Roster Building XX: How Many Patents Does Your GM Have?

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

If it comes down to a choice between the two, it isn't just Guentzal (terms) vs Nachos (terms). It's Guentzal plus whatever the trade return for Nachos is vs. Nachos plus what we could pick up in free agency with the extra cap space beyond what Guentzal and the return for Nachos would eat up. I could see those two unknown "pluses" factoring into the decision. Enough moving parts to keep me from suggesting I know what the best move might be . . .

I'm personally neutral on the matter but lean slightly in favor of Guentzel. The fact that Carolina did not give up a 1st and cleared $4.5M per year in cap space over 2 years makes letting Guentzel get paid elsewhere not nearly as painful a price as it normally would be if they make the choice to gamble on Necas instead.

 

[HisIceness]

Unless Fletcher is going to be the mouthpiece or something, I'm not interested.

 

[WreckingCrew]

And we talk about Necas never meshing anyone and putting it on him. I suspect that’s a reciprocal thing. Other than Kuzy he hasn’t had a very talented center since the one year with Tro and Necas has improved since then. I think at some point we just left him the second line and just ran through everyone else to see what sticks. Bunting couldn’t even get the system, that’s not on Necas. No one could get KK out of his funk. Necas wasn’t bad with Drury I thought, Drury just keeps it simple and let Necas carry the puck. That’s probably a big part of finding “chemistry” with him.

I would’ve liked to see Necas get more time with Aho. I can remember some very easy goals scored just from their speed together. Obviously Rod wasn’t a big fan or just wanted to spread the depth out as best he could. Necas can create by himself so it makes some sense that he’s the guy that gets bounced to create that depth.

Little bit of column A, little bit of column B. Linemates slumping and meshing obviously isn't entirely on him. At the same time his tunnel vision often led to unforced turnovers, skating into trouble, or instances where he just ignored wide-open teammates. But damn when he's on he can be a game breaker, kinda like Svech. But seeing as we're hitched to RBA and he seems to struggle with Necas-types, might be time to move on regardless. Just like I think Aho could easily be a 100 pt player on another team or with different coaching schemes, but our dump & chase possession style seems to neuter that somewhat. It's why I'm largely ambivalent to whether or not we keep him depending on Guentz, a potential trade return, or his contract asks. I'd like to see him reach his potential because it's a high ceiling, but he may never get past inconsistent Skinner or thrive under Rod

 

[Murzu]

Hi friends. I enjoy some torture so I hope that I came to the right place.

Mikko Rantanen from my Avs for
Martin Necas, 2024 1st and 2025 1st.

I'd imagine you wouldn't have trouble re-signing Rants to something like 12,5M x 8 yrs deal. There is your 50 goal guy with awesome playoff pedigree which we have a hard time fitting cap-wise.

Avs get cap relief, a very good replacement in Necas and some very valuable futures.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Hi friends. I enjoy some torture so I hope that I came to the right place.

Mikko Rantanen from my Avs for
Martin Necas, 2024 1st and 2025 1st.

I'd imagine you wouldn't have trouble re-signing Rants to something like 12,5M x 8 yrs deal. There is your 50 goal guy with awesome playoff pedigree which we have a hard time fitting cap-wise.

Avs get cap relief, a very good replacement in Necas and some very valuable futures.

Is trading all of that really worth saving 3 million in cap space(the difference between his current and future money)?

I don’t think so with a player of rants caliber.

For Carolina it’s interesting. we would be paying for rants production with MacKinnon and then he will play without Mac. We can afford it with a bunch of ELCs coming in 25-26.

 

[ElmCityGuy]

Hi friends. I enjoy some torture so I hope that I came to the right place.

Mikko Rantanen from my Avs for
Martin Necas, 2024 1st and 2025 1st.

I'd imagine you wouldn't have trouble re-signing Rants to something like 12,5M x 8 yrs deal. There is your 50 goal guy with awesome playoff pedigree which we have a hard time fitting cap-wise.

Avs get cap relief, a very good replacement in Necas and some very valuable futures.

I'd love for the Canes to have Mikko but I don't see them paying anyone on the planet more than Aho. If he would accept 9.7 a year then maybe it could happen.

Hope Landeskog returns.. along with Hoglander one of the coolest names in hockey.

 

[bleedgreen]

I’d love Rants but that’s one first rounder too many for me.

 

[Murzu]

Is trading all of that really worth saving 3 million in cap space(the difference between his current and future money)?

I don’t think so with a player of rants caliber.

For Carolina it’s interesting. we would be paying for rants production with MacKinnon and then he will play without Mac. We can afford it with a bunch of ELCs coming in 25-26.

Well, I think that would be a package I'd be fine with. Makar will need a huge deal in a few years and our depth needs a lot of boost - we've been top heavy most of our contending years.

If Necas is something like 8x8 it's 4,5M cap space compared to Rantanen's 12,5x8. For Avs it's much needed. We might get cap penalties with this Nichushkin bs too. Two first rounders would offset the value difference between those two players.

Mikko actually produces extremely well if MacKinnon isn't in the line up. Wouldn't worry about that.

I'd love for the Canes to have Mikko but I don't see them paying anyone on the planet more than Aho. If he would accept 9.7 a year then maybe it could happen.

Hope Landeskog returns.. along with Hoglander one of the coolest names in hockey.

If Mikko would sign for that, I'd rather the Avs keep him. He won't, unfortunately.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

If Mikko would sign for that, I'd rather the Avs keep him. He won't, unfortunately.

Which makes it extremely unlikely he'd re-sign with Carolina after the season and thus makes this a difficult proposition. The Canes haven't been known to give out contracts like that.

It's not about him as a player or the deal you propose, more a statement of how Dundon has operated that would make me skeptical. I'd love to have Rants on the Canes.

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

Which makes it extremely unlikely he'd re-sign with Carolina after the season and thus makes this a difficult proposition. The Canes haven't been known to give out contracts like that.

It's not about him as a player or the deal you propose, more a statement of how Dundon has operated that would make me skeptical. I'd love to have Rants on the Canes.

Rantanen is a player worthy of making an exception for, arguably even more so than Guentzel. Dundon would pay, no question.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Rantanen is a player worthy of making an exception for, arguably even more so than Guentzel. Dundon would pay, no question.

The poster said 12.5M x 8. There certainly is a question as to whether Dundon would sign him to that.

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

The poster said 12.5M x 8. There certainly is a question as to whether Dundon would sign him to that.

Considering the rising cap and the expiring Orlov contract, I think he would.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Considering the rising cap and the expiring Orlov contract, I think he would.

He might, I just don't think it's a slam dunk. Rants will be 29 to start his next deal so it puts him into that age bracket where this front office has shied away from long term deals. Until it happens, I'l remain skeptical. It's not a complaint though, just discussion how he's operated to date.

I'd love to get Rantanen here though.

 

[bleedgreen]

Until Dundon shows he would sign a true long term ufa that isn’t Aho when he’s 26, it’s hard to believe any player like this will ever be an option for us.

 

[Svechhammer]

Until Dundon shows he would sign a true long term ufa that isn’t Aho when he’s 26, it’s hard to believe any player like this will ever be an option for us.

And this is why I'm paying attention to the Guentzel situation. If we don't bring him back because of the sticker shock, I don't know if our organizational mindset will ever get us over the hump outside of benefitting from pure dumb luck. We've been begging for elite talent ever since Dundon took over, if we let it slip away now I'm not sure this core will get that chance again.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

And this is why I'm paying attention to the Guentzel situation. If we don't bring him back because of the sticker shock, I don't know if our organizational mindset will ever get us over the hump outside of benefitting from pure dumb luck. We've been begging for elite talent ever since Dundon took over, if we let it slip away now I'm not sure this core will get that chance again.

Guentzel didn’t get us over the hump either way. So the guentzel situation shouldn’t mean the management team isn’t capable of getting us over the hump. Also guentzel is an extreme case of paying a UFA. 30 years old, injury history and a smaller guy. More risk there than say Reinhart

 

[Chrispy]

And this is why I'm paying attention to the Guentzel situation. If we don't bring him back because of the sticker shock, I don't know if our organizational mindset will ever get us over the hump outside of benefitting from pure dumb luck. We've been begging for elite talent ever since Dundon took over, if we let it slip away now I'm not sure this core will get that chance again.

Agreed. I know we have arguments that Trocheck's skill set fit the team perfectly, but his performance in the walk year wasn't the same as it was in the Central division year.

Guentzel not only has a skill set that fits the team well (he played very well in RBA's system) but he also had the performance in his short time with the club. He's exactly what the team needs and he fit well and played well.

There's no reason not to sign him other than sticker shock at the term and AAV.

And I say that still thinking there's a reasonable chance Necas outproduces Guentzel over the total of those 8 years. But this team needs scoring now, and Guentzel will easily outperform Necas right now.

I'd rather keep both and believe there is space to keep Necas and Guentzel and Jarvis. And even then, I think there's a need for one more top 6 forward (C, wing if Jarvis or Necas moves over to C.)

 

[bleedgreen]

And this is why I'm paying attention to the Guentzel situation. If we don't bring him back because of the sticker shock, I don't know if our organizational mindset will ever get us over the hump outside of benefitting from pure dumb luck. We've been begging for elite talent ever since Dundon took over, if we let it slip away now I'm not sure this core will get that chance again.

I don’t mean to sound gloomy but I think this build IS over. Maybe it’s time for that. I agree about Guentzel and what you’re saying there, but imo he’s gone. Which makes the move a little worthless to me, but that’s how I see rentals in the first place. High price, limited benefit unless you keep them other than to show you what your team lacks.

I’m not complaining about not signing the guys who left to contracts when I say this, it’s just an accumulated feeling that seems like it’s coming together for me recently. The timing for this build went sideways when Dougie left. We’ve been scrambling since. Finding Tony for a bargain was awesome, but we weren’t going to win with Tony on the first pair - that’s basically a year gone right there to me. Then Tro and Nino left and we replaced them by giving KK and Martinook promotions. That’s going sideways at best, and that’s a bit of an insult to the term sideways in my honest opinion. Statistically I’m sure there’s an argument that we did just fine and didn’t actually miss them but I dont believe that. That group had chemistry, and was short a few players. We have older Svech, Jarvis and Necas now but with the others gone it just felt a little short. In the end it’s a matter of timing, so again it’s not about arguing those contracts needed to be signed or whatever. Nino should’ve stayed if you’re going there, but I understood why the other two weren’t going to.

My point is this build didn’t have the right timing. All the pieces weren’t there at the same time as they needed to be. It showed in being one goal short here or there, making it seem so close but cumulatively we just were never really there. Blame it on the pp, the goalie….whatever. I think the biggest mistake now would be overpaying to hold on instead of taking a step in whatever the new direction is.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Moving on from Hamilton was a very wise move. We would scrambling a lot more with his cap hit, declining performance and injuries right now

 

[bleedgreen]

Moving on from Hamilton was a very wise move. We would scrambling a lot more with his cap hit, declining performance and injuries right now

Completely missing my point.

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

Eventually, the Canes are going to pay a late-20s/early-30s UFA long-term, but it doesn't necessarily have to be Guentzel. It's not like the trade had no utility outside of a premium forward rental. They cleared 2 years of $4.5M in cap space in that trade without giving up a 1st round pick.

 

[Chrispy]

Eventually, the Canes are going to pay a late-20s/early-30s UFA long-term, but it doesn't necessarily have to be Guentzel. It's not like the trade had no utility outside of a premium forward rental. They cleared 2 years of $4.5M in cap space in that trade without giving up a 1st round pick.

I have seen that argument repeatedly, but they need to yet again try to find a value UFA add who could fit into the top 6 if they lose Necas or Guentzel, to say nothing of losing both.

Bunting didn't fit well on the third line, but there's a good chance that on July 1 we will see glaring holes in the top 6, and one could have been filled by Bunting for a reasonable salary.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Completely missing my point.

i didnt miss it. its hard to say a build went sideways when the guy who left likely also keeps it going sideways. looking at the injuries lately, maybe even more sideways

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

I have seen that argument repeatedly, but they need to yet again try to find a value UFA add who could fit into the top 6 if they lose Necas or Guentzel, to say nothing of losing both.

Bunting didn't fit well on the third line, but there's a good chance that on July 1 we will see glaring holes in the top 6, and one could have been filled by Bunting for a reasonable salary.

I think the Canes will pick one of Guentzel or Necas to pay. I don't think the Canes are going to lose both unless they prioritize Lindholm or Reinhart in UFA instead. You don't replace scoring production like that without paying somebody the big bucks. The question is who.

 

[TheBigLetowski]

This summer sets up to be one of the Canes most interesting to date.