Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XXI

[Ola]

To borrow a line from John Tortorella

They are up and down like toilet bowl seats.

The "they" is Kreider and Zibanejad.

Kreider looks great in some games and invisible in other games. The Rangers shouldn't pay him.

Zibanejad's last two goals have come against Vegas. The only problem was the games were played on December 16 and January 8. Mika had 4 assists against Nashville and his line with Kreider and Fast had a career game. 10 points combined. That's why they beat Nashville. Mika has been invisible in the last month or so.

They should not trade Andersson.

If they get a good deal for Skjei, they should move him.

Is Zibanejad consistent and durable enough to bet on as a top line center? I certainly have my doubts.

Zibanejad is really trying in NY, he loves it here and we have obviously told him that his second best isn't going to be enough if he wants to stay here. He comes to camp in the best shape he ever has been for a camp. He is trying to take on a bigger role. But how consistent does that make him? It was a little while ago, but like when he took that bad slash against Philly it really pissed him off. You could see him yelling at the refs from the bench. The following 10 minutes was the best I have seen him.

There is not much hitting in this league. After his last concussion Ziba said that he had felt really awful and that it was something he never wanted to experience again.

The bottom line for me is that I think Zibanejad will keep improving his consistency a bit for a while going forward. He is still fairly new in a more of a goto role on a hockey team. He is certainly doing a great job in many areas. But the ability to motivate yourself, the ability to lead, these are all abilities too. Some are better at it than others. They are not Ziba's strengths, don't think its a major flaw, but as a top center its something that you should be great not solid at. AND that is when everything is going great for him, when he is in his prime and when he is healthy. How good will Ziba be after his next concussion? After getting back form a shoulder injury? I am not super confident about him over the long run. Definitely think Gorts should explore all options out there.

 

[Ola]

If they aren't careful, Colorado will be the next Dallas. They need to find a few second tier guys who they can sign at reasonable contracts who help fill holes and provide either secondary scoring or defensive help.

They have the Ottawa pick in their back pocket which this point has a very good chance of being top 5. As long as they hang on to that, they can be buyers without seriously mortgaging the future.

If I were them, I would dangle their own 1st out there. They're one of the few teams that has an expendable 1st rounder this year.

I want it.

Give it to me

I just always feel that teams are so naive in these situations. Colorado have more than 10m in cap space and quite much money on the books that they should be able to shed fairly easy if they wanted more room. They don't have to deal with us -- but lets say they went out and got like Kreider and Hayes for futures while getting us to take Soderberg. They can keep both for an foreseeable future. They would have a team that easily would be up there with say that top 4-8 contenders the coming 5-6 years. What would they have to give up? A 10 percent shot at Hughes who in his turn has like a 50% shot at turning them into a dynasty? What do they risk with being a cellar team year in and year out?

 

[NYR Viper]

I just always feel that teams are so naive in these situations. Colorado have more than 10m in cap space and quite much money on the books that they should be able to shed fairly easy if they wanted more room. They don't have to deal with us -- but lets say they went out and got like Kreider and Hayes for futures while getting us to take Soderberg. They can keep both for an foreseeable future. They would have a team that easily would be up there with say that top 4-8 contenders the coming 5-6 years. What would they have to give up? A 10 percent shot at Hughes who in his turn has like a 50% shot at turning them into a dynasty? What do they risk with being a cellar team year in and year out?

I agree with everything you just wrote. I would say similar things in regards to Buffalo. They have Eichel and Skinner (who hopefully re-signs there) along with Reinhart. They really need a couple more guys for secondary scoring. Hayes (re-signed) + Kreider gives them a VERY good 2nd line and a match-up nightmare for most teams. On top of that, those guys would probably come in around $12-13m total which isn't unreasonable when you can throw a younger kid on their RW and have a very good 2nd line.

 

[LaffyTaffy]

I would put together a fair package for Draisaitl and Edmonton's 1st. I know that is not exactly what a fire sale entails, but a move that lands us that package, along with signing Panarin/Stone 100% puts us back in the playoff picture.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I would put together a fair package for Draisaitl and Edmonton's 1st. I know that is not exactly what a fire sale entails, but a move that lands us that package, along with signing Panarin/Stone 100% puts us back in the playoff picture.

Who cares about being back in the playoff picture?

I want to build a team that’s in the front of the picture, not barely noticeable in the background somehwere being defiled by a stray animal.

 

[Off Sides]

Everyone should be on the table.

Yet it would take a whole lot for me to be moving any of the players who were drafted (whether the Rangers drafted them or traded for them) from the 2016-17-18 drafts.

If I am moving Zbad it has to be a better than the Stepan deal in terms of draft position and prospects, if not I'd just keep him clause and all.

Kreider is going to be a rental next year, are the Rangers extending him? The same arguments that apply to Hayes can be applied to Kreider except that he is a top line player. Is him being a top line player really going to make much difference in the rental return if the Rangers are not willing to extend him to whatever he is asking for?

Skjei, he has some tools, but he should have been bridged. This year playing with the dregs on D the Rangers have, who really knows but I don't think this year should be seen as his true potential, I don't see that potential being more than a decent middle pair defender, yet those are still worth quite a bit by trade.

Beyond those prospects and me not taking cents on the dollar for Zbad or Skjei, I am of the scorched earth opinion if the returns make sense even if they are 90 cents in futures on the dollar.

 

[offdacrossbar]

this is so depressing. this team has become a joke and im losing interest rapidly. the rebuild is real and the pain is real(er)....

trading hayes, maybe mika and now, gulp.... CK is a complete and utter sign of failure for this organization. the best 3 players on the team are available. the only ones that arent either suck so bad or have such awful contracts that they have no value.

to think that the single best player we have drafted and developed in forever is being shopped shows the level of chaos this organization is in right now.

were that to happen, then we have completely gutted this team of its best talent. i fear this rebuild will be less rebuild and more of a surrender. failure. welcome to mediocrity.

this rebuild isn't a rebuild its a total demo. its bring in the excavator and take it all down. its start from scratch with draft picks and hopes and dreams. awful plan.

the light needs to shine directly on the suits that run this clown show. thats where the blame lies.

sather. JG. gordie clark. all need to be help responsible for this mess.

 

[NYR Viper]

this is so depressing. this team has become a joke and im losing interest rapidly. the rebuild is real and the pain is real(er)....

trading hayes, maybe mika and now, gulp.... CK is a complete and utter sign of failure for this organization. the best 3 players on the team are available. the only ones that arent either suck so bad or have such awful contracts that they have no value.

to think that the single best player we have drafted and developed in forever is being shopped shows the level of chaos this organization is in right now.

were that to happen, then we have completely gutted this team of its best talent. i fear this rebuild will be less rebuild and more of a surrender. failure. welcome to mediocrity.

this rebuild isn't a rebuild its a total demo. its bring in the excavator and take it all down. its start from scratch with draft picks and hopes and dreams. awful plan.

the light needs to shine directly on the suits that run this clown show. thats where the blame lies.

sather. JG. gordie clark. all need to be help responsible for this mess.

We have discussed this ad nauseum but the issue is not that they don't like the players, it's that their next contracts will bring them into their mid-30's and their prime years will not likely match the rest of the organization.

 

[SA16]

Why would you put together a package to trade for a player who, when not playing with Connor McDavid, has performed worse than Kevin Hayes?

 

[mulli25]

Step back form the ledge, bud

The team swung for the fences to try to win one in Henrik's prime, and missed. This is what naturally follows. Hindsight is 20/20, and we can second guess some of their moves along the way, but this is not some catastrophic epic management failure.

 

[mulli25]

weird double post, remove please

 

[offdacrossbar]

We have discussed this ad nauseum but the issue is not that they don't like the players, it's that their next contracts will bring them into their mid-30's and their prime years will not likely match the rest of the organization.

im sure the caps or the kings or the hawks had nothing but 27 yr old players or younger skating around the ice hoisting the cup after they won.

fallacy.

im sorry, but i dont buy for one second your take.

experience. leadership and 30 yr old players aren't toxic to winning. in fact, quite the contrary.

this organization is a hot mess if they are looking to move 13, 93 and 20. period.

 

[NernieBichols]

this is so depressing. this team has become a joke and im losing interest rapidly. the rebuild is real and the pain is real(er)....

trading hayes, maybe mika and now, gulp.... CK is a complete and utter sign of failure for this organization. the best 3 players on the team are available. the only ones that arent either suck so bad or have such awful contracts that they have no value.

to think that the single best player we have drafted and developed in forever is being shopped shows the level of chaos this organization is in right now.

were that to happen, then we have completely gutted this team of its best talent. i fear this rebuild will be less rebuild and more of a surrender. failure. welcome to mediocrity.

this rebuild isn't a rebuild its a total demo. its bring in the excavator and take it all down. its start from scratch with draft picks and hopes and dreams. awful plan.

the light needs to shine directly on the suits that run this clown show. thats where the blame lies.

sather. JG. gordie clark. all need to be help responsible for this mess.

Haha. Maybe they just don’t want to sign Kreider for 7 years at 8mill+. He can get that. It’s the mcdonagh situation all over. He becomes a rental next years

 

[mulli25]

im sure the caps or the kings or the hawks had nothing but 27 yr old players or younger skating around the ice hoisting the cup after they won.

fallacy.

im sorry, but i dont buy for one second your take.

experience. leadership and 30 yr old players aren't toxic to winning. in fact, quite the contrary.

this organization is a hot mess if they are looking to move 13, 93 and 20. period.

My personal suspicion is that they're open to moving any of them, but not all of them. Even if they have solid offers for each, I truly can't imagine them moving all three.

 

[NernieBichols]

im sure the caps or the kings or the hawks had nothing but 27 yr old players or younger skating around the ice hoisting the cup after they won.

fallacy.

im sorry, but i dont buy for one second your take.

experience. leadership and 30 yr old players aren't toxic to winning. in fact, quite the contrary.

this organization is a hot mess if they are looking to move 13, 93 and 20. period.

Your so off base. Surrender is paying and sticking with those guys. I couldn’t disagree with you anymore regarding the 3 players

 

[NYR Viper]

im sure the caps or the kings or the hawks had nothing but 27 yr old players or younger skating around the ice hoisting the cup after they won.

fallacy.

im sorry, but i dont buy for one second your take.

experience. leadership and 30 yr old players aren't toxic to winning. in fact, quite the contrary.

this organization is a hot mess if they are looking to move 13, 93 and 20. period.

I'm not saying their toxic. But for Kreider to be 30, the Rangers would need to compete for The Cup in 3 years. We see how this year is going. Do we think next year will be any better? Doubtful.

And I'm not saying to just jettison him to the moon. What I'm saying is that they should listen.

 

[offdacrossbar]

Step back form the ledge, bud

The team swung for the fences to try to win one in Henrik's prime, and missed. This is what naturally follows. Hindsight is 20/20, and we can second guess some of their moves along the way, but this is not some catastrophic epic management failure.

swung for the fences ?

applies to trades and such sure, but how does one "swing for the fences" when drafting ?

and when you make moves like they have made recently, thats not going for it, thats utter recklessness.

you shop 13, 93 and 20 and this organization is now a shit show. period.

these are the same clowns who held on to rick nash until he was a rotting corpse. re-upt girardi and staal, the MSL swan song tour, the whole erik staal thing and the yandle disaster plus signed brendan smith to a 4 yr deal.

we signed mcquaid for what reason?

total. failure.

 

[NernieBichols]

Hayes is a free agent who they aren’t resigning at his ask
Kreider is a year away from UFA and unless your giving him the contract he wants, his max value is now
Mika has a NMC clause that kicks in this summer which takes all the small market teams that he would nix a trade too out of the mix and means the rangers will keep him for the 3 years they are gonna suck/be getting better and than they will owe him a huge final UFA contract that probably aren’t gonna end up being the ones giving it to him. The time to move him is now.

Your wrong on all 3

 

[Kendo]

2017 was a retool year that lead to 2018 being a rebuild year. It is still so, so very early in the process. To call this team a joke is a joke in itself.

Am I missing something? Is Lundqvist being shopped? Callahan, Dubinsky, Stepan, and Miller were drafted and developed into good players that we ended up trading when they were about to be locked into what is most likely the most expensive contracts of their careers. Kreider is is a step better than those players, so he is closer to being a keeper. However, he is not the hands down top tier player that Panarin is. Artemi is a top-10 winger in the NHL, and arguably a top-10 forward. If signing him renders CK available, then so be it.

Mediocrity is finishing as a 7th seed year in and year out, and never drafting in the top 10. Blowing it up and adding 1st & 2nd rounders on top of your own top 10 picks is far from an awful plan. It's closer to the blueprint for winning in today's NHL. The risk is ending up like EDM, but the upside is ending up like most of the cup winners over the last decade.

I wish you would step back from that ledge, my friend.

 

[NernieBichols]

If Kreider has 3 years left on his deal you keep him.
If Mika’s NMC wasn’t kicking in till next summer you keep him for another year.
If Hayes wanted 5million over 5 years without a full NMC, sign him.

None of these are the case. And the situation being what I just described above. You have to move these guys if your not giving them their next contracts. Which I don’t think the rangers are on any of the guys

 

[NernieBichols]

swung for the fences ?

applies to trades and such sure, but how does one "swing for the fences" when drafting ?

and when you make moves like they have made recently, thats not going for it, thats utter recklessness.

you shop 13, 93 and 20 and this organization is now a **** show. period.

these are the same clowns who held on to rick nash until he was a rotting corpse. re-upt girardi and staal, the MSL swan song tour, the whole erik staal thing and the yandle disaster plus signed brendan smith to a 4 yr deal.

we signed mcquaid for what reason?

total. failure.

Your avatar is fitting. Flinging crap against the wall

 

[NYR Viper]

What do we think Michael Ferland will make as a UFA? He's 26 years old, will be 27 next year. He would appear to be a 35-40 point power forward. He's making $1.75m this year.

Patrick Maroon is having a tough year in St Louis (along with many others). He's the type of guy who may take a short contract to rebuild some value who could provide some leadership and some toughness in the bottom-6. Net front presence on PP2. Depending on what he would be looking for as a UFA, I'd take a look at him assuming Gorton moves one or two of Namestnikov/Fast/Vesey/Strome at this deadline or in the off-season.

You know what would be interesting? If the Rangers were to trade a couple of Vesey/Strome/Namestnikov/Fast and signed Hagelin in the off-season to a 1-2 year deal.

Oscar Lindberg is also a UFA.

 

[Gardner McKay]

I understand that. What I don’t understand is how not wanting your team’s GM to be trading his best asset for “safe players” with limited upside is a crime.



Kravtsov was the Rangers’ pick and the team won games after the trade that prevented them from getting lower in the standings.

No one in the right mind is expecting them to go for it, you all see my posts in the game day threads. It’s always the same first post... “#Lose4Hughes”

I welcome the rebuild, it’s about 3 years overdue, I just don’t think they got back enough for McDonagh. Hopefully, Howden, Hajek and Nils prove me wrong.



I agree with everything you said there. I’d move Kreider if the right deal came along. Hayes is their meal ticket to a second, possibly a 3rd first rounder. By the time this team is ready to truly compete, we’re looking at Hayes being 30 or older. Deal him.



I can handle a rebuild, I’ve stated many times I embrace it. I’m just not going to be the rah rah cheerleader that blindly pumps up Brett Howden’s tires or acts like Gorton can do no wrong when he clearly got bent over by Yzerman in that trade.

Regarding the bold...

I agree. I think we all wish he could have received a little more in the trade. Had Karlsson not been available I would like to believe the haul would have been significantly higher.

The rebuild part of my comment wasn't directed at you in anyway. I've seen our board (generally speaking), clamor for a rebuild for the better part of 10 years, knowing that many folks who wanted the rebuild wouldn't be able to handle it. Some could. Many can't.

 

[offdacrossbar]

why would panarin (or any other A FA) want to come to this team ??

ill wait...... *sounds of crickets*

they wont. period.

LATERAL. is not getting better. whats that saying ? rearranging chairs on the titanic....

panarin isnt coming here on a promise of a rebuild in 3 years. and if he does, hes 30 before we compete anyway so that argument is null and void. over. lets file that one away under "not happening".

the only way you attract a juicy FA is with a roster that allows that player to believe he can win here. capice ?

the promise of 1st rounders and guys like chytl, howden, andersson, buch and shesy aint gonna cut it people.

look what happened after moving 27. HUGE defensive void and all the other dmen got exposed.

you move 13, 93 and 20 and this roster has a huge gaping festering wound that 1st rounders and artemi panarin cant heal.

failure.

 

[NYR Viper]

why would panarin (or any other A FA) want to come to this team ??

ill wait...... *sounds of crickets*

they wont. period.

LATERAL. is not getting better. whats that saying ? rearranging chairs on the titanic....

panarin isnt coming here on a promise of a rebuild in 3 years. and if he does, hes 30 before we compete anyway so that argument is null and void. over. lets file that one away under "not happening".

the only way you attract a juicy FA is with a roster that allows that player to believe he can win here. capice ?

the promise of 1st rounders and guys like chytl, howden, andersson, buch and shesy aint gonna cut it people.

look what happened after moving 27. HUGE defensive void and all the other dmen got exposed.

you move 13, 93 and 20 and this roster has a huge gaping festering wound that 1st rounders and artemi panarin cant heal.

failure.

So based on what you just said, why would Kreider or Hayes re-sign in NY? Do they not want to win? If they don't want to win, why would the organization want to keep them?