The fans here have been asking for a team like this for years now, they got what they wanted. This is the monkey's paw

[Antropovsky]

Fans have nothing to do with it.

Marners complaints about social media seems to suggest they do play somewhat a role in outcomes.

 

[ANDI P IS CUTE]

when are you guys going to realize its shanahan and the suits that want this type of "team". dubas really screwed the cap for years. softest slowest d ever; butter soft forwards, mental midgits.

 

[darrylsittler27]

What a joke organization from top to bottom.

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

It's called being economical with the truth.

This isn't the team fans asked for. Tampa is the team fans have been begging for. Not this pitiful collection of neutered beta males.

People wanted a big name defenseman all right.

A good one. Not someone who was on the worst pairing in the league last year. The fact they added his partner in Benoit just means they doubled down on stupid.

Same as they did with Domi and Bertuzzi.

Those guys brought the snot. Too bad that's all they brought. Not like the two of them would be enough to change the culture of this pathetic organization anyway.

The team is epic in its spineless gutless performances.

Doesn't matter who the GM or coach is either. The names all change but the results stay the same. Top to bottom the whole franchise is softer than a freshly laid turd.

Anyone who thinks otherwise isn't being honest with themselves.

 

[thewave]

You wanted do nothing tough enforcers that would protect the team, you got Ryan Reaves.

This is incorrect. Toronto has always liked players with a heavy presence, good work ethic and battle in them. The problem is we never had enough Elite talent or the right combination with it to win.

You wanted a big name D-man, you got John Klingberg.

Since when his he a big name Dman?

You wanted some snarl in the top 6, you got Max Domi and Tyler Bertuzzi.

Bert isn't a write off yet, I suspect coaching to be a problem. Domi is lazy, but his cap is small.

You wanted a hockey man with lots of experience in charge of things, you got Brad Treliving who has 10 years of being a GM.

Not really worried about this. He is dealing with pretty bare cupboards though and Dubas really left the cap in hell. I mean, what was he going to do trade Marner at the 11th hour? Shanahan blew this one above all not Tre. Tre got us Matthews signed luckily.

You were tired of the nerds running things, so now you have a team that has been caved in on expected goals this season.

We still have nerds running things, look at Keefe. It's a disaster. Everyone else Dubas and Shanahan put in are there pretty much. Not sure what you are talking about?

You got what you wanted, you just didn't know what this team needed.

No we didn't get half of what we wanted and we always said we needed to balance the cap and get better D. Maybe bolster that bottom L3 L4 C position.

The problem with the Leafs over the last few seasons:

1) Goaltending - We haven't really gotten a stable solution since Andersen was here. I'm a Dubas guy but he does have a big weakness when it comes to evaluating goaltenders.

Dubas didn't draft or develop this. We got a Lou draft in Woll and he seems ok so far. Just hoping he becomes great.

2) Transition Defense - This is something that dates back to the Columbus series. The Leafs are a slow skating team on the back end with Morgan Rielly as the only truly fast skater so they are suseptible to counter attacking teams. This was probably most clearly shown in the Montreal series; Montreal only scored 1 goal off of a sustained forecheck that entire series, the rest of their goals came on special teams (3) and or rush attacks. Justin Bourne after that series noted that Montreal that season relied more on transition offense than any other team in the league and Toronto was one of the worst at transition defense. The Leafs countered this by playing a heavy posession offense which. This problem would pop up vs Tampa the next season and Florida the season after. Florida in our most recent series scored 80% of their goals off rush attacks and not heavy forechecking as people here think.

Not arguing with this point but BT really was in a bind without trading Marner for cap and assets to fix this.

3) Transition Offense - Basically the other side of the coin as above. This team only has two players who are truly good at transition offense - Nylander and Reilly. Most of the lines are built for heavy posession game. Not that there's anything wrong with that but you do need a balance. Teams that are too one dimensional don't go far.

No argument

None of these things were solved in the off season.

 

[thewave]

It’s 100% culture. We bring in players who have some bite and they get neutered.

Why do they stop playing hard? Is it coaches mandate? Bell and Rogers? Shanahan?

Or is that when you establish a new Muskoka 5 and they make all the available money, there is actually no point in trying to earn yourself a position on this team because it's going to be a high turnover team. Everyone just gets shipped off as soon as it comes time for a raise.

1 in 1 out, never address the D issues.

TBH I would just say that MLSE are run by stupid people. I mean, there really isn't another way to put it. They are stupid.

 

[TheRumble]

This is incorrect. Toronto has always liked players with a heavy presence, good work ethic and battle in them. The problem is we never had enough Elite talent or the right combination with it to win.

Since when his he a big name Dman?

Bert isn't a write off yet, I suspect coaching to be a problem. Domi is lazy, but his cap is small.


Not really worried about this. He is dealing with pretty bare cupboards though and Dubas really left the cap in hell. I mean, what was he going to do trade Marner at the 11th hour? Shanahan blew this one above all not Tre. Tre got us Matthews signed luckily.

We still have nerds running things, look at Keefe. It's a disaster. Everyone else Dubas and Shanahan put in are there pretty much. Not sure what you are talking about?

No we didn't get half of what we wanted and we always said we needed to balance the cap and get better D. Maybe bolster that bottom L3 L4 C position.

Dubas didn't draft or develop this. We got a Lou draft in Woll and he seems ok so far. Just hoping he becomes great.

Not arguing with this point but BT really was in a bind without trading Marner for cap and assets to fix this.

No argument

Dubas left us in cap hell and yet Treliving still found room to spend $2.4 million on a 4th line center, $1.3 million on a do nothing "enforcer" plus $3 million on a guy who describe as lazy and another $4.1 million on a defenseman nobody seems to like. I don't follow your line of logic.

 

[thewave]

Dubas left us in cap hell and yet Treliving still found room to spend $2.4 million on a 4th line center, $1.3 million on a do nothing "enforcer" plus $3 million on a guy who describe as lazy and another $4.1 million on a defenseman nobody seems to like. I don't follow your line of logic.

Kampf and Domi look like a mess.

Reaves has a place when needed but not sure why he stopped doing his job. Seems common place in the Leafs, probably Shanahan at this point.

Kling - will likely find his role under a competent coach when we fire Keefe (I hope)

Bert - same as above


Below is pure insanity... No brains required to figure out the problem and what the freaking Logic is, actually you should probably stop using the word Logic.

Forwards - $57,355,616

Defense - $21,775,000

 

[hullsy47]

Don't you...forget about me...don't, don't, don't...

Dubas put us in cap hell .

 

[Guided by Veseys]

It’s been ten games and they have the same record as last year.
They have only played one game where they looked completely outmatched (kings)
New signings are meh but biggest impact to the subpar record thus far are Marner sucking early on (that’s over now so good), Matthews going cold (that’s over), Goalies not performing well (hopefully that’s not going to continue) and a D core that can’t cut it due to decline and injury. Keefe has also shown some judgement lapses that show clearly that he is at best a mediocre tactician.
So with all those listed as the key factors, it makes it difficult for me to accept the monkeys paw premise presented.

 

[notbias]

It’s 100% culture. We bring in players who have some bite and they get neutered.

We bring in players who fans think have more bite than they do, and then fans think they get neutered...

Reaves fights 4 times a year and throws a good hit every 20 games... Domi uses his stick and fights like once a year... Bertuzzi gets in the odd scrum and finishes his forecheck like you've seen here...

I think the expectations of the players being brought in are a little higher than what they actually bring...

I'd rather Clifford up at this point and I think most people would prefer him after a few games, he actually causes some chaos and has some bite.

 

[namttebih]

I think that most posters wanted a change in the core. Swapping out two of the 5 for someone that gives a shit. Plugging holes - yet again with guys on one year contracts, is just repeating past mistakes. This team will never win with both AM and MM as our supposed leaders. Name on the back vs crest on the front has never and will never work in hockey.

 

[ACC1224]

Two questions.

What's a 'monkey paw' ?

Is every thread going to be turned into Dubas worship this season?

 

[HockeyVirus]

I am not happy with the team either, but it has been 10 games.

We haven't seen the roster playing to it's potential yet.

 

[supermann_98]

You wanted do nothing tough enforcers that would protect the team, you got Ryan Reaves.

You wanted a big name D-man, you got John Klingberg.

You wanted some snarl in the top 6, you got Max Domi and Tyler Bertuzzi.

You wanted a hockey man with lots of experience in charge of things, you got Brad Treliving who has 10 years of being a GM.

You were tired of the nerds running things, so now you have a team that has been caved in on expected goals this season.

You got what you wanted, you just didn't know what this team needed.

The problem with the Leafs over the last few seasons:

1) Goaltending - We haven't really gotten a stable solution since Andersen was here. I'm a Dubas guy but he does have a big weakness when it comes to evaluating goaltenders.

2) Transition Defense - This is something that dates back to the Columbus series. The Leafs are a slow skating team on the back end with Morgan Rielly as the only truly fast skater so they are suseptible to counter attacking teams. This was probably most clearly shown in the Montreal series; Montreal only scored 1 goal off of a sustained forecheck that entire series, the rest of their goals came on special teams (3) and or rush attacks. Justin Bourne after that series noted that Montreal that season relied more on transition offense than any other team in the league and Toronto was one of the worst at transition defense. The Leafs countered this by playing a heavy posession offense which. This problem would pop up vs Tampa the next season and Florida the season after. Florida in our most recent series scored 80% of their goals off rush attacks and not heavy forechecking as people here think.

3) Transition Offense - Basically the other side of the coin as above. This team only has two players who are truly good at transition offense - Nylander and Reilly. Most of the lines are built for heavy posession game. Not that there's anything wrong with that but you do need a balance. Teams that are too one dimensional don't go far.

None of these things were solved in the off season.

TLDR but I haven't been clamouring for years for a team full of wimps who only try when they feel like it.

 

[Guided by Veseys]

It’s just hard to believe that having Kerfoot, Holl, Bunting and Lafferty in the lineup over Domi, Klingberg, Bertuzzi and Reaves would really make this team significantly better. I’ve read sentiment like that though and I’m surprised people can make themselves believe it. It’s a wash more or less.
New additions aren’t much better or worse.

 

[Trapper]

Two questions.

What's a 'monkey paw' ?

Is every thread going to be turned into Dubas worship this season?

The monkey's paw is a magical severed ape hand that can grant wishes. It has four fingers and each time one makes a wish a finger will go down.

 

[Evilhomer]

In about 10 games this thread will be as relevant as the overreaction thread.

 

[Rob Brown]

It's starting to seem like a culture thing to me.

It was always a culture thing.

 

[ACC1224]

In about 10 games this thread will be as relevant as the overreaction thread.

Was it ever 'relevant'?
It's always seemed dumb to blame the fans and their 'wishes'.

 

[Nineteen67]

The fans want good players with snarl, good defencemen, a Reaves type in their prime, sort of that Tampa model with a balanced roster with a couple of super stars surrounded by good players that fit in their role.

 

[613Leafer]

I think the fans that have been asking for legitimate change since around the time of the Columbus/Montreal playoff series losses, wanted to see changes to the CORE.

Move a big name, spread the $$ around the roster more appropriately, add legitimate scoring depth, add more toughness, and add a legit top pairing dman.

I do agree that this past offseason, we're so far getting a very poor return for our investment, and some of the decisions were certainly questionable.

 

[notbias]

The fans want good players with snarl, good defencemen, a Reaves type in their prime, sort of that Tampa model with a balanced roster with a couple of super stars surrounded by good players that fit in their role.

Did Tampa ever have a Reaves type?

The Tampa model is to get the best goalie in the league, the best D in the league, and a top 5 forward, and then surround them with other high end talent and the odd grinder with skill. Their team was built mostly on skill and good players, nothing like what Brad is trying to do.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

The Dubas "puck possession analytics and the PP will be our enforcer" approach created good pond hockey regular season teams. They then crashed and burned in the playoffs. That's a proven and historical fact.

If management is adamant about keeping the core 4 together (which they unfortunately are) a new approach was essential. Besides the fact that we have absolutely no goaltending, I believe the rest of the team is better suited for the playoffs than any of the Dubas teams.

But OP could be right. It could be this won't work either. It could be NOTHING will work surrounding this core 4. They eat up too high a percentage of cap an it's long been clear there is some massive culture problem surrounding them.

 

[ACC1224]

It's not realistic to expect that Dubas' flawed approach could be corrected in such a short period of time.