Roster/Rumors/Speculation/Trade Talk - 2023-24: Hotel California

[PK Cronin]

Or he just got taken by Sakic.


He traded the 13th overall for Romanov what do you mean if he traded two seconds for a player like that… he literally did worse lmao

You've offered nothing to support this theory.

 

[saintunspecified]

You've offered nothing to support this theory.

I'm curious - I don't have a dog in this Toews fight.

I personally think that a mid-round 2022 2nd + a 2023 second would be worth as much or more than that 2022 mid-round 1st. Imo once Savoie went off the board, the blue chippers were really gone.

 

[IslandersFan17]

You've offered nothing to support this theory.

It’s not a theory, Toews is one of the best defenders in the league and Lou subsequently overpaid for Romanov trying to fix the mistake.

People want to keep harping on Toews point totals IN HIS SECOND YEAR IN THE LEAGUE. Realistically his first full season, and was fantastic in the playoffs too boot. Obviously Sakic saw something in him that most fans had thought we would be getting after watching Toews develop in college and the A.

Again, these aren’t theories, find anyone of note that thinks the Islanders did well in that trade. An overwhelming majority wouldn’t just say Sakic won that trade but took Lou to the woodshed.

Literally, he traded a 13th overall for Romanov and I have people telling me Toews was worth only two second rounders. f***ing yikes

 

[seafoam]

Or he just got taken by Sakic.


He traded the 13th overall for Romanov what do you mean if he traded two seconds for a player like that… he literally did worse lmao

Romanov returned more than Toews because Sakic was dealing from a position of power, just like when Snow acquired Leddy from Chicago for Pokka & 2nd. Cap compliance affects return.

 

[eoin92]

Romanov returned more than Toews because Sakic was dealing from a position of power, just like when Snow acquired Leddy from Chicago for Pokka & 2nd. Cap compliance affects return.

No, snow’s just an elite GM.

 

[JKP]

Honestly, I don't think the culture in the locker room 'sucked'. I think the lack of accountability/professionalism in the front office was definitely a big problem, and to say that Doug Weight was in over his headis a massive understatement. But for all Jack Capuano's in-game shortcomings (and there were many), he was a functional, professional, coach who had enough of a reputation (and humility) to be proeprly employed ever since... unlike Weight. His room was functional, and it's not his fault it was hurt by the loss of Nielsen (Okposo too, but mostly Nielsen). The Tavares situation hanging over the head of a till-then unaccountable GM was a massive distraction, but that would affect any room.

If the culture really was so messed up, I don't think it could have improved so much in 1 year with remarkably little roster turnover. The Trotz effect was much more strategic & tactical, but I really don't think his locker room management (beyond the fact that he had Stanley Cup winning clout, which is a big factor) was all that different than Capuano. The shift in team leadership from Nielsen to Lee was definitely compromised by the Tavares distraction. But, again, I don't think you can blame Capuano (or even Weight) for that.

from this article: Islanders' turnaround largely down to Barry Trotz's influence - Sportsnet.ca

Trotz then referred to some of their free-agent signings like Leo Komarov and Valterri Filpulla who might not have been the sexiest pick-ups but have come from winning programs and are good professionals, which has allowed them to form an identity. ​

​

He then said, “there was a cultural change. How we practise, why we practise. We gave them the ‘this is what we are doing and why.’”​

 

[Islanders4Cups]

Or he just got taken by Sakic.


He traded the 13th overall for Romanov what do you mean if he traded two seconds for a player like that… he literally did worse lmao

You are a Monday morning QB. Shoulda coulda woulda. Lou could have traded Pullock for more assets and maybe that would have worked out better but no one was calling for that. I doubt Sakic would have traded a first rounder for Toews but we will never know.

 

[seafoam]

Was taking a look at the remaining free agents as of today and just wanted to share a quick observation.

Kadri shot the puck 247 times last season in 71 games. For comparison Dobson led the Islanders in shots last season at 190 in 80 games. He also shot .01% above his career average so it's not out of the question that this guy can pot 25-30 goals for the next few years as long as his shots on goal doesn't dramatically dip.

X-Kadri-Barzal
Lee-Nelson-X
X-Pageau-Palmieri

Putting Barzal on the wing will force him to use his shot more, that's a pretty solid base for a top nine.

Edit: I assume 'systems' can greatly affect shot totals, but maybe Lambert is aware of this and will preach more quantity vs. quality than Trotz did.

 

[saintunspecified]

from this article: Islanders' turnaround largely down to Barry Trotz's influence - Sportsnet.ca

Trotz then referred to some of their free-agent signings like Leo Komarov and Valterri Filpulla who might not have been the sexiest pick-ups but have come from winning programs and are good professionals, which has allowed them to form an identity. ​

​

He then said, “there was a cultural change. How we practise, why we practise. We gave them the ‘this is what we are doing and why.’”​

I still see this more as 'implementation of a strategy/system' than a general culture issue the way that it's typically understood. Short term Nielsen & Kulemin replacements (+ bringing back Matt Martin) tells me more about what the Islanders previously lost and needed to have replaced more than a cultural overhaul. But that's just my opinion. I still see the Islanders trajectory, culturally, as being pretty continuous (with a blip) since the Capuano years.

 

[Seph]

He traded the 13th overall for Romanov what do you mean if he traded two seconds for a player like that… he literally did worse lmao

If you think that was an overpayment, then that just goes more to proving my point that he got fair value back for Toews. But interesting that you bothered to respond to my post, but dodged every question I asked you.

Also, you do realize that 22 is significantly younger than 26 in this league, right? It's hilarious that you can't grasp the notion of trading for a 22 year old factoring in potential/upside and only value on what he has proven but feel that upside/potential should have been the only factor when trading for a 26 year old rather than what he has proven.

 

[JKP]

I still see this more as 'implementation of a strategy/system' than a general culture issue the way that it's typically understood. Short term Nielsen & Kulemin replacements (+ bringing back Matt Martin) tells me more about what the Islanders previously lost and needed to have replaced more than a cultural overhaul. But that's just my opinion. I still see the Islanders trajectory, culturally, as being pretty continuous (with a blip) since the Capuano years.

Trotz had made similar comments about putting Leo's locker next to Barzal so he could learn from Leo's "pro" approach. I think Trotz talked a lot about buy-in and effort and being a "pro". I think that's all culture, not systems. He and Lou brought that and created different expectations within the room and on the ice. It's also why Ho Sang got shipped to no man's land, IMO.

I don't think the professionalism / culture was in place under Snow and Jack/Doug, at least no where near the "level" that Lou and Barry demanded, installed and expected on a daily basis.

 

[Mike C]

If you think that was an overpayment, then that just goes more to proving my point that he got fair value back for Toews. But interesting that you bothered to respond to my post, but dodged every question I asked you.

Also, you do realize that 22 is significantly younger than 26 in this league, right?

In every other walk of life too!

 

[IslandersFan17]

Romanov returned more than Toews because Sakic was dealing from a position of power, just like when Snow acquired Leddy from Chicago for Pokka & 2nd. Cap compliance affects return.

At the time Pokka was considered one of our better specs. We only got picks in return…

If you think that was an overpayment, then that just goes more to proving my point that he got fair value back for Toews. But interesting that you bothered to respond to my post, but dodged every question I asked you.

Also, you do realize that 22 is significantly younger than 26 in this league, right? It's hilarious that you can't grasp the notion of trading for a 22 year old factoring in potential/upside and only value on what he has proven but feel that upside/potential should have been the only factor when trading for a 26 year old rather than what he has proven.

Yeah, a great skating puck moving defender who took a little while to break in, but showed him self very capable. And Sakic has the foresight to see the kid was still trending up.

There was significantly more upside in Toews style/abilities than romanovs. This isn’t even a debate

 

[JJ18Sniper]

At the time Pokka was considered one of our better specs. We only got picks in return…


Yeah, a great skating puck moving defender who took a little while to break in, but showed him self very capable. And Sakic has the foresight to see the kid was still trending up.

There was significantly more upside in Toews style/abilities than romanovs. This isn’t even a debate

Agreed. Romanov has him in physicality, skating is probably close between the two.
However the rest goes to Toews hands down.

 

[saintunspecified]

Trotz had made similar comments about putting Leo's locker next to Barzal so he could learn from Leo's "pro" approach. I think Trotz talked a lot about buy-in and effort and being a "pro". I think that's all culture, not systems. He and Lou brought that and created different expectations within the room and on the ice. It's also why Ho Sang got shipped to no man's land, IMO.

Again, if NYI had kept Frans, he'd probably have had his locker next to Barzal. Back in 2015-2016, Capuano implemented a system that was *very* similar to what Trotz implemented. The team finished with 3 fewer points than int 2018-2019, and let up 216 goals - pretty good considering that two of the offensive powerhouses of the league were in their division. There were two seasons between that season, and the Trotz/LL takeover. I went to a lot of games that year, and NYI were a disciplined, neutral-zone clogging, counterattacking team. They just didn't have Pelech/Pulock to firm up the back end. The difference between play style and roster-construction between that team, and the Islanders of the last couple of years is imo magnified by narrative + playoffs success.

 

[Seph]

Yeah, a great skating puck moving defender who took a little while to break in, but showed him self very capable. And Sakic has the foresight to see the kid was still trending up.

There was significantly more upside in Toews style/abilities than romanovs. This isn’t even a debate.

So answer the question, if Toews had such super high value to every GM but Lou, how come none of them made a better offer than Sakic?

Or maybe, a great skating defenseman that still has a ways to go defensively and hasn't put it together offensively, at age 26, isn't usually seen as super likely to do so. At a certain age, GMs just arent that willing to pay trade assets based on potential. Are you still holding out hope for Aho to establish himself as a top 4 dman too?

And yeah, it absolutely is a debate in terms of value. Romanov's upside is much higher than what he has shown so far and at 22 it makes a lot more sense to pay for upside than it does for a 26 year old. Not to mention you get 4 more RFA controlled years, as the cap is always a major factor in trade value.

 

[IslandersFan17]

So answer the question, if Toews had such super high value to every GM but Lou, how come none of them made a better offer than Sakic?

Or maybe, a great skating defenseman that still has a ways to go defensively and hasn't put it together offensively, at age 26, isn't usually seen as super likely to do so. At a certain age, GMs just arent that willing to pay trade assets based on potential. Are you still holding out hope for Aho to establish himself as a top 4 dman too?

And yeah, it absolutely is a debate in terms of value. Romanov's upside is much higher than what he has shown so far and at 22 it makes a lot more sense to pay for upside than it does for a 26 year old. Not to mention you get 4 more RFA controlled years, as the cap is always a major factor in trade value.

Aho never showed in the league what Toews did. Weird comparison

 

[Seph]

Aho never showed in the league what Toews did. Weird comparison

His scoring rate last season at the same age as Toews was when he got traded was actually very similar to what Toews' was. He has good offensive skills and skating, and if he continued to improve as Toews has done, he'd be a top 4 dman. But most of us dismiss him because at his age it's unlikely he will improve much, and rightly so.

But I see you continue to respond and continue to dodge the question. If Toews had such super high value to every GM but Lou, how come none of them made a better offer than Sakic?

 

[Tres Peleches]

Only a fool thinks watching baseball is more exciting than watching lacrosse

Disagree with you here, tried watching Lacrosse… to me it’s like hockey without the excitement

Baseball I like because you don’t HAVE to be paying attention constantly to follow it. Perfect thing to have on in the background or on a lazy Sunday

 

[IslandersFan17]

His scoring rate last season at the same age as Toews was when he got traded was actually very similar to what Toews' was. He has good offensive skills and skating, and if he continued to improve as Toews has done, he'd be a top 4 dman. But most of us dismiss him because at his age it's unlikely he will improve much, and rightly so.

But I see you continue to respond and continue to dodge the question. If Toews had such super high value to every GM but Lou, how come none of them made a better offer than Sakic?

Yup, point production is the only way to compare players makes total sense

 

[Evgeny Oliker]

Does anyone know when NYI training camp opens?

I would assume Lou would want to at least sign Dobson before then…

 

[Seph]

Yup, point production is the only way to compare players makes total sense

Yeah, that's probably why point production wasn't the only thing I mentioned in why i brought up Aho.

But let's be honest, for puck moving defenseman, especially when it comes to one's with defensive deficiencies (as Toews was still showing, especially in the playoffs that year) -- point production is a major factor.

/edit: Yeah, I should've known you were going to dodge responding to any of the points I made. My fault for taking the obvious bait.

 

[IslandersFan17]

You are a Monday morning QB. Shoulda coulda woulda. Lou could have traded Pullock for more assets and maybe that would have worked out better but no one was calling for that. I doubt Sakic would have traded a first rounder for Toews but we will never know.

Monday morning QBing… seems to be a common phrase here. Do we get to use it for every single trade made ever?

 

[The Real JT]

On another note I was thinking about Milano and I bet he’s already signed with the Isles.

Anaheim cut him loose because his qualifying offer was too high and his dance chairs are being filled up. If someone else were seriously interested, think he would’ve already officially signed with another team. He’s not exactly in a great bargaining position. I bet Lou told he and his agent not to talk or the deal is off.

 

[Throttle]

On another note I was thinking about Milano and I bet he’s already signed with the Isles.

Anaheim cut him loose because his qualifying offer was too high and his dance chairs are being filled up. If someone else were seriously interested, think he would’ve already officially signed with another team. He’s not exactly in a great bargaining position. I bet Lou told he and his agent not to talk or the deal is off.

What other non-qualified RFAs have signed with anyone? I have mentioned this before, but the GMs/Owners are playing some hardball here. Less than a month to go before training camp and there's a lot of UFAs unsigned, teams are noticing they need flexibility because there's too many long term deals on the books. There's going to be a lot of training camp invites and short term deals. The players are having a hard time adjusting to this.

Plus, a fair amount of teams are over the cap, that need to get under. Transactions are coming, but probably closer to September.