Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XXI

[Off Sides]

Have AV
Rent Smith
Lose in 2nd round
Keep AV

Buyout Girardi
Trade Stepan, turned to Lias, ADA
Draft Chytil
Sign Shattenkirk
Extend Smith
Extend Zbad

Keep AV
Send out Rebuild letter
Waive demote Smith
Sell McD, Miller, Nash, Grabner
Picks and Howden and such

Fire AV
Draft a bunch
Extend Skjei to basically a UFA contract
Extend all of Hayes, Name, Spoon, Vesey to UFA
Extend McLeod
Sign Claesson
Hire Quinn
Trade for McQuaid

Start season with every viable prospect in the NHL
Turn ADA into ?
Love Howden
Love Pionk
Trade Spoon for Strome
Be okay with Chytil
Have Lias not look so good in NHL
Have Howden fall off
Have Shattenkirk, Smith, Zucc check out

Is a weird timeline. (I probably missed and mixed up some stuff in there but it's still sort of like things maybe should have gone differently) Mostly post rebuild letter I see some consistency there, (sans McQuaid and ADA's usage) if they sell and draft again I'll see more, yet that whole attempted retool does leave me with some concern about their NHL player thoughts and overall where they "thought that roster was" evaluation. Post letter, the what I'd deem, a rush to get their viable prospects into the NHL also leaves me with some questions.

 

[offdacrossbar]

So based on what you just said, why would Kreider or Hayes re-sign in NY? Do they not want to win? If they don't want to win, why would the organization want to keep them?

very good question. who say they dont want to win ?

those 3 are not FA's and clearly you know that. they are roster players and key core players for this team. resigning isnt the same as marketing your self like panarin and his team are doing. heck, 13 may well want out. can you blame him ?

look at what this team is WITHOUT him in the lineup and thats with 93 and 20.

20 was drafted here. hes a nyr. period. hes like the guy for the entire organization.

93 and 13 both identify with this organization. they are also both nyrs. all 3 absolutely love living in ny. it's documented. watch you tube. NYC is the be all end all for a pro athlete. msg is tops. NYC is tops. this is the most valuable franchise in the entire league for the 4th year in a row.

any more reasons to want to stay here ?

all 3 are the defacto leaders of this team. usually your best players are the true leaders. those 3 and 30. thats your leadership.

so to answer your question, the reason they all want to stay here and play here and be paid fairly is to FINISH what they started HERE and reach the goal that all pro athlete share.

a championship.

 

[True Blue]

If they trade Zucc it’s gonna be Leetch/Graves 2.0. I’m all in on the rebuild but if he’s not bringing back a 1st I’m not interested. Still sour they traded Dubi.

So if Zucc does not fetch a 1st, you are not trading him and loosing him as a free agent for nothing at year end?

 

[True Blue]

At the rate we are scorching the earth, signing Panarin will be necessary just to make the cap floor.

How do you figure? I doubt Kreider and Zbad are getting traded. I doubt Stall, Smith or Shattenkirk can be moved. There is Skej and Henke. They will make the floor just fine.

 

[leetch99]

Calgary is a serious contender for the West . What Calgary really needs is a Lundqvist in the net . Pipedream...I know LOL . Relying on the rookie and Smith is a recipe for disaster IMO . Smith is too inconsistent and hard to say what a rookie gives you . Could be good or could be rotten . Lundqvist for Smith ? Smith is a UFA at season end . Has a NTC for this season . Getting Lundqvist to waive likely another story LOL . BTW....did Anybody watch the MacKinnon meltdown on his bench last night at Hartley ? MacKinnon was livid about something with his coach...that does not help them moving forward . Maybe somebody can post the video of the blasting . Edit... I posted a video of it in the Around the NHL thread . Serious stuff .

 

[Kendo]

why would panarin (or any other A FA) want to come to this team ??

Ask him. He's said so. You keep coming back to this point, but the rumblings are out there.

LATERAL. is not getting better. whats that saying ? rearranging chairs on the titanic....

Panarin would instantly be the best player on our team. If he were to sign here 7/1 and we moved CK on 7/2, then it would be an improvement. Not remotely lateral.

panarin isnt coming here on a promise of a rebuild in 3 years. and if he does, hes 30 before we compete anyway so that argument is null and void. over. lets file that one away under "not happening".

If he doesn't sign here, then fine. I'd even be okay with retaining CK.

However, you have been championing resigning Hayes, but wouldn't your argument against Panarin apply to him as well? If we resign Hayes, then "he's 30 before we compete anyway so that argument is null and void. over. lets file that one away under "not happening"." Seems contradictory.

the promise of 1st rounders and guys like chytl, howden, andersson, buch and shesy aint gonna cut it people.

This is year TWO of the rebuild. The promise of Kravtsov, Miller, Lundkvist, Chytil, Andersson, Howden, 5 more legit Dman prospects under 21, and three or four more 1st rounders over the next two drafts will completely change the complexion of the organization.

look what happened after moving 27. HUGE defensive void and all the other dmen got exposed.

Skjei got exposed. Was Staal just fine before last TDL? No. Smith? Nah.

Resigning Smith was the worst mistake GMJG has made. No doubt. Trading for E. Staal was pretty bad too. Shatty was a good contract on the day it was signed since he left about three years of term on the table, but boy howdy has his injuries limited his play. The defense is a dumpster fire right now, but having McD signed until age 36 wouldn't help us any. The only course of action is to wait out the bugaboo contracts

you move 13, 93 and 20 and this roster has a huge gaping festering wound that 1st rounders and artemi panarin cant heal.

If you can BOTH sign AP and trade CK, then you have made an upgrade. There is a world where we ONLY trade Hayes and still add AP.

But taking CK and AP out of the equation, you can make the argument that if you trade both Hayes and Mika, then we would have a dumpster fire up front too, and that's suboptimal.

failure.

Patience.

 

[True Blue]

I'm not saying their toxic. But for Kreider to be 30, the Rangers would need to compete for The Cup in 3 years. We see how this year is going. Do we think next year will be any better? Doubtful.

And I'm not saying to just jettison him to the moon. What I'm saying is that they should listen.

I would hope that in 3 years, they are more competitive than today. And in 5 years, Kreider will be 32 and would still be able to play the power game and lead this team.

Of course everyone is available. That includes Kreider. But his price is absolutely nothing short of a king's ransom.

 

[leetch99]

Well...no worry on Nash coming back here or anywhere according to this . I kind of thought he might end up on a contender this season in January .

Bob McKenzie just now on NBCSN:

“Absolutely no chance, zero NONE, that Rick Nash will play for an NHL team this season.”​

 

[leetch99]

I would hope that in 3 years, they are more competitive than today. And in 5 years, Kreider will be 32 and would still be able to play the power game and lead this team.

Of course everyone is available. That includes Kreider. But his price is absolutely nothing short of a king's ransom.

I agree...no point giving him away . There will always be a market for him . Just have to watch the clauses in any new deal . He will have decent value in the next 2-3 season unless he gets hurt seriously . As it sits now though he is a giant plum in a lot of eyes of contending GM's who know what he is capable of playing along side a real decent center . Rangers could get 3 nice pieces for him if Gorton is any good at all .

 

[FIRE DRURY]

this organization is a hot mess if they are looking to move 13, 93 and 20. period.

We’re a hot mess with them. Period.

 

[Gardner McKay]

Why would you put together a package to trade for a player who, when not playing with Connor McDavid, has performed worse than Kevin Hayes?

Grass is always greener. These are the same people that would trade Kreider for Puljujarvi and turn us into a team that wins 5 games a season with a U-25 roster.

 

[EpicDing]

very good question. who say they dont want to win ?

those 3 are not FA's and clearly you know that. they are roster players and key core players for this team. resigning isnt the same as marketing your self like panarin and his team are doing. heck, 13 may well want out. can you blame him ?

look at what this team is WITHOUT him in the lineup and thats with 93 and 20.

20 was drafted here. hes a nyr. period. hes like the guy for the entire organization.

93 and 13 both identify with this organization. they are also both nyrs. all 3 absolutely love living in ny. it's documented. watch you tube. NYC is the be all end all for a pro athlete. msg is tops. NYC is tops. this is the most valuable franchise in the entire league for the 4th year in a row.

any more reasons to want to stay here ?

all 3 are the defacto leaders of this team. usually your best players are the true leaders. those 3 and 30. thats your leadership.

so to answer your question, the reason they all want to stay here and play here and be paid fairly is to FINISH what they started HERE and reach the goal that all pro athlete share.

a championship.

The inherit problem with the team is the fact that Hayes, Zibanejad, and Kreider are our best players. That is not a Cup winning core. Time to try again (though I keep Zib and Kreider as complementary pieces going forward).

 

[One Winged Angel]

Regarding the bold...

I agree. I think we all wish he could have received a little more in the trade. Had Karlsson not been available I would like to believe the haul would have been significantly higher.

Yeah, I’m just not the complete homer who looks at everything with Ranger colored glasses. Some might take that as negativity, which is fine, but I’m just a realist.

I do agree, Karlsson f***ed up everything for the Rangers. If he wasn’t available McDonagh would have been the prized defender and it would have created a massive bidding war. Being a fallback option and Yzerman and Gorton starting to pick up negotiations very close to the deadline didn’t do Gorton any favors.

The rebuild part of my comment wasn't directed at you in anyway. I've seen our board (generally speaking), clamor for a rebuild for the better part of 10 years, knowing that many folks who wanted the rebuild wouldn't be able to handle it. Some could. Many can't.

No worries, I didn’t think it was, but since I was quoted I felt like continuing the discussion and explaining my stance. No harm, no foul.

The funny part is that sports fans in general are fickle, but this board generally speaking is of a younger contingent now and a lot of them don’t know what it was like to sit through the dark days. I can stand the losing, I can’t stand sitting around in the middle and trying to win and missing the playoffs by a sliver like they did every year and missing out on top talents, all the while, trading away draft picks and prospects for aging, past prime stars who had their salad days elsewhere.

Avoid that and I’ll be fine, but screwing the tank up by holding onto Hayes, Zuccarello and McQuaid for too long is not what this team needs.

 

[Off Sides]

What is an actually fair deal for Kreider's rest of this year and next?

I mean most are not going to want all futures, yet if he becomes a pure rental that is likely what they'll end up getting.

So if it were rental like stuff, late 1st, B level prospect(s), conditional 2nd/3rd next year's deadline, what is a fair compromise between that and what he is worth with the extra term remaining?

Any what would be a fair deal to extend him? The market is kind of out there, JVR and Patches are on the lesser extent of that and then Evander Kane and Couture are on the higher end, clauses and all.

I guess I'm thinking that Kreider only sold one UFA year last contract and is probably looking to cash in on what may be his last big contract, maybe his last in general and is going to be looking at the higher end there. If so, I'm not so sure the Rangers can be comfortable there, I am not.

After considering that, I don't want to turn him into rental return, but I don't want to commit to that higher end contract with clauses either.

I guess that puts me in a position where I have to make a trade if the return is higher than what his rental return will be if I think he is going to ask for that higher end contract. Yet I'm still not sure what that value is, like am I looking for the rental stuff with a little more futures added, or am I looking to get a decent roster player back than I can maybe flip for more? I'm pretty sure that is not going to be any D with top pair potential, or any F with top line potential. Pretty sure A level prospects are off the table.

I don't know, tough spot I guess, and it probably leaves me with having to make a much more complicated deal out of it.

 

[Trxjw]

I'm pretty solidly on the side of keeping Kreider unless we get a monster offer, but adding Panarin for free while adding the assets for Kreider is certainly an interesting talking point.

You gotta think a lot of teams would love to add Kreids. The question is can we get one of them to overpay?

 

[East Coast Bias]

Well...no worry on Nash coming back here or anywhere according to this . I kind of thought he might end up on a contender this season in January .

Bob McKenzie just now on NBCSN:

“Absolutely no chance, zero NONE, that Rick Nash will play for an NHL team this season.”​

Hopefully it's just because he's enjoying retirement that much, and not due to concussions.

Really hate seeing guys leave the game and struggle with concussion effects in life. It's terrible.

 

[NYR Viper]

I'm pretty solidly on the side of keeping Kreider unless we get a monster offer, but adding Panarin for free while adding the assets for Kreider is certainly an interesting talking point.

You gotta think a lot of teams would love to add Kreids. The question is can we get one of them to overpay?

That and how sure is the front office that they can secure Panarin (or Stone for that matter).

Here's another interesting talking point. Let's assume Hayes want 6 years x $6m per season and Kreider wants 7 years x $7m (not unreasonable). That's $13m between the two. If the Rangers were to trade both players, what could they get Stone AND Panarin for? $16m? $17m? Are those two guys worth paying the extra for when you consider the Rangers would conceivably also be adding the assets they have received in return for those guys along with those two players and higher cap hits?

It's an interesting concept considering the Rangers, in the scenario where they were to trade Kreider and Hayes, would have, at the very least, (3) more 1st rounders this year to draft centers and defensemen as needed along with a glut of new prospects. That and they would be set on the wings long term

 

[NYR Viper]

What is an actually fair deal for Kreider's rest of this year and next?

I mean most are not going to want all futures, yet if he becomes a pure rental that is likely what they'll end up getting.

So if it were rental like stuff, late 1st, B level prospect(s), conditional 2nd/3rd next year's deadline, what is a fair compromise between that and what he is worth with the extra term remaining?

Any what would be a fair deal to extend him? The market is kind of out there, JVR and Patches are on the lesser extent of that and then Evander Kane and Couture are on the higher end, clauses and all.

I guess I'm thinking that Kreider only sold one UFA year last contract and is probably looking to cash in on what may be his last big contract, maybe his last in general and is going to be looking at the higher end there. If so, I'm not so sure the Rangers can be comfortable there, I am not.

After considering that, I don't want to turn him into rental return, but I don't want to commit to that higher end contract with clauses either.

I guess that puts me in a position where I have to make a trade if the return is higher than what his rental return will be if I think he is going to ask for that higher end contract. Yet I'm still not sure what that value is, like am I looking for the rental stuff with a little more futures added, or am I looking to get a decent roster player back than I can maybe flip for more? I'm pretty sure that is not going to be any D with top pair potential, or any F with top line potential. Pretty sure A level prospects are off the table.

I don't know, tough spot I guess, and it probably leaves me with having to make a much more complicated deal out of it.

It really depends on what team we are discussing as interested in Kreider. Say it's Buffalo:

Alex Nylander + BUF 1st '19 + STL 1st (conditional, may be 2020 pick) + _______

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

It really depends on what team we are discussing as interested in Kreider. Say it's Buffalo:

Alex Nylander + BUF 1st '19 + STL 1st (conditional, may be 2020 pick) + _______

I don't want Nylander.

 

[EpicDing]

It really depends on what team we are discussing as interested in Kreider. Say it's Buffalo:

Alex Nylander + BUF 1st '19 + STL 1st (conditional, may be 2020 pick) + _______

Nylander isn't appealing as the centerpiece, but I see what you're going for.

 

[Off Sides]

It really depends on what team we are discussing as interested in Kreider. Say it's Buffalo:

Alex Nylander + BUF 1st '19 + STL 1st (conditional, may be 2020 pick) + _______

I don't know much about Alex Nylander, yet that seems like a haul.

Is or could be basically 3 first rounders for Kreider one of which was taken at #8

Is that realistic?

I guess I think McD would have returned something like that more so than Kreider?

 

[LORDE]

Too many all or nothing opinions right now. I know it’s the dog days etc and as the team looks worse and worse that’s a normal arch for us to take. But I really feel (hope) that Gorts is looking at things over a much larger timeline.

I’m other words I do believe and agree that everyone is available for a price but I don’t think Gorts goes “scorched earth” unless GMs are knocking him over with great deals.

 

[True Blue]

Ask him. He's said so. You keep coming back to this point, but the rumblings are out there.

Because he said that he wants to play in NY, means that he is signing his allegiance here?

I have head that from many athletes across many sports. Two things to consider:

1) He may be using NY to drive his value on the market up
2) The Rangers cannot afford him at $11m. And I cannot see him taking less dollars to play for a rebuilding team.

 

[Off Sides]

Too many all or nothing opinions right now. I know it’s the dog days etc and as the team looks worse and worse that’s a normal arch for us to take. But I really feel (hope) that Gorts is looking at things over a much larger timeline.

I’m other words I do believe and agree that everyone is available for a price but I don’t think Gorts goes “scorched earth” unless GMs are knocking him over with great deals.

I hear that too, but these pending UFAs who are at least good return less the closer they get to UFA, and eventually they return rental value.

Even the lesser guys, is Name or Vesey worth more now than they will be at next deadline, and is there going to be a point to extending him?

I get they need some bodies, and it will be really bad should they sell their good and not have anything good to play next year, yet asset wise I'm not sure if I'd be holding out for premium returns when next year I am getting just rental return anyway.

Seems there should be something in between I guess.

 

[Kendo]

Because he said that he wants to play in NY, means that he is signing his allegiance here?

I have head that from many athletes across many sports. Two things to consider:

1) He may be using NY to drive his value on the market up
2) The Rangers cannot afford him at $11m. And I cannot see him taking less dollars to play for a rebuilding team.

He's not "signing his allegiance here." Rather, "there are rumblings that he has said he is interested."

Yup. He could be using it as a bargaining chip.
The Rangers can afford in the neighborhood of $10m.

It remains a possibility. It's no guarantee, but it's not outlandish.