has allways been the biggest sport here in my entire lifetime, and it affects society so much outside of sports aswell.

I really don't know what else to say but there isn't much point in arguing something that is common knowledge.

I mean, take your wins at international tournaments and enjoy them..............but don't lose your head over it or anything, it's going too far.

 

[Onehitwonder]

I really don't know what else to say but there isn't much point in arguing something that is common knowledge.

I mean, take your wins at international tournaments and enjoy them..............but don't lose your head over it or anything, it's going too far.

It seems to me you got insulted and I dont understand why. I never said Finland was better than Canada, or that the game has more significance in Finland. I said its probably equal. You dont live in Finland, and I dont live in Canada, but its impossible to imagine it would be bigger in Canada, when you have a country where important games are watched by half the population, and how important the game is to finns, and how much it affects the society.

 

[NyQuil]

You dont live in Finland, and I dont live in Canada, but its impossible to imagine it would be bigger in Canada, when you have a country where important games are watched by half the population, and how important the game is to finns, and how much it affects the society.

Well, it's going to be bigger because Canada has ~7 times the population of Finland.

16.7M people watched the Gold Medal final in 2010, which was roughly half the population at the time, ~3 times the total current population of Finland, and ~5 times how many people watched the highest Finnish hockey broadcast of all time.

 

[member 305909]

As a Finn I can assure you that if you are a person who doesn't care about hockey or even hates hockey, believe it or not there are people like that in Finland, life is still perfectly possible in Finland.

Perhaps on one day in a year if Finland wins the world champinships there is an all around hoolabaloo which gets on your nerves but the rest of the time you can easily avoid hockey if you want.

I would say that if you live in a country where people are crazy about soccer it is much more difficult to ignore it if you don't care about it.

 

[FinPanda]

Well, it's going to be bigger because Canada has ~7 times the population of Finland.

16.7M people watched the Gold Medal final in 2010, which was roughly half the population at the time, ~3 times the total current population of Finland, and ~5 times how many people watched the highest Finnish hockey broadcast of all time.

Should use percentage instead of population since I know we can't compare with the population, which is not exactly our fault.

I really don't know what else to say but there isn't much point in arguing something that is common knowledge.

I mean, take your wins at international tournaments and enjoy them..............but don't lose your head over it or anything, it's going too far.

You compeletely missed the point and get insulted over nothing. Hockey was created in Canada and its been a part of Canadian identity. But for Finns its also more than you think it is. No one is saying Finland is better than Canada in hockey, just saying the meaning of hockey for Finnish society is massive and its just something you can't understand. Wins matter, but this was never about just winning WHC, but how hockey brings people together time after time. Not on Canadas level, but I hope you can see that hockey means a lot for Finnw instead of taking it personally that love for hockey can be massive in some other country thsn Canada.

 

[NyQuil]

Finland and Canada are the only two countries where hockey is the #1 sport so there is a special kinship.

This whole discussion stems from some belief earlier in the thread that there is some kind of North-American hockey culture which is wrong. There are some shared characteristics but it doesn't exist in the national character of the US, and is more of a regional thing.

Anyone who questions hockey’s importance in Canada, both historically and today, should remember that it is literally on our currency and it’s been a crucial part of our overall culture for well over a century, since before we were even a country of our own.

 

[NyQuil]

I would say that if you live in a country where people are crazy about soccer it is much more difficult to ignore it if you don't care about it.

I have a funny anecdote from England, where I was there for a conference but my wife joined me for the weekend afterwards.

Chelsea, my EPL team, was playing in the Champions League final against Bayern Munchen so I went to the Hammersmith-Fulham neighbourhood in Chelsea kit to watch the match live at a real supporters pub.

The celebration was pretty epic, but as I took the tube back downtown to my hotel I realized that we were the only ones in the entire car in football jerseys, after being absolutely surrounded by fans in the streets.

A well-dressed woman asked “Was there a football match tonight?”

And I replied, “Yes, the Champions League Final in fact..”

“Ah, that’s nice.”

Still a very classist sport in jolly old England.

 

[jj cale]

Should use percentage instead of population since I know we can't compare with the population, which is not exactly our fault.

You compeletely missed the point and get insulted over nothing. Hockey was created in Canada and its been a part of Canadian identity. But for Finns its also more than you think it is. No one is saying Finland is better than Canada in hockey, just saying the meaning of hockey for Finnish society is massive and its just something you can't understand. Wins matter, but this was never about just winning WHC, but how hockey brings people together time after time. Not on Canadas level, but I hope you can see that hockey means a lot for Finnw instead of taking it personally that love for hockey can be massive in some other country thsn Canada.

I didn't miss any point, hey, when fans start saying Canadians don't care for international tournaments(insinuating the sport just isn't that big a deal for them, and saying it about Canada of all places) I know they don't have a clue, you can't miss that point.

I know no one was saying they were better then Canada in hockey, what they were implying is that they have a superior hockey culture, and of course they don't. Everyone who knows anything about the game knows about Canada and hockey, and when people who don't know the game are asked about the game about the only thing they can tell you is......" played on ice, Canadian sport" they don't start talking about Finland, because the game is far more closely associated with Canada.

Theres a reason for that and we all know what it is, because Canada is the country with the biggest presence in the game from both a historical stand point and culturally from it's beginnings to the present day.

I mean, when fans start doing things like making claims of the nature that is being increasingly made concerning superior hockey culture over Canada..........................it rankles me, and it should rankle me for obvious reasons.





I rest my case, I dunno, it seems a few junior and WHC wins is making some fans heads out to be pretty big, they might want to watch out for that, the fall is pretty hard. People are always ragging on Canadian fans on this site about not having any humility, seems that is not an exclusive disease by any means.

Just my two cents. You may not like what I have to say here but I'm going to say it because it needs to be said.

 

[Vakarte]

Do you guys think ice hockey at this point is a niche sport for wealthy people?

Cause I feel like items are changing and people are getting involved in different sports that are more accessible and more fun. This isn't just a North American thing, it is also a Europe thing.

 

[Yellow and the green]

Real problem with the IIHF tournaments is that they are held every year. There is no urge for the top players to play at these tournaments since "you can always play in the next tournament". Olympics have been regarded the best international tournament in hockey but NHL circus league needs to have a 80 game regular season for some reason and lengthy playoffs.
Some american will probably say to watch the NHL playoffs or the world cup but i am not intrested in those meaningless corporate events.

 

[FinPanda]

I didn't miss any point, hey, when fans start saying Canadians don't care for international tournaments(insinuating the sport just isn't that big a deal for them, and saying it about Canada of all places) I know they don't have a clue, you can't miss that point.

I know no one was saying they were better then Canada in hockey, what they were implying is that they have a superior hockey culture, and of course they don't. Everyone who knows anything about the game knows about Canada and hockey, and when people who don't know the game are asked about the game about the only thing they can tell you is......" played on ice, Canadian sport" they don't start talking about Finland, because the game is far more closely associated with Canada.

Theres a reason for that and we all know what it is, because Canada is the country with the biggest presence in the game from both a historical stand point and culturally from it's beginnings to the present day.

I mean, when fans start doing things like making claims of the nature that is being increasingly made concerning superior hockey culture over Canada..........................it rankles me, and it should rankle me for obvious reasons.





I rest my case, I dunno, it seems a few junior and WHC wins is making some fans heads out to be pretty big, they might want to watch out for that, the fall is pretty hard. People are always ragging on Canadian fans on this site about not having any humility, seems that is not an exclusive disease by any means.

Just my two cents. You may not like what I have to say here but I'm going to say it because it needs to be said.

I never said Canadians don't care about international tournaments. Just said hockey in Finland have a passion for it like not any other sport, ppl get together etc.

Culturally etc Canada is of course ahead.

 

[Albatros]

Just said hockey in Finland have a passion for it like not any other sport, ppl get together etc.

Soccer. Success in hockey is merely more frequent.

 

[FinPanda]

Soccer. Success in hockey is merely more frequent.

Thats not as big though

 

[Albatros]

Thats not as big though

People in Finland were celebrating mere qualification to the European Championships in soccer as much as a World Championship title victory in hockey.

 

[NyQuil]

People in Finland were celebrating mere qualification to the European Championships in soccer as much as a World Championship title victory in hockey.

Part of it is the novelty.

Canada qualifying for the World Cup is a pretty big deal here since it’s the first time since 1986.

 

[Albatros]

Also top soccer players of the previous generations that never qualified like Litmanen and Hyypiä are just as big stars as any hockey players like Selänne or Kurri. The domestic soccer league is definitely smaller than in hockey, but therefore the English Premier League and other top European soccer leagues are much more popular than the NHL.

 

[Lepardi]

Well, it's going to be bigger because Canada has ~7 times the population of Finland.

16.7M people watched the Gold Medal final in 2010, which was roughly half the population at the time, ~3 times the total current population of Finland, and ~5 times how many people watched the highest Finnish hockey broadcast of all time.

Total TV viewership is a very interesting way of determining how "big" a sport is in a country.

If the USA plays Uruguay or Croatia in the World Cup of soccer, the total number of TV viewers in the USA will probably be about 5 times larger than the entire population of Uruguay or Croatia. By your logic this means soccer is infinitely bigger in the United States than it is in said countries.

 

[NyQuil]

Total TV viewership is a very interesting way of determining how "big" a sport is in a country.

If the USA plays Uruguay or Croatia in the World Cup of soccer, the total number of TV viewers in the USA will probably be about 5 times larger than the entire population of Uruguay or Croatia. By your logic this means soccer is infinitely bigger in the United States than it is in said countries.

Actually, the point I was making is that the level of interest is roughly similar (e.g. half the citizenry) but with a much larger population.

Re-read the post I was responding to again and it makes more sense.

Finland does not have some kind of monopoly on passion or interest in hockey.

Canada is basically Finland only with 5 times as many fans.

 

[Lepardi]

Actually, the point I was making is that the level of interest is roughly similar (e.g. half the citizenry) but with a much larger population.

Re-read the post I was responding to again and it makes more sense.

Finland does not have some kind of monopoly on passion or interest in hockey.

The Olympic hockey final in 2010 averaged 27.6 million viewers on NBC. That's way more than the Canadian viewership.

We can safely say hockey is way bigger in the United States than it is in Canada.

 

[NyQuil]

The Olympic hockey final in 2010 averaged 27.6 million viewers on NBC. That's way more than the Canadian viewership.

We can safely say hockey is way bigger in the United States than it is in Canada.

Sure, they also have the vast majority of NHL teams.

In an absolute sense, you are correct.

The US does a lot of the heavy lifting when it comes to providing a commercial outlet for the sport and they deserve a lot of credit.

The difference is that you’re less likely to run into a hockey fan in the US relative to Canada and Finland, because at a national level, it is behind football, baseball, basketball, NASCAR and golf.

 

[Sanf]

People in Finland were celebrating mere qualification to the European Championships in soccer as much as a World Championship title victory in hockey.

I agree. In parts it has become part of our culture to unite in these kind of moment of success. Whether it is hockey, football or even something like Eurovision song contest. And from team sports Finland has only been smelling success in hockey for longest time.

I guess locally you can get close to what they have in Canada. I have lived most of my life in Hämeenlinna. Hockey has deep roots in here. Legends from the time that Finnish hockey was in the level of Italy, Romania and such are well remembered here. Everybody has connection to hockey whether it´s own "career", family, relatives, friends... But I don´t still think it compares to what they have in Canada.

 

[Lepardi]

People in Finland were celebrating mere qualification to the European Championships in soccer as much as a World Championship title victory in hockey.

You might want to rethink that.

The deciding Euro qualifying match against Liechtenstein in 2019 averaged 1.02 million viewers.

The hockey final against Canada last month averaged 2.35 million viewers.

 

[Jumptheshark]

My first post. Have been thinking about the topic for some time and finally had enough energy to write a few thoughts on this matter.

To give you some context, I’ve been deeply disappointed with the present state of international hockey. It has been over eight years since we last saw a genuine best-on-best international hockey tournament. Six years ago, in 2016, the World Cup of Hockey brought some short-term comfort, but quite frankly that tournament with experimental teams hardly qualified as a real international tournament. It was certainly entertaining hockey, but still felt more like a pre-season exhibition than a real international tournament.

I am trying to discuss in this post some of the factors that have brought us here. Obviously, the IIHF and the NHL are ultimately accountable for the current stalemate. When you have a big North American sports league with its aspirations and a Europe-based international sports federation with its authority trying to decide who should be the flag-bearer of hockey on international level, an open confrontation is one of the least surprising results.

My main argument is that the tensions between the two organizations rise from the differences in European and North American sports culture. I also think that the disagreement is quite chronic and fans should not hold their breath waiting for it to be resolved. Thus, the final question is how a regular fan like me should deal with the situation. I am trying to write down a couple of thoughts on that as well.

So, why are we here?

Firstly, I believe that the North American audience, including NHL owners, do not fully understand the significance of international competition for European sports fans. Competition between nations is a defining feature of European history, having a profound effect also on the evolution of European sports culture.

For Europeans, international games are not just international games. Of course, on surface a hockey match between Finland and Sweden or Finland and Russia is just a hockey match, a sports event, but in reality there are deeper and more profound perceptions as well as lots of history included. I am quite sure that a majority of European fans consider international competition the highest form of sports.

Now, do not get me wrong, my purpose is not to say that international competition is meaningless to North American sport fans. It definitely is not. However, the whole concept of competition between nations is absolutely a fundamental starting point for European sports.

Secondly, there is a differing emphasis on the function of sports between Europe and North America. One can specify at least three overarching functions for sports: entertainment, business and culture. Naturally, these functions do not exclude each other. It is quite clear that in North America the emphasis is on the first two functions, whereas in Europe, sports are ultimately a function of culture. Just watch European soccer fans, who support their favorite team almost on a spiritual level. I am not saying that the functions have a rank order; rather the functions are real and affect how sports are perceived in Europe and North America.

You have to consider the aforementioned factors when assessing any negotiations between the NHL and the IIHF.

So, what this means for the fans and the future of international hockey?

To be honest, not seeing NHL players in Beijing was one of the biggest disappointments I have experienced as a hockey fan - and this is coming from someone who usually understands the owners’ perspective just fine. For months, I had zero interest to follow the NHL. Of course, the coronavirus was a good and understandable explanation for the NHL to justify its decision, but we all know where the owners are with their commitment to international competition.

I guess we should accept that regular best-on-best hockey might have been just a temporary experiment from 1998 to 2014. We will probably get an NHL-led World Cup of Hockey every now and then, but otherwise international competition in hockey will most of the time not be based on the best players playing against the best players, at least for the foreseeable future.

Accepting this has actually enabled me, as a fan, to enjoy the current international hockey as it is. I know that during the Hockey World Championships there is always speculation about B teams playing C teams, or what the results could have been with everyone icing their best team. As justifiable as this speculation is, it originates, however, from assumptions that have really not been part of international hockey since 2014. As of now, I am just trying to ignore the whole concept of best-on-best. International hockey is still fun and enjoyable to watch, even if it materializes only with the best players available.

you speak of international hockey but clearly look at it from a north American perspective.

The basic problem NA fans have that they do not understand about hockey in Europe is that half the fun the games is the party that goes on around the games

The problem is the NHL has no idea how to grow the game--they only care about money and nothing else

When team Canada announced they would play an X game here in Nottingham a few years ago--the game sold out in 20 minutes--but the nhl did not go oh--lets see if we can plant our flag there.

Compare European football and the NFL to what the NHL does--how often does the NFL play games here in the UK? Every year now.

When the NHL announces games to be played in Europe--owners get pissed they are losing a single home game

until the NHL gets its head out of its ass hockey in North America will continue to lag behind the other big leagues

The NHL wants complete control over everything but they have no idea how to market the game