Roster/Rumors/Speculation/Trade Talk - 2023-24: Hotel California

[IslandersFan17]

As PK mentioned, this has been beaten to death. Including responses to this kind of take.

And in addition to the expansion draft details provided above by @danteipp, Lou only had cap space to keep two of Barzal, Pulock, and Toews in the fold. Only two.

Sure, we all liked Toews. Sure, we all wished something could have been done to keep him.

But his lower price tag and still uncertain upside made him the most marketable of all the guys Lou could have pawned off. Heck, he prolly did a goodin' for Toews sending him to exactly the type of contender where his skillset would thrive.

In fact, knowing that Lou's back was up against a wall at the time, him pulling off two seconds was a friggin' coup. That was a win-win situation for all involved.

And the numbers Toews has been putting up with Colorado... You think he'd have been doing that here? Or at about any other address in the NHL?

Hell, even our Sebastian Aho would be putting up 35-40 points for that Avalanche team.

One has simply got to keep a sense of proportion when analyzing these things.

Cap concerns make EVERY TEAM IN THE LEAGUE sacrifice guys they'd rather keep. That's part of the GMing game and it requires constant juggling. It's what creates the parity the league so desperately wanted to see after years and years of powerhouses winning a whole lot of cups in a short periods of time.

Summary:
Lou got a maximum return for a guy the cap and expansion draft were no longer allowing us to keep - and everybody knew it.

He didn’t get a maximum return, so the summary is bullshit

 

[cjdv16]

Only a fool thinks watching baseball is more exciting than watching lacrosse

Speak for yourself.

You sound like a true long islander. Lacrosse is only slightly worse to watch than basketball and only slightly better than soccer. At least in basketball there’s the occasional dunk.

 

[LeapOnOver]

I believe I espoused that we'd be adding a winger for Barzal and two LHDs - from the outside. I have not believed that the organization would be silly enough to think Salo or Aho are guys you have in the top six if you're going for the Cup. I also did not think the organization would risk going into the season with one of say Bellows or Wahlstrom being its initial answer for a spot on the wing with Barzal.

Naturally, what I espoused included additions per free agency or trades. I was long a good 70% certain that we'd be dealing our first rounder to answer one of these questions, lowering my belief in that possibility to 50/50 the day or two before the draft.

It's August 15th and YES, to date only 1/3rd of my espousement has come true.

On the other hand, we didn't really know what was truly happening last summer until roughly September 1st.

Is more coming before this team opens its camp?



Interesting.

I pride myself on attempting to analyze things with logic, reason, and understanding while remaining free of emotion as much as humanly possible.

Thus, my use of actual "results" being the critical portion of my statements on analyzing in how much I'd give Snow credit for our current success and value.

The greatest point of disagreement here is the take of those who feel that Snow's acquisition of players along the way who are part of our current success automatically gives him some portion of the credit (in some people's eyes, most of the credit) while the fact is that he SHOULD have acquired a whole lot more along the way through all the losing done in his tenure and that all those boys contributing now didn't get more than one second round appearance in 10 years with him in charge only to immediately hit the second round and then two conference finals once he was out.

The before and after results are downright damning of all he did here.

I don't write that with any emotion. I largely found myself supporting and rooting for Snow over all the years, liking many of the drafts and draftees over the course of time. I went to bat for a lot of his moves where plenty of folks in Islanderville weren't all that enthused.

But as a fan of the team, a certain amount of that support is automatically given.

Oh crap, am I letting the emotions sift in?

Except logically, when a team has that many players on its roster from the previous management, he absolutely gets some credit for the success. Can argue how much until we are blue in the face. If you go back and read your initial post (I reread but don't feel like bringing up another window to quote) you stated you would give Snow credit for the success we have. Now, you are further defining what you personally think credit should be and how much you'll give (which based on your previous statement is none). So which is it...are you giving him some credit or zero at all. If you are giving him any credit I no longer need to discuss it with you because I'll be satisfied. If you are giving him zero credit, I don't think you are being logical and not sure how you could even argue otherwise, unless you start pigeonholing how you decide to give credit.

PS. For the bold, you do that often and I recognize it. That's why you are one of the posters I like to read comments from, and why I'm so surprised you aren't doing it here

He didn’t get a maximum return, so the summary is bullshit

Two seconds for Toews at the time was for sure maximum return. In fact, if Toews had played on the Isles, he'd still be worth two seconds. Like Chap says, no way he puts up those numbers here.

 

[IslandersFan17]

Except logically, when a team has that many players on its roster from the previous management, he absolutely gets some credit for the success. Can argue how much until we are blue in the face. If you go back and read your initial post (I reread but don't feel like bringing up another window to quote) you stated you would give Snow credit for the success we have. Now, you are further defining what you personally think credit should be and how much you'll give (which based on your previous statement is none). So which is it...are you giving him some credit or zero at all. If you are giving him any credit I no longer need to discuss it with you because I'll be satisfied. If you are giving him zero credit, I don't think you are being logical and not sure how you could even argue otherwise, unless you start pigeonholing how you decide to give credit.


Two seconds for Toews at the time was for sure maximum return. In fact, if Toews had played on the Isles, he'd still be worth two seconds. Like Chap says, no way he puts up those numbers here.

“No way he puts up those numbers here” is hyperbole

 

[LeapOnOver]

“No way he puts up those numbers here” is hyperbole

Really now...your stance, for the record is, Toews would have been a Norris candidate here and put up 50pts? Who is being hyperbolic now?

 

[IslandersFan17]

Really now...your stance, for the record is, Toews would have been a Norris candidate here and put up 50pts? Who is being hyperbolic now?

The kid was on an upward trajectory and very much showing this level of play. There is a reason Sakic was after him. Did the supporting cast of the Avs help inflate the numbers, sure, but Dobson put up how many points?

But sure, Toews absolutely wouldn’t have continued to develop here lol, okay then.

 

[LeapOnOver]

The kid was on an upward trajectory and very much showing this level of play. There is a reason Sakic was after him. Did the supporting cast of the Avs help inflate the numbers, sure, but Dobson put up how many points?

But sure, Toews absolutely wouldn’t have continued to develop here lol, okay then.

I like at how you laugh at your deranged twisting of comments. I laugh at them too. You are so amusing!

So now the numbers were inflated due to the supporting cast. So I wasn't using hyperbole. Thanks for the confirmation. Case closed.

 

[IslandersFan17]

I like at how you laugh at your deranged twisting of comments. I laugh at them too. You are so amusing!

So now the numbers were inflated due to the supporting cast. So I wasn't using hyperbole. Thanks for the confirmation. Case closed.

Yikes

 

[Foppberg]

It makes sense that he broke out with us. His style is much more suited to Avs hockey than Trotz hockey, he's absolutely loved here but I doubt we'll be able to keep him past his current contract. Dude is going to get paid.

 

[IslandersFan17]

It makes sense that he broke out with us. His style is much more suited to Avs hockey than Trotz hockey, he's absolutely loved here but I doubt we'll be able to keep him past his current contract. Dude is going to get paid.

Yeah, that system suited him, but again Dobson had 50 points in a Trotz system from the backend. Refuse to believe Toews wouldn’t hit similar marks if not better.

 

[periferal]

OMG.....the start of the season can not get here fast enough.

...So you can finally see who's actually on the team?

 

[periferal]

I have to say I regret giving a like to that post but that’s really hard to argue with.

The way that's phrased it sure sounds like you're coming into the post looking to argue. Turn down the intensity when you come to read a post and you can see it more clearly.


Just "like" things man. It's more fun.

 

[periferal]

I have yet to see anyone explain to me how the Isles could have possibly protected all four of Pelech, Pulock, Mayfield and Toews from expansion, with only three protection slots.

The Isles would have either had to probably give up a first to protect the fourth defenseman (either Toews or Mayfield), lose Mayfield for nothing to expansion, or pay Toews and then trade Mayfield prior to expansion and find a viable replacement for him.

And while in a vacuum Toews is better than Mayfield, Mayfield's salary allowed the Isles a lot of cap flexibility and he brings a physical element to the ice.

Upcoming expansion ultimately screwed the Isles, because otherwise Lou probably finds a way to keep Toews. Or maybe he still moves Toews but retains Leddy, which would have helped last season.

Of course in the Leddy deal, the Isles got the pick used for Raty, so we have that going for us. But I assume some will simply discount that and say the Isles got lucky.

This post is on target. I think most people would look at it and say...Well based on this Lou had no choice but to trade Toews because he couldn't afford him at the time and also couldn't lose him for nothing to Seattle.

At face value...That all checks out.

However you have to be more nuanced than that. Toews was traded to Colorado in October of 2020. At that time the Isles basically had no cap space and Toews was arbitration-eligible meaning that he had lots of leverage in contract talks. After he was traded Toews got a 4 year deal worth 4.1M/year.

Now here's where the problem is...It's Lou that got is into that cap crunch to begin with.

Two years prior to this in the summer of 2018, Lou handed out a 4-year/12 million dollar deal to Leo Komarov (much less the 4-year/10 million dollar deal to Hickey). That's 3M/year and if Lou doesn't do that we can keep Toews and instead trade Mayfield.

Then you're keeping Pulock, Pelech, and Toews in the expansion draft, and today you could have a defense of Pelech, Pulock, Toews, Dobson, and Romanov.

Quite frankly that's the problem with Lou - None of the trades he's made are bad in and of themselves, but they lack big-picture thinking. It's almost as if he cannot see how his moves will affect things 2-3 years down the line. He just keeps trading 1st round picks and resigning every UFA we have without fully realizing the full value of not just high draft picks, and more importantly...Cap space.

That's why I think at the end of the day whatever respect Lou has garnered from being a GM over the past 40 years, that is clouding some people's view on him today. Let's be perfectly honest...Every human becomes bad at their job at some point and most can't do their job well at 79 years old. If we had a 1st time GM who made the exact same moves the past 4 years that Lou has I guarantee they would be met with a lot more criticism.

Again I want to be clear...As of August 2022 Lou is a decent GM. I just don't think he's this god that many fanboys who like making "Loufather" memes make him out to be, and that Toews situation I mapped out above is a prime example of what I feel the way I do about him.

 

[SayItAintSoJohnny]

This post is on target. I think most people would look at it and say...Well based on this Lou had no choice but to trade Toews because he couldn't afford him at the time and also couldn't lose him for nothing to Seattle.

At face value...That all checks out.

However you have to be more nuanced than that. Toews was traded to Colorado in October of 2020. At that time the Isles basically had no cap space and Toews was arbitration-eligible meaning that he had lots of leverage in contract talks. After he was traded Toews got a 4 year deal worth 4.1M/year.

Now here's where the problem is...It's Lou that got is into that cap crunch to begin with.

Two years prior to this in the summer of 2018, Lou handed out a 4-year/12 million dollar deal to Leo Komarov (much less the 4-year/10 million dollar deal to Hickey). That's 3M/year and if Lou doesn't do that we can keep Toews and instead trade Mayfield.

Then you're keeping Pulock, Pelech, and Toews in the expansion draft, and today you could have a defense of Pelech, Pulock, Toews, Dobson, and Romanov.

Quite frankly that's the problem with Lou - None of the trades he's made are bad in and of themselves, but they lack big-picture thinking. It's almost as if he cannot see how his moves will affect things 2-3 years down the line. He just keeps trading 1st round picks and resigning every UFA we have without fully realizing the full value of not just high draft picks, and more importantly...Cap space.

That's why I think at the end of the day whatever respect Lou has garnered from being a GM over the past 40 years, that is clouding some people's view on him today. Let's be perfectly honest...Every human becomes bad at their job at some point and most can't do their job well at 79 years old. If we had a 1st time GM who made the exact same moves the past 4 years that Lou has I guarantee they would be met with a lot more criticism.

Again I want to be clear...As of August 2022 Lou is a decent GM. I just don't think he's this god that many fanboys who like making "Loufather" memes make him out to be, and that Toews situation I mapped out above is a prime example of what I feel the way I do about him.

Excellent post, couldn't agree more.

 

[Glory Days]

This post is on target. I think most people would look at it and say...Well based on this Lou had no choice but to trade Toews because he couldn't afford him at the time and also couldn't lose him for nothing to Seattle.

At face value...That all checks out.

However you have to be more nuanced than that. Toews was traded to Colorado in October of 2020. At that time the Isles basically had no cap space and Toews was arbitration-eligible meaning that he had lots of leverage in contract talks. After he was traded Toews got a 4 year deal worth 4.1M/year.

Now here's where the problem is...It's Lou that got is into that cap crunch to begin with.

Two years prior to this in the summer of 2018, Lou handed out a 4-year/12 million dollar deal to Leo Komarov (much less the 4-year/10 million dollar deal to Hickey). That's 3M/year and if Lou doesn't do that we can keep Toews and instead trade Mayfield.

Then you're keeping Pulock, Pelech, and Toews in the expansion draft, and today you could have a defense of Pelech, Pulock, Toews, Dobson, and Romanov.

Quite frankly that's the problem with Lou - None of the trades he's made are bad in and of themselves, but they lack big-picture thinking. It's almost as if he cannot see how his moves will affect things 2-3 years down the line. He just keeps trading 1st round picks and resigning every UFA we have without fully realizing the full value of not just high draft picks, and more importantly...Cap space.

That's why I think at the end of the day whatever respect Lou has garnered from being a GM over the past 40 years, that is clouding some people's view on him today. Let's be perfectly honest...Every human becomes bad at their job at some point and most can't do their job well at 79 years old. If we had a 1st time GM who made the exact same moves the past 4 years that Lou has I guarantee they would be met with a lot more criticism.

Again I want to be clear...As of August 2022 Lou is a decent GM. I just don't think he's this god that many fanboys who like making "Loufather" memes make him out to be, and that Toews situation I mapped out above is a prime example of what I feel the way I do about him.

Don’t think of Toews as a cap dump. That thought process is not nuanced enough. Toews was moved in part as planning for the expansion draft. The Isles were going to go 7-3-1 with their protection list. Pelech, Pulock and Mayfield were going to be the 3 D protected. Just look back at Trotz comments about the D if you have any doubts about those 3 being protected. Lou knew he couldn’t be in a position to move Leddy and Toews in the same off season. So Toews went first and Leddy followed him out the following off season. That was the plan.

 

[Throttle]

Don’t think of Toews as a cap dump. That thought process is not nuanced enough. Toews was moved in part as planning for the expansion draft. The Isles were going to go 7-3-1 with their protection list. Pelech, Pulock and Mayfield were going to be the 3 D protected. Just look back at Trotz comments about the D if you have any doubts about those 3 being protected. Lou knew he couldn’t be in a position to move Leddy and Toews in the same off season. So Toews went first and Leddy followed him out the following off season. That was the plan.

But seven years earlier when Lou was the GM of the TML, he already secretly overpaid guys on the Island so he wouldn’t have cap space later on…

 

[Throttle]

B2B GM of the year winner as the GM of the Isles - voted on by the other 31 GMs and 5 media members. Hmm…guess those people have a clue.

Nope, it was all Trotz. So, Sakic wins and it’s all Sakic, not Bednar. Too funny. To a certain percentage of the Isles fanbase, they deserve another Wang/Snow show…

 

[Islanders4Cups]

Now here's where the problem is...It's Lou that got is into that cap crunch to begin with.

Two years prior to this in the summer of 2018, Lou handed out a 4-year/12 million dollar deal to Leo Komarov (much less the 4-year/10 million dollar deal to Hickey). That's 3M/year and if Lou doesn't do that we can keep Toews and instead trade Mayfield.

Then you're keeping Pulock, Pelech, and Toews in the expansion draft, and today you could have a defense of Pelech, Pulock, Toews, Dobson, and Romanov.

Lou went for a cup with the team he mostly inherited and coach he hired. He knew he had a contender and tried to win it with the current group and arguably fell 1-2 goals short of perhaps winning it all. I will never fault him for it and he went against the grain doing it. Brilliant!

Unfortunately we are experiencing the consequences of that approach and MAY for years to come. Was it worth it? I will say yes and will Ignore all this Monday morning QB BS. Sure we can pick apart every action, but the net was they got to the brink of winning it all and ran into a dynasty team.

As for the future, I think Lou has to continue down this path And try to win with this group NOW which is becoming more and more unlikely unless he fixes their #1 deficiency (top line) NOW. The alternative is what he had an option to do when he arrived here. All out rebuild. It will be coming if this team fails as they did last season. Either way, Lou has made the most of what he had here. He wasnt perfect but closer than anyone else took this team in almost 40 years. .

As for the Toews argument, I will just laugh. No one expected Toews to do what he did last season. Good for him. At the time most felt Lou maximized the return AND that trade is not fully decided yet until the assets Lou received play out.

 

[The Real JT]

I have to say I regret giving a like to that post but that’s really hard to argue with.

The way that's phrased it sure sounds like you're coming into the post looking to argue. Turn down the intensity when you come to read a post and you can see it more clearly.


Just "like" things man. It's more fun.

Dude. I liked your post and then added a little sarcasm directed at my disappointment in Lou’s inactivity. While I occasionally try some dime store analysis, my posts are typically more about making a joke and throwing in a healthy dose of sarcasm.

Truth be told, my take on this team is closer to yours than many others here. Don’t shoot the messenger.

 

[IslandersFan17]

B2B GM of the year winner as the GM of the Isles - voted on by the other 31 GMs and 5 media members. Hmm…guess those people have a clue.

Nope, it was all Trotz. So, Sakic wins and it’s all Sakic, not Bednar. Too funny. To a certain percentage of the Isles fanbase, they deserve another Wang/Snow show…

You’re trying way too hard. You realize Trotz also won the Jack Adams as well.

 

[JKP]

When Lou (and shortly thereafter Trotz) got here he had no idea what they had. They knew the culture sucked, but they had no idea who or what the players really were. He brought in Leo for culture reasons. He probably had to overpay because our team sucked the year before. Call that an investment on culture.

At that time, Toews was a nothing burger. He'd be 5 months away from debuting in the NHL and hadn't played in the AHL for 7 months after a shoulder surgery. So I doubt they were planning on anything with him when they gave Leo and Hickey those deals. He was just a guy in the farm system with a questionable shoulder.

He was ultimately traded over money due to the cap being flat. It was likely him or Leddy, and he was a lot easier to move because Leddy was owed more cash ($6.5M & $7M) than his large 5+M cap hit. No one was giving two seconds for Leddy. Also, Leddy had a much better playoffs in the bubble than Toews did.

Ideally, if the cap hadn't flattened from C19 (and they'd been told it was going up quite a bit), he probably would have signed and kept Toews and figured out what to do around the expansion draft the following summer.

Personally, I think Lou did what he could with the cards he had.

 

[Seph]

He didn’t get a maximum return, so the summary is bullshit

When was the last time a 26 year old defenseman with a career high of 28 points was traded in the offseason for signifcantly more than what Lou got? If Lou traded two 2nd rounders for a player with that resume, these boards would go ape shit. I liked Toews a lot; was sad he got moved and am happy for him that he has developed so well, but acting like he should have had some astronomical trade value is revisionist history.

It is exceedingly rare for a player to become this level of player at age 28. And even if we still want to act like this was a probable development curve for him, why didn't any of the other 29 GMs offer more for him?

 

[PK Cronin]

He didn’t get a maximum return, so the summary is bullshit

Monday morning quarterbacking. He did get a maximum return, because that was the maximum return available otherwise Toews would've been on another team.

 

[IslandersFan17]

Monday morning quarterbacking. He did get a maximum return, because that was the maximum return available otherwise Toews would've been on another team.

Or he just got taken by Sakic.

When was the last time a 26 year old defenseman with a career high of 28 points was traded in the offseason for signifcantly more than what Lou got? If Lou traded two 2nd rounders for a player with that resume, these boards would go ape shit. I liked Toews a lot; was sad he got moved and am happy for him that he has developed so well, but acting like he should have had some astronomical trade value is revisionist history.

It is exceedingly rare for a player to become this level of player at age 28. And even if we still want to act like this was a probable development curve for him, why didn't any of the other 29 GMs offer more for him?

He traded the 13th overall for Romanov what do you mean if he traded two seconds for a player like that… he literally did worse lmao

 

[saintunspecified]

When Lou (and shortly thereafter Trotz) got here he had no idea what they had. They knew the culture sucked, but they had no idea who or what the players really were. He brought in Leo for culture reasons. He probably had to overpay because our team sucked the year before. Call that an investment on culture.

Honestly, I don't think the culture in the locker room 'sucked'. I think the lack of accountability/professionalism in the front office was definitely a big problem, and to say that Doug Weight was in over his headis a massive understatement. But for all Jack Capuano's in-game shortcomings (and there were many), he was a functional, professional, coach who had enough of a reputation (and humility) to be proeprly employed ever since... unlike Weight. His room was functional, and it's not his fault it was hurt by the loss of Nielsen (Okposo too, but mostly Nielsen). The Tavares situation hanging over the head of a till-then unaccountable GM was a massive distraction, but that would affect any room.

If the culture really was so messed up, I don't think it could have improved so much in 1 year with remarkably little roster turnover. The Trotz effect was much more strategic & tactical, but I really don't think his locker room management (beyond the fact that he had Stanley Cup winning clout, which is a big factor) was all that different than Capuano. The shift in team leadership from Nielsen to Lee was definitely compromised by the Tavares distraction. But, again, I don't think you can blame Capuano (or even Weight) for that.