The fans here have been asking for a team like this for years now, they got what they wanted. This is the monkey's paw

[Matty Sundin]

Nobody wanted Klingberg and I would hardly call him a “big name Dman”. He was brought in for the PP that wasn’t even bad to begin with. His defensive game is honestly so bad that I don’t care what he brings to that. I honestly hope he gets traded as a cap dump at the trade deadline if we’re in a spot to do that. He was not exactly a need and signing him and letting Schenn go was a mistake but we did not ask for that.

Ryan Reeves I agree and I was warned by other fans of teams he played for and that’s looking to be true. He always kinda overrated at his role his entire career and we’re finding that out now. I probably wouldn’t have minded him on a 1 year cheap deal, but the term is a head scratcher.

Like I said, I was told by other fans he’s overrated and it might be why he still finds teams willing to take him. All we can hope is he stops dressing in so many games as our 4th line is gonna get exposed him in it the line up too much. Saturdays game was full proof of that. If not we might just have bury him in minors or buyout eventually. He can still do his role when called upon but he shouldn’t playing every game.

Bertuzzi and Domi haven’t exactly been fitting in to start but I’m still willing to give them time as they have at least shown in the past to be better. Domi in particular has shown he might need time to adjust to a new team. Signing guys to one year deals that might wanna cash in as UFA is honestly not a bad idea for a 1 year plan.

I can see where TS is coming from though. We tried this route in the Burke and Nonis era to be a hard nosed tough team to play against and that blew up in our faces. I do think we have a better mix of players back then to make it work but that would depend how guys like Domi and Bertuzzi do. I’m still willing to give more time on them before I pull out the pitch forks.

 

[GoonieFace]

I agree with the 2 areas that are problems that is true. As far as Reeves, Domi & Bertuzzi etc if the players aren't doing their part what can you do? They haven't lived up to what they are capable of or showed any grit or toughness and Klingberg is not a big name D man anymore. Guy has been horrid especially defensively the last few years he's done. Treliving should have shelled the money out to Dumba who can also quarterback the PP and he's a better all round D man than John.

Dumba is garbage. He went for some short term fill-ins, considering the timeline he had to work with, this was probably the right strategy. He can see how things pan out and will have all that space back next off season

 

[United35]

Ha. 10 game experiment versus how many years the other way? And this transition from Dubas team is hardly complete. Give it a couple years with a change in philosophy and then make a thread.

Every team that wins a cup has sandpaper sprinkled throughout the lineup. It’s not rocket science.

And this team does not qualify for that imo. Not even close.

 

[fahad203]

Not a single fan here wanted this team to be the way it is.

Just because you want a tougher team, doens't mean you want a tough team

You can be tougher and be difficult to play against without having tough players, without having goons in your line up

It's a choice really. A choice Keefe doesn't want to make

Keefe is out in public like, there have been times we fought back. No you didn't Keefe, your team has never fought back to any adversity

This is a serious cultural issue, one stems from Shanny and Keefe. This team is simply too corporate

 

[Trapper]

0.15PPG vs 0.40PPG is very different.

Tampa never had a true enforcer who could do nothing else like Reaves.

Maroon could play.

0.08 vs 0.34PPG in playoffs...

Well that’s really a key.
When your push back guys can play and your skilled guys can push back.
Well that and if you have money to build solid from the net out. This D??? Depth???
Then you start to become a playoff team.

 

[Kurtz]

0.15PPG vs 0.40PPG is very different.

Tampa never had a true enforcer who could do nothing else like Reaves.

Maroon could play.

0.08 vs 0.34PPG in playoffs...

Maroon was no longer a 0.4 ppg player in Tampa.

Pretty sure Reaves won't be on the playoff roster.

 

[myleafs]

First off this team currently has no snarl in the top 6.. Bertuzzi and Domi have been softer this season than nylander.

Second if Reaves being in our lineup in the 4th line as our 18th player is the reason we are losing we have major problems. Leafs should be too talented to worry about our 18th player scoring goals or chipping in defensively.

This team is more skilled than most and still suck..Leafs need toughness, emotion and grit in their lineup. Reaves seems to be the only one that cares even though he sucks.

If I was Keefe Id tell Bertuzzi and Domi if you arent gonna score or contribute then play mean and chippy and hit and fight to rile up the lifeless softies like tavares and Klingberg so they dont fall asleep on the ice anymore. Bertuzzi and Domi need to stop playing like tavares and play like they used to when they beat up kesler and go after kadri and talk shit

There aint a lot of dog in our top guys and why we keep trying to bring that element in but still havent got that part right. The best leaders in the League have that dog in them.

Reaves 10 yrs ago yes please.....old Reaves is like 42 yr old Thornton. To those who said that Bert and Domi were not snot like players even though Tre sold us that narrative I apologize, I really thought they were better than they have been showing though I will say I think they are not being used to their strengths properly. This team really feels like the core 4 and then everyone else, and the connection between the 2 is not great

 

[Shooter2x]

Acting like we were never a .500 team for long stretches under Dubas.

/thread

 

[Matthews4Calder]

Dumba is garbage. He went for some short term fill-ins, considering the timeline he had to work with, this was probably the right strategy. He can see how things pan out and will have all that space back next off season

Dumba signed for 1 year at less than Klingberg. I can't see him being worse than Klingberg. He's more physical can play better D and can quarterback the PP. Many on here said Klingberg was a disaster last year so far it looks like nothings changed.

 

[Hellcat]

You wanted do nothing tough enforcers that would protect the team, you got Ryan Reaves.

You wanted a big name D-man, you got John Klingberg.

You wanted some snarl in the top 6, you got Max Domi and Tyler Bertuzzi.

You wanted a hockey man with lots of experience in charge of things, you got Brad Treliving who has 10 years of being a GM.

You were tired of the nerds running things, so now you have a team that has been caved in on expected goals this season.

You got what you wanted, you just didn't know what this team needed.

The problem with the Leafs over the last few seasons:

None of that is true, we wanted EFFECTIVE players, these guys are useless as ti*s on a bull. Take your cap money, put in a Glad baggie, pour gas on it, light it on fire and that will be better than these colossal waste of cap space UFAs, at least the burning money does something for a short period... it keeps you warm.

 

[Mess]

Now what ???

This is only the beginning of the clean up process that will take years still to undo the damage inflicted by the past clueless GM.

You can't field a competitive Cup contender when you spend 1/2 you Cap on 4 forwards in a Salary Cap World.
You can't expect to win with an unqualified coach that only has the position because of nepotism on behalf of the past GM.
You can't expect to win long-term when you have a scorched earth approach to drafting and developing by trading away picks like candy and make less selections then all other teams the past few years.

This team is assembled of a bunch of mercenary players that put their own financial well being first and team success 2nd and you can't build a cohesive team based on a never ending turnstile door of revolving players year after year.

"Good teams are built from the Goalie out", and "Defense wins Championships" and strong drafting and developing to constantly provide young and impactful players on cheaper contracts "Play the Kids" to have and build a strong foundation up are the keys to success. Salary Cap management and have value added contracts at fair market prices that provide bang for your cap buck return vital to success.

This current Leafs team is virtually the exact OPPOSITE of what I would envision.

I think things are going to get a lot worse before the get better until Leafs get out of CAP HELL and might be closer to a complete overhaul than being Cup Competitive. IMO

 

[Gary Nylund]

Acting like we were never a .500 team for long stretches under Dubas.

/thread

If you really want a straw to grasp on to, may as well say that we've yet to lose a single playoff series under Treviling.

Seriously though, I don't really care much about the regular season but I'll say that even when we weren't winning early last season, we were still playing much better better than we are now. The real issue though is the lack of heart/fight/balls/willtowin/leadership. We don't have it, some of us knew it a long time ago, some of only gave up hoping recently and some still don't get it.

Re. /thread - as more people realize the reality of the situation which is that winning the cup with this group is a pipe dream, there will be many, many more threads like it. That you can take to the bank my friend and if the reality of the situation upsets you, maybe just stay away from this place. Or I dunno, maybe go to the Marner appreciation lollipop thread and post about how he got a few points the other night and how he's super crazy elite, I guarantee there will be at least a couple of people who you can celebrate with.

None of that is true, we wanted EFFECTIVE players, these guys are useless as ti*s on a bull. Take your cap money, put in a Glad baggie, pour gas on it, light it on fire and that will be better than these colossal waste of cap space UFAs, at least the burning money does something for a short period... it keeps you warm.

What I wanted, was our core players to show that they could compete when the going gets tough. I've lost hope though, it just ain't happening.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Kampf and Domi look like a mess.

Reaves has a place when needed but not sure why he stopped doing his job. Seems common place in the Leafs, probably Shanahan at this point.

Kling - will likely find his role under a competent coach when we fire Keefe (I hope)

Bert - same as above


Below is pure insanity... No brains required to figure out the problem and what the freaking Logic is, actually you should probably stop using the word Logic.

Forwards - $57,355,616

Defense - $21,775,000

Dallas:
55 mil on forwards
22 mil on D

Avs:
48 mil on forwards (55 with Landeskog healthy)
28 mil on D

TBL:
46 on F (last year of Hagel at 1.5, 6.5 next year + re-up or replace Stamkos)
25 on D

Boston:
40 on F (Bergeron and Kreicji carryover not included)
26 on D

VGK:
45 on F
26 on D

We’re a Muzzin away from the same D spend every other contender has, flip Bertuzzi’s cap hit to D and it’s fixed.

The difference with those teams is that they’re getting guys like Amadio at the bottom of the lineup out-performing Kampf at a quarter of his cap hit. Instead of Brodie and Klingberg making almost 10mil combined, it’s Theodore + Martinez, Lindholm + Carlo, Towes + Byram, etc.

You can rebalance the available money all you want, it doesn’t matter if the guy spending it is a product of nepotism with a track record of completely misreading pro scouting before giving players massive money.

 

[Menzinger]

Mentioned this in another thread, but just because you give up 1 of the big four, doesn't automatically makes the team better.

I'd rather have a 10 mil Nylander than 10 mil spent on Bertuzzi+ Klingberg.

 

[myleafs]

Mentioned this in another thread, but just because you give up 1 of the big four, doesn't automatically makes the team better.

I'd rather have a 10 mil Nylander than 10 mil spent on Bertuzzi+ Klingberg.

Fair enough but then what to do? If we agree that the core four top heavy cap doesnt work but you dont want to move out any of the core four, whats left? We've tried filling in the blanks with fillers for a few yrs now so thats not the answer.

 

[Dreakmur]

4th line intimidator sure, hockey player not so much.

I think we just have different definitions of what thriving in his role should be.

I think you just don’t understand the role. Kyle Dubas never understood roles either, and that’s one of the primary reasons for his failure here.

 

[Dreakmur]

Mentioned this in another thread, but just because you give up 1 of the big four, doesn't automatically makes the team better.

I'd rather have a 10 mil Nylander than 10 mil spent on Bertuzzi+ Klingberg.

Change doesn’t guarantee improvement, but not changing does guarantee no improvement…

 

[Kurtz]

Fair enough but then what to do? If we agree that the core four top heavy cap doesnt work but you dont want to move out any of the core four, whats left? We've tried filling in the blanks with fillers for a few yrs now so thats not the answer.

I believe that he's not agreeing with you.

The problem is not the top 4, the problem is bad signings on the bottom 6.

Treliving has needlessly overpaid Kampf, Klinberg, Reeves, arguably Domi. There are plenty of cheap, effective bottom 6ers out there. Perry and Maroon were cheap and would have been more effective 4th liners. Lafferty could have been kept. Evan Rodriguez was signed for barely more than Kampf. Stastny is still out there and would have been worth a flyer. Gustaffson gives you the same things as Klinberg does but for 900k instead of 4m.

Probably a dozen more cost-effective UFAs out there, but Tre was very bad at finding value this off-season, and during his tenure in Calgary on the whole as well. No reason to think that he'd make smarter signings if he had more $$ to play with.

 

[Nineteen67]

I believe that he's not agreeing with you.

The problem is not the top 4, the problem is bad signings on the bottom 6.

Treliving has needlessly overpaid Kampf, Klinberg, Reeves, arguably Domi. There are plenty of cheap, effective bottom 6ers out there. Perry and Maroon were cheap and would have been more effective 4th liners. Lafferty could have been kept. Evan Rodriguez was signed for barely more than Kampf. Stastny is still out there and would have been worth a flyer. Gustaffson gives you the same things as Klinberg does but for 900k instead of 4m.

Probably a dozen more cost-effective UFAs out there, but Tre was very bad at finding value this off-season, and during his tenure in Calgary on the whole as well. No reason to think that he'd make smarter signings if he had more $$ to play with.

Stastny, Perry and Maroon dont have much left and are not what the Leafs need at this stage. Offering 1 yr ‘show me‘ tryout contracts to Bertuzzi and Domi are not going to hinder anything going forward. If they want they, can try and flip them for picks at the TDL.

Kampf and Reaves were needless signing.

Klingberg at 1 MM should have been more than enough.

 

[thusk]

You wanted do nothing tough enforcers that would protect the team, you got Ryan Reaves.

You wanted a big name D-man, you got John Klingberg.

You wanted some snarl in the top 6, you got Max Domi and Tyler Bertuzzi.

You wanted a hockey man with lots of experience in charge of things, you got Brad Treliving who has 10 years of being a GM.

You were tired of the nerds running things, so now you have a team that has been caved in on expected goals this season.

You got what you wanted, you just didn't know what this team needed.

The problem with the Leafs over the last few seasons:

1) Goaltending - We haven't really gotten a stable solution since Andersen was here. I'm a Dubas guy but he does have a big weakness when it comes to evaluating goaltenders.

2) Transition Defense - This is something that dates back to the Columbus series. The Leafs are a slow skating team on the back end with Morgan Rielly as the only truly fast skater so they are suseptible to counter attacking teams. This was probably most clearly shown in the Montreal series; Montreal only scored 1 goal off of a sustained forecheck that entire series, the rest of their goals came on special teams (3) and or rush attacks. Justin Bourne after that series noted that Montreal that season relied more on transition offense than any other team in the league and Toronto was one of the worst at transition defense. The Leafs countered this by playing a heavy posession offense which. This problem would pop up vs Tampa the next season and Florida the season after. Florida in our most recent series scored 80% of their goals off rush attacks and not heavy forechecking as people here think.

3) Transition Offense - Basically the other side of the coin as above. This team only has two players who are truly good at transition offense - Nylander and Reilly. Most of the lines are built for heavy posession game. Not that there's anything wrong with that but you do need a balance. Teams that are too one dimensional don't go far.

None of these things were solved in the off season.

One of best post i saw from time here

But i think some thing can change pretty quick...

If toronto trading for Hanifin and resign him long term, thats can drastically change a lot of thing... get a real #2 dman send brodie as 3rd d and get everyone on the good chair

 

[Ianturnedbull]

You wanted do nothing tough enforcers that would protect the team, you got Ryan Reaves.

You wanted a big name D-man, you got John Klingberg.

You wanted some snarl in the top 6, you got Max Domi and Tyler Bertuzzi.

You wanted a hockey man with lots of experience in charge of things, you got Brad Treliving who has 10 years of being a GM.

You were tired of the nerds running things, so now you have a team that has been caved in on expected goals this season.

You got what you wanted, you just didn't know what this team needed.

The problem with the Leafs over the last few seasons:

1) Goaltending - We haven't really gotten a stable solution since Andersen was here. I'm a Dubas guy but he does have a big weakness when it comes to evaluating goaltenders.

2) Transition Defense - This is something that dates back to the Columbus series. The Leafs are a slow skating team on the back end with Morgan Rielly as the only truly fast skater so they are suseptible to counter attacking teams. This was probably most clearly shown in the Montreal series; Montreal only scored 1 goal off of a sustained forecheck that entire series, the rest of their goals came on special teams (3) and or rush attacks. Justin Bourne after that series noted that Montreal that season relied more on transition offense than any other team in the league and Toronto was one of the worst at transition defense. The Leafs countered this by playing a heavy posession offense which. This problem would pop up vs Tampa the next season and Florida the season after. Florida in our most recent series scored 80% of their goals off rush attacks and not heavy forechecking as people here think.

3) Transition Offense - Basically the other side of the coin as above. This team only has two players who are truly good at transition offense - Nylander and Reilly. Most of the lines are built for heavy posession game. Not that there's anything wrong with that but you do need a balance. Teams that are too one dimensional don't go far.

None of these things were solved in the off season.

I can't believe you're accusing the fans of wishing for Domi, Reaves, Klingberg, and Bertuzzi.

The fans here are a lot smarter and more practical than you give them credit for.

If I can recall most fans wanted Schenn, ROR, and Wilson.

No one in all fanbases wanted Klingberg.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

You wanted do nothing tough enforcers that would protect the team, you got Ryan Reaves.

You wanted a big name D-man, you got John Klingberg.

You wanted some snarl in the top 6, you got Max Domi and Tyler Bertuzzi.

You wanted a hockey man with lots of experience in charge of things, you got Brad Treliving who has 10 years of being a GM.

You were tired of the nerds running things, so now you have a team that has been caved in on expected goals this season.

You got what you wanted, you just didn't know what this team needed.

The problem with the Leafs over the last few seasons:

1) Goaltending - We haven't really gotten a stable solution since Andersen was here. I'm a Dubas guy but he does have a big weakness when it comes to evaluating goaltenders.

2) Transition Defense - This is something that dates back to the Columbus series. The Leafs are a slow skating team on the back end with Morgan Rielly as the only truly fast skater so they are suseptible to counter attacking teams. This was probably most clearly shown in the Montreal series; Montreal only scored 1 goal off of a sustained forecheck that entire series, the rest of their goals came on special teams (3) and or rush attacks. Justin Bourne after that series noted that Montreal that season relied more on transition offense than any other team in the league and Toronto was one of the worst at transition defense. The Leafs countered this by playing a heavy posession offense which. This problem would pop up vs Tampa the next season and Florida the season after. Florida in our most recent series scored 80% of their goals off rush attacks and not heavy forechecking as people here think.

3) Transition Offense - Basically the other side of the coin as above. This team only has two players who are truly good at transition offense - Nylander and Reilly. Most of the lines are built for heavy posession game. Not that there's anything wrong with that but you do need a balance. Teams that are too one dimensional don't go far.

None of these things were solved in the off season.

I want a team of Thomas, Roberts, Tucker, Svehla, B. McCabe, Corson, Markov, Yushkevich, etc. As well I want skilled guys like Sundin, Kaberle, Mogilny, etc.


I know it's a lot to ask, but my wishes are nothing like what you're accusing fans of asking for.

 

[Trapper]

Mentioned this in another thread, but just because you give up 1 of the big four, doesn't automatically makes the team better.

I'd rather have a 10 mil Nylander than 10 mil spent on Bertuzzi+ Klingberg.

In another year you start with Tavares. That’s 11 mil right there we don’t need. On a Cup contender, that was the salaries of a Palat, Killorn and another D.

Then you gauge if the remaining “core” has the jam to power through 4 rounds. If it’s fade to black every playoff, that’s addressed next.

 

[Madap]

Yeah, everyone complains about our overpaid big 4, but they’re literally the only ones who are producing. You guys would trade Marner in for 2 Bertuzzi’s? We’d be worse off.

That said, waaay too early for this thread lol. Leafs will be fine and our added players will be better as the season goes on.

 

[notbias]

I think you just don’t understand the role. Kyle Dubas never understood roles either, and that’s one of the primary reasons for his failure here.

Kyle brought in multiple guys who played the same role as Reaves, they just also could play hockey... that is the difference.

Reaves hasn't been able to stick with a team recently, do these GMs not understand roles?