Roster/Rumors/Speculation/Trade Talk - 2023-24: Hotel California

[LeapOnOver]

When was the last time a 26 year old defenseman with a career high of 28 points was traded in the offseason for signifcantly more than what Lou got? If Lou traded two 2nd rounders for a player with that resume, these boards would go ape shit. I liked Toews a lot; was sad he got moved and am happy for him that he has developed so well, but acting like he should have had some astronomical trade value is revisionist history.

It is exceedingly rare for a player to become this level of player at age 28. And even if we still want to act like this was a probable development curve for him, why didn't any of the other 29 GMs offer more for him?

Omg such hyperbole lol

 

[IslandersFan17]

Omg such hyperbole lol

Yikes

 

[JKP]

What other non-qualified RFAs have signed with anyone? I have mentioned this before, but the GMs/Owners are playing some hardball here. Less than a month to go before training camp and there's a lot of UFAs unsigned, teams are noticing they need flexibility because there's too many long term deals on the books. There's going to be a lot of training camp invites and short term deals. The players are having a hard time adjusting to this.

Plus, a fair amount of teams are over the cap, that need to get under. Transactions are coming, but probably closer to September.

It sure does feel like there are an awful lot of players out there and not very many dollars to go around.

 

[Seph]

It sure does feel like there are an awful lot of players out there and not very many dollars to go around.

Gonna be a lot of PTOs getting signed in the next few weeks, I'm guessing.

 

[seafoam]

Does anyone know when NYI training camp opens?

I would assume Lou would want to at least sign Dobson before then…

By all accounts Dobson and Romanov have agreed to terms, it's just not filed yet.

 

[Islanders4Cups]

Was taking a look at the remaining free agents as of today and just wanted to share a quick observation.

Kadri shot the puck 247 times last season in 71 games. For comparison Dobson led the Islanders in shots last season at 190 in 80 games. He also shot .01% above his career average so it's not out of the question that this guy can pot 25-30 goals for the next few years as long as his shots on goal doesn't dramatically dip.

X-Kadri-Barzal
Lee-Nelson-X
X-Pageau-Palmieri

Putting Barzal on the wing will force him to use his shot more, that's a pretty solid base for a top nine.

Edit: I assume 'systems' can greatly affect shot totals, but maybe Lambert is aware of this and will preach more quantity vs. quality than Trotz did.

I have not considered Barzal having goal scoring hands since he was unable to improve on his rookie season. Fantastic setup guy but ultimately I view 20 goals as a ceiling for Barzal and a potential for 60+ assists when paired with someone who can score.

Maybe I am way off here, but are there any centers that were moved to wing that actually improved on their point production?

 

[NYI365]

 

[The Real JT]

What other non-qualified RFA’s have signed with anyone? I have mentioned this before, but the GMs/Owners are playing some hardball here. Less than a month to go before training camp and there's a lot of UFAs unsigned, teams are noticing they need flexibility because there's too many long term deals on the books. There's going to be a lot of training camp invites and short term deals. The players are having a hard time adjusting to this.

Plus, a fair amount of teams are over the cap, that need to get under. Transactions are coming, but probably closer to September.

Since you asked, Kase, Heinen, Kubalik and D. Strome.

 

[SayItAintSoJohnny]

Was taking a look at the remaining free agents as of today and just wanted to share a quick observation.

Kadri shot the puck 247 times last season in 71 games. For comparison Dobson led the Islanders in shots last season at 190 in 80 games. He also shot .01% above his career average so it's not out of the question that this guy can pot 25-30 goals for the next few years as long as his shots on goal doesn't dramatically dip.

X-Kadri-Barzal
Lee-Nelson-X
X-Pageau-Palmieri

Putting Barzal on the wing will force him to use his shot more, that's a pretty solid base for a top nine.

Edit: I assume 'systems' can greatly affect shot totals, but maybe Lambert is aware of this and will preach more quantity vs. quality than Trotz did.

Kadri got all those shots because he played over 19 minutes a game last season more than anything. He hadn't played over 18 but once prior in all of his other seasons.

Barzal does need to shoot more, but no; I am still not moving him off center. I'd put both Nelson and Palms on his wings to start the season and let Kadri anchor the second line with Lee and Wahlstrom. Those are the 6 you ideally want on your top two lines. ALL OF THEM are capable of 25-30 goals and I still advocate that if you put two good shooters with Barzal he will have a career year.

Kadri has never been as accurate as either of Brock or Kyle, even though the later has been snake bitten since becoming an Islander. Nelson isn't repeating his 22% mark or anything close to it this upcoming season but is still a 14% career shooter and Palms was close to that before arriving here. I am hoping his second half (14 goals, 12 assists, 26 points; 15% shooting in last 40 games) is an indicator that his bad luck is behind him.

I am fairly confident that Barzal can get both of them ample shots and it would be the best set of shooters he has ever had in the process, at least until Walhstrom proves himself worthy (I still think he is the best volume shooter we have and has the hardest shot). Defensively they should be adequate enough, but if they struggle that is when you can do you wing juggling.

I like Anders cleaning up on the second line from Ollie shots and I think Kadri could do wonders for the kid. That is my top 6, and I dont even care who is still here between Beau and Bailey.

Nelson- Barzal- Palmieri
Lee- Kadri- Wahlstrom

Pageau is still our best face off guy, so I am not moving him off the 3rd line either. Bellows gets a chance to make that line with whomever is left between AB and Josh on his wings.

Sure, Parise can be in the 3rd line mix, but for me I put him on the 4th to add some much needed punch there.

Bellows-Pageau-Beauvillier
Parise- Cizikas-Clutterbuck

If Beau is gone too then perhaps we have some change for a Rodrigues or another FA.

Will Lambert increase the minutes for the top end guys??

Regardless, this is where I am at lineup wise....

 

[Mr Misunderstood]

"When you have time, you use it."

We get it Lou, but you don't have to be that deliberate.

 

[eoin92]

"When you have time, you use it."

We get it Lou, but you don't have to be that deliberate.

I’d rather him be deliberate than go all mike milbury, running into the stands, hitting people with shoes.

 

[periferal]

Don’t think of Toews as a cap dump. That thought process is not nuanced enough. Toews was moved in part as planning for the expansion draft. The Isles were going to go 7-3-1 with their protection list. Pelech, Pulock and Mayfield were going to be the 3 D protected. Just look back at Trotz comments about the D if you have any doubts about those 3 being protected. Lou knew he couldn’t be in a position to move Leddy and Toews in the same off season. So Toews went first and Leddy followed him out the following off season. That was the plan.

But really...Toews was a cap dump more than an expansion draft trade, and here's why...

Because of the cap situation in the summer of 2020 the Isles couldn't afford Toews for 20-21, so he had to be dealt then and thus it was really more of a cap dump.

Think about it another way...Who in their right mind would protect Mayfield over Toews in any expansion draft? No rational/sane/qualified GM would do that simply based on talent. However because Lou backed us up against the cap prior Toews had to be dealt simply because of the cap.

I mean if going into the Seattle expansion draft the Isles had Mayfield signed at 1.45/year and Toews at 4.1/year, you're keeping Toews. The fact that Lou didn't manage the cap well enough to even get to that point is the issue.

Had Lou managed the cap better than we could've kept Toews and traded Mayfield simply due to the expansion draft...And we'd have a more talented defense today.

 

[periferal]

On another note I was thinking about Milano and I bet he’s already signed with the Isles.

Anaheim cut him loose because his qualifying offer was too high and his dance chairs are being filled up. If someone else were seriously interested, think he would’ve already officially signed with another team. He’s not exactly in a great bargaining position. I bet Lou told he and his agent not to talk or the deal is off.

This is partly why some associate Lou with a mafia figure...

Because everything must be so secretive the way you figure out who Lou has signed is by how quiet things are around them. Oh no one's reported on Parise for a month? He must be an Islander.

It almost feels like the players in question have been kidnapped by Lou and are in danger.

 

[MJF]

You've offered nothing to support this theory.

Here's how it works:

Toews was an Islander Lou traded him to the Avs Toews racked up points Toews won a Cup LOU SUCKS!

This is all you need to know. Nothing else matters.

 

[MJF]

I think Kadri is still unsigned and we do not even have a framework in place with his agent.

 

[PK Cronin]

It’s not a theory, Toews is one of the best defenders in the league and Lou subsequently overpaid for Romanov trying to fix the mistake.

People want to keep harping on Toews point totals IN HIS SECOND YEAR IN THE LEAGUE. Realistically his first full season, and was fantastic in the playoffs too boot. Obviously Sakic saw something in him that most fans had thought we would be getting after watching Toews develop in college and the A.

Again, these aren’t theories, find anyone of note that thinks the Islanders did well in that trade. An overwhelming majority wouldn’t just say Sakic won that trade but took Lou to the woodshed.

Literally, he traded a 13th overall for Romanov and I have people telling me Toews was worth only two second rounders. f***ing yikes

Nobody at the time thought that, so it's irrelevant. You're arguing about how he didn't get more for a player that hadn't performed enough to get more at the time he was traded. Now, after he has had a couple good seasons in Colorado, you're arguing that Lamoriello should have known the player he'd become and the return sucked while ignoring everything else that forced that trade to happen.

And it is a theory, there's no proof that a 26 year old Toews would've broken out in the same way as he did with Colorado. Your comparison to Dobson is silly, one is at an age where they're expected to see growth and the other wasn't. You're also ignoring the fact the team better without Toews in year one, so obviously Lamoriello knew something and maybe the Romanov move is to make up for losing Leddy...but you won't accept that I'm sure.

 

[doublechili]

The "benefit of hindsight" takes re: Toews....

The cap issues were the result of Covid. Bad on Lou for not seeing that coming? If not for Covid Toews could have stayed until at least the expansion draft.

But, re: the expansion draft, if Lou lost Toews "for nothing" people would be complaining that he didn't trade him and at least get a couple of picks! If it was down to Toews vs Mayfield at that time, I think the smart move would have been to keep Mayfield. Toews is only 1 year younger than Mayfield, and he was coming off a very mediocre playoffs and was set to make $4M versus the $1.4M that Mayfield makes. Factor in Mayfield as a big, surly RHD and at the time it seemed like the correct decision.

 

[saintunspecified]

I think Kadri is still unsigned and we do not even have a framework in place with his agent.

Back when I was dating (thank god that's over) I had this kind of weird undefined thing with this woman who was... very frustrated with her boyfriend... most of my friends thought we were dating, but i certainly never announced we were dating, because we really weren't quite dating. we were just hanging out a lot in a way that wasn't not romantic. A very wise friend put it this way, she was keeping me around her bus stop just in case her other rider, which she didn't get what she wanetd from but was still commited to, got off.

i think the avs are still in kadri's bus, and kadri is keeping the isles at the bus stop. honestly, who can blame him?

i apologize for the tortured analogy.

 

[IslandersFan17]

Nobody at the time thought that, so it's irrelevant. You're arguing about how he didn't get more for a player that hadn't performed enough to get more at the time he was traded. Now, after he has had a couple good seasons in Colorado, you're arguing that Lamoriello should have known the player he'd become and the return sucked while ignoring everything else that forced that trade to happen.

And it is a theory, there's no proof that a 26 year old Toews would've broken out in the same way as he did with Colorado. Your comparison to Dobson is silly, one is at an age where they're expected to see growth and the other wasn't. You're also ignoring the fact the team better without Toews in year one, so obviously Lamoriello knew something and maybe the Romanov move is to make up for losing Leddy...but you won't accept that I'm sure.

The team was better? And yes, the job of a GM to to be able to assess his assets. I mean shit, isn’t that what drafting is? Projecting what a player will become based on variety of factors? The man had a close up look at Toews and didn’t seem to think he could get more for a guy who showed very good ability in his first full NHL season, both regular season and playoffs.

 

[Lights911]

Here's how it works:

Toews was an Islander Lou traded him to the Avs Toews racked up points Toews won a Cup LOU SUCKS!

This is all you need to know. Nothing else matters.

I mean, Toews was a very good Islander in his short time here and has only really started getting league-wide recognition because of his point totals. But it doesn't mean Lou should be exempt from criticism. He signed Hickey for 2.5 million, Komarov for 3 million and Pageau for 5 million and then got hit with a flat cap. All of this together forced the Toews trade. So in the end some of it is on Lou and some of it is on circumstance.

 

[doublechili]

we were just hanging out a lot in a way that wasn't not romantic

That should be the title of a book or a movie. Or at minimum, on a t shirt.

 

[IslandersFan17]

I mean, Toews was a very good Islander in his short time here and has only really started getting league-wide recognition because of his point totals. But it doesn't mean Lou should be exempt from criticism. He signed Hickey for 2.5 million, Komarov for 3 million and Pageau for 5 million and then got hit with a flat cap. All of this together forced the Toews trade. So in the end some of it is on Lou and some of it is on circumstance.

Well said

 

[4Cups Want More]

To say that Toews is one of the best defenders in the league to me is not understanding the word DEFENDER. Toews had a breakout OFFENSIVE season for a defender last year and he can be considered an excellent offensive defenseman. The previous year he was very good but not exceptional. He is however, not a good defender. He is not physical at all and he makes a lot of mistakes in his own end.

My guess is that Barry wanted to keep Mayfield around as much as Lou did as Barry likes to be tough to play against.

Protecting a lead in the last two minutes of a game I am sure anyone here would rather have Mayfield on the ice than Toews.

We still went to the 7th game of the ECF without Toews. The problem is that we then lost Leddy as well.

I believe that In a perfect world we would have been able to keep Toews and let him develope as an Islander but this is not a perfect world.

Let's hope that Raty turns into the player that we hope he can be and the Toews talk will surely dissipate.

 

[4Cups Want More]

Another reason to keep Mayfield over Toews (not just for the money aspect) was that Boychuck had the eye injury and we had no physical defenders other than Mayfield.

 

[CupHolders]

But really...Toews was a cap dump more than an expansion draft trade, and here's why...

Because of the cap situation in the summer of 2020 the Isles couldn't afford Toews for 20-21, so he had to be dealt then and thus it was really more of a cap dump.

Think about it another way...Who in their right mind would protect Mayfield over Toews in any expansion draft? No rational/sane/qualified GM would do that simply based on talent. However because Lou backed us up against the cap prior Toews had to be dealt simply because of the cap.

I mean if going into the Seattle expansion draft the Isles had Mayfield signed at 1.45/year and Toews at 4.1/year, you're keeping Toews. The fact that Lou didn't manage the cap well enough to even get to that point is the issue.

Had Lou managed the cap better than we could've kept Toews and traded Mayfield simply due to the expansion draft...And we'd have a more talented defense today.

Lou wasn't perfect with the CAP. No GM (Sakic included) has been perfect when it comes to managing their cap. But remarking that Lou did not do "well enough" at the same time as ignoring unprecedented and historic events like COVID and the flat cap just makes your argument seem unreasonable.

Again, the NHL backtracked from their OWN announcement around the trade deadline that the CAP was going to be ~3M to ~8M higher for the following year. At no time has the NHL ever backtracked from those trade deadline (after 80% of the season is already in the books) estimates.

Counting on that (trade deadline guidance) CAP bump, is not to be confused with one blindly STARTING the season and expecting the CAP to just go up for the following year. Although, that has historically been a very safe bet too.

But again, these arguments mostly seem to be confusing perfection with proficient.