The fans here have been asking for a team like this for years now, they got what they wanted. This is the monkey's paw

[Nineteen67]

But the core of Tampa lost in 4 the year before they won... I guess the role players fixed the core?

Not sure we have the same kind of role players though. Bertuzzi is the closest to the Colemans and Goodrows, no one else is.



If we bring in worse defensive players like Treliving did this year, it will fix the holes you speak of, clearly.

Everyone agrees with you that Tampa built their core properly.

 

[Nineteen67]

The Dubas "puck possession analytics and the PP will be our enforcer" approach created good pond hockey regular season teams. They then crashed and burned in the playoffs. That's a proven and historical fact.

If management is adamant about keeping the core 4 together (which they unfortunately are) a new approach was essential. Besides the fact that we have absolutely no goaltending, I believe the rest of the team is better suited for the playoffs than any of the Dubas teams.

But OP could be right. It could be this won't work either. It could be NOTHING will work surrounding this core 4. They eat up too high a percentage of cap an it's long been clear there is some massive culture problem surrounding them.

When evaluating the Leafs chances going into every playoffs, the first question asked is, ”Is the D good enough to win 4 rounds?” The answer has consistently been no. Last year they were just too slow for playoff hockey and they are worse this year.

 

[Kurtz]

Did Tampa ever have a Reaves type?

The Tampa model is to get the best goalie in the league, the best D in the league, and a top 5 forward, and then surround them with other high end talent and the odd grinder with skill. Their team was built mostly on skill and good players, nothing like what Brad is trying to do.

Pat Maroon.

 

[notbias]

Pat Maroon.

0.15PPG vs 0.40PPG is very different.

Tampa never had a true enforcer who could do nothing else like Reaves.

Maroon could play.

0.08 vs 0.34PPG in playoffs...

 

[TheTotalPackage]

It doesn't help that Giordano is showing his age, and Brodie looks awful. Klingberg and his defensive warts are certainly not being overlooked with sublime offensive production. Defence is a big problem, and a lot of it has nothing to do with Keefe.

 

[ACC1224]

Obviously the Leafs haven't won because Tampa added Maroon and Dubas added Simmonds.

 

[Dreakmur]

Reaves has never thrived, Bertuzzi and Domi are mixed results, but they play low IQ hockey, Klingberg has been bad for a few years and the trend has continued. Not sure they really thrive as a pack.

Still think Domi/Bertuzzi are skilled enough that they can find their role on the team... Klingberg I have less confidence in and Reaves I have 0.

Reaves thrives in a specific role. The guy has had enough of an impact to dress in over 100 playoff games.

 

[notbias]

Reaves thrives in a specific role. The guy has had enough of an impact to dress in over 100 playoff games.

He was playable, not thriving, we may disagree on that, but I don't think he ever thrived.

All those recent teams started benching him and eventually moved on, so not sure why we'd expect him to ever "thrive" here, even with the right linemates.

 

[Dreakmur]

He was playable, not thriving, we may disagree on that, but I don't think he ever thrived.

All those recent teams started benching him and eventually moved on, so not sure why we'd expect him to ever "thrive" here, even with the right linemates.

He absolutely thrived as a 4th line intimidator. That’s inarguable.

You could reasonably say that he no longer thrives, but saying he never did is asinine.

 

[Northernguy10]

It seems that the Keefe teams always start slow, with new guys like they don't understand his systems or he just isnt good at integrating new players to play around the "Core 5".

A good point was made on the radio last week by one of the kyper show guys, that its the Core 5 and then just a bunch of mercenaries for hire, 1 year deals to "prove themselves" then get the f*** out or just league minimum fill-ins, that these players just don't feel like they belong on the team.

Maybe thats why there's no snot and no sticking up for each other when shit happens like with Liljegren.

Yeah I watched that show and he had a point...When so much money is spent on a few players the rentals cant be paid much and often aren't there for long so its hard to be in "one for all...all for one" mode...

 

[Throw More Waffles]

When evaluating the Leafs chances going into every playoffs, the first question asked is, ”Is the D good enough to win 4 rounds?” The answer has consistently been no. Last year they were just too slow for playoff hockey and they are worse this year.

The sad reality is that half the cap on 4 forwards means a perpetual problem of mediocre goaltending, mediocre scoring depth, and mediocre D. Management finds some hidden gems every now and then, but they quickly become worth more than we can pay them.

I’m at the point that I think the leafs should sign Nylander to 10 or 10.5 mil long term, and just do a mini tank next year. Almost 50 mil tied up in 4 forwards. But then Tavares comes off the books and it’s more manageable. Next year, it’s not even worth trying.

 

[Nineteen67]

.

The sad reality is that half the cap on 4 forwards means a perpetual problem of mediocre goaltending, mediocre scoring depth, and mediocre D. Management finds some hidden gems every now and then, but they quickly become worth more than we can pay them.

I’m at the point that I think the leafs should sign Nylander to 10 or 10.5 mil long term, and just do a mini tank next year. Almost 50 mil tied up in 4 forwards. But then Tavares comes off the books and it’s more manageable. Next year, it’s not even worth trying.

With the holes and needs they have, why wait until next year? They couldnt do what was needed this past off-season and are trying out a few things (Bertuzzi, Domi, Klingberg) and what doesn’t work they’ll get rid of by the TDL. They have a lot expiring contracts and they should consider moving some of those, as well.

 

[notbias]

He absolutely thrived as a 4th line intimidator. That’s inarguable.

You could reasonably say that he no longer thrives, but saying he never did is asinine.

4th line intimidator sure, hockey player not so much.

I think we just have different definitions of what thriving in his role should be.

 

[keonsbitterness]

It's called being economical with the truth.

This isn't the team fans asked for. Tampa is the team fans have been begging for. Not this pitiful collection of neutered beta males.

People wanted a big name defenseman all right.

A good one. Not someone who was on the worst pairing in the league last year. The fact they added his partner in Benoit just means they doubled down on stupid.

Same as they did with Domi and Bertuzzi.

Those guys brought the snot. Too bad that's all they brought. Not like the two of them would be enough to change the culture of this pathetic organization anyway.

The team is epic in its spineless gutless performances.

Doesn't matter who the GM or coach is either. The names all change but the results stay the same. Top to bottom the whole franchise is softer than a freshly laid turd.

Anyone who thinks otherwise isn't being honest with themselves.

too


many


paragraphs

 

[sxvnert]

No one asked for an over the hill fighter who doesn't belong in the nhl.

 

[Punch Drunk Loov]

What was the alternative? Are you saying we shouldn't have added Bertuzzi for 1 year 5.5M? Because that seemed like a home run at the time that nobody would've turned down.

There's still 70 games for him to contribute.

 

[Whacky5]

Did Tampa ever have a Reaves type?

The Tampa model is to get the best goalie in the league, the best D in the league, and a top 5 forward, and then surround them with other high end talent and the odd grinder with skill. Their team was built mostly on skill and good players, nothing like what Brad is trying to do.

Yeah but, do any of those players make over 10 mil? We have 3 of them, all on forwards.

 

[notbias]

Yeah but, do any of those players make over 10 mil? We have 3 of them, all on forwards.

Trade Matthews then... he makes over 10 million... all that matters is the number, not the player, trade him for 2x 5 million dollar players, and maybe we get two more Bertuzzis... we'd be destroying the league right now.

Maybe we can trade a Marner for 2x Klingberg.

Tavares for Mantha and Garland.

Now our team is set.

 

[Gallagbi]

Serious question, which existing Leafs have been bad? It is a very short list. But because of this, I hope it is just growing pains.

Samsanov, Holmbeg, and Kampf were re-signed.

You're not walking away from Holmberg, so I'd throw him out and Sammy is similar. Neither have been good - Sammy is obviously the more frustrating of those two and i would consider both returning Leafs.

McCabe had a rocky start, Jarn and Knies arent scoring like you'd want or expect. Brodie is looking better than he did in playoffs, but were definitely seeing an (expected) downward trajectory with his play.

While Marner and Matthews have produced, they havent controlled 5on5 play anywhere close to as well as usual. You can see it in the eye test, +/- (crappy stat) and their advanced stat mainly HDCF% and xGF%.

 

[BrannigansLaw]

Nobody asked for this lol. C’mon get real.

 

[Whacky5]

Trade Matthews then... he makes over 10 million... all that matters is the number, not the player, trade him for 2x 5 million dollar players, and maybe we get two more Bertuzzis... we'd be destroying the league right now.

Maybe we can trade a Marner for 2x Klingberg.

Tavares for Mantha and Garland.

Now our team is set.

How about we trade them for competent defence and maybe a goalie? So sick of no show 11 million dollar players in the playoffs.

 

[notbias]

You're not walking away from Holmberg, so I'd throw him out and Sammy is similar. Neither have been good - Sammy is obviously the more frustrating of those two and i would consider both returning Leafs.

McCabe had a rocky start, Jarn and Knies arent scoring like you'd want or expect. Brodie is looking better than he did in playoffs, but were definitely seeing an (expected) downward trajectory with his play.

While Marner and Matthews have produced, they havent controlled 5on5 play anywhere close to as well as usual. You can see it in the eye test, +/- (crappy stat) and their advanced stat mainly HDCF% and xGF%.

Jarnkrok has outscored every forward acquisition...

Holmberg has played well and is 100% buriable, good signing.

Marner and Matthews have won us games and are playing badly but still producing... that's more than anyone signed.

You use advanced stats for Marner and Matthews and Marner, why not Brodie?
gf% is 58.8%
xGF% only 46.7% but that is 3rd best... it is +0.7% rel and for example, Klingberg is -9.3%.

Knies has been okay, but not much else.

McCabe has been bad.

The difference in the poor play from the players acquired vs the ones who weren't is huge.

How about we trade them for competent defence and maybe a goalie? So sick of no show 11 million dollar players in the playoffs.

PPG over the last 3 years and outscoring the opposition when they are on the ice... how is this no-show? Oh you mean earlier in their career and not recently? I am more concerned with how they are evolving.

 

[Matthews4Calder]

You wanted do nothing tough enforcers that would protect the team, you got Ryan Reaves.

You wanted a big name D-man, you got John Klingberg.

You wanted some snarl in the top 6, you got Max Domi and Tyler Bertuzzi.

You wanted a hockey man with lots of experience in charge of things, you got Brad Treliving who has 10 years of being a GM.

You were tired of the nerds running things, so now you have a team that has been caved in on expected goals this season.

You got what you wanted, you just didn't know what this team needed.

The problem with the Leafs over the last few seasons:

1) Goaltending - We haven't really gotten a stable solution since Andersen was here. I'm a Dubas guy but he does have a big weakness when it comes to evaluating goaltenders.

2) Transition Defense - This is something that dates back to the Columbus series. The Leafs are a slow skating team on the back end with Morgan Rielly as the only truly fast skater so they are suseptible to counter attacking teams. This was probably most clearly shown in the Montreal series; Montreal only scored 1 goal off of a sustained forecheck that entire series, the rest of their goals came on special teams (3) and or rush attacks. Justin Bourne after that series noted that Montreal that season relied more on transition offense than any other team in the league and Toronto was one of the worst at transition defense. The Leafs countered this by playing a heavy posession offense which. This problem would pop up vs Tampa the next season and Florida the season after. Florida in our most recent series scored 80% of their goals off rush attacks and not heavy forechecking as people here think.

3) Transition Offense - Basically the other side of the coin as above. This team only has two players who are truly good at transition offense - Nylander and Reilly. Most of the lines are built for heavy posession game. Not that there's anything wrong with that but you do need a balance. Teams that are too one dimensional don't go far.

None of these things were solved in the off season.

I agree with the 2 areas that are problems that is true. As far as Reeves, Domi & Bertuzzi etc if the players aren't doing their part what can you do? They haven't lived up to what they are capable of or showed any grit or toughness and Klingberg is not a big name D man anymore. Guy has been horrid especially defensively the last few years he's done. Treliving should have shelled the money out to Dumba who can also quarterback the PP and he's a better all round D man than John.

 

[rumman]

What was the alternative? Are you saying we shouldn't have added Bertuzzi for 1 year 5.5M? Because that seemed like a home run at the time that nobody would've turned down.

There's still 70 games for him to contribute.

Bertuzzi's game can only improve imo.........

 

[Gallagbi]

Jarnkrok has outscored every forward acquisition...

Holmberg has played well and is 100% buriable, good signing.

Marner and Matthews have won us games and are playing badly but still producing... that's more than anyone signed.

You use advanced stats for Marner and Matthews and Marner, why not Brodie?
gf% is 58.8%
xGF% only 46.7% but that is 3rd best... it is +0.7% rel and for example, Klingberg is -9.3%.

Knies has been okay, but not much else.

McCabe has been bad.

The difference in the poor play from the players acquired vs the ones who weren't is huge.

You need to compare to expectations and not failed signings.

Jarn has 1 goal in 11 games while playing most of the year with our top 6. Domi failing to score doesnt mean hes having a good year.

Brodie's moved from a heavy shutdown player to being Mo's primary partner. I wouldnt and dont consider GF% an "advanced stat" either. I do consider xGF and HDCF advanced stats though, neither of which is kind to Brodie currently

The bar isnt an under performing Bert/Domi/Kling/Reaves for many of these guys