Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XXI

[Gardner McKay]

It really depends on what team we are discussing as interested in Kreider. Say it's Buffalo:

Alex Nylander + BUF 1st '19 + STL 1st (conditional, may be 2020 pick) + _______

I see where you're going with this and we trade Kreider, this is the type of return I would expect, sans Nylander. He is a player whose value is as high as it is because his last name carries some cachet.

Teams need a blue chip + 1st to even be in the game. Kreider and Hank (early on) are the only reasons we are not dead last in the NHL.

 

[Sarge13]

People expecting us to be contenders in 3 years just maybe forget that this teams 'rebuild' that led to our one cup in a thousand years started with Brian Leetch in 1986 eight years before we won the cup.

Not that it couldn't be done sooner with what we have now, but it took that long with players like Leetch, Richter, Amonte, Graves, Weight, Kovalev, Zubov, etc all coming through the system at the right time, and it still took eight years and half an Oilers all star team.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

People expecting us to be contenders in 3 years just maybe forget that this teams 'rebuild' that led to our one cup in a thousand years started with Brian Leach in 1986 eight years before we won the cup.

Not that it couldn't be done sooner with what we have now, but it took that long with players like Leetch, Richter, Amonte, Graves, Weight, Kovalev, Zubov, etc all coming through the system at the right time, and it still took eight years.

Don't know that you can really compare then to now, the Salary cap kind of changes things.

Hawks won 4 years after Toews (3 for Kane) was drafted. Kings 4 years after Doughty (6 for Kopitar.) Now it took the Caps 14 years after OV was taken, but having him, Backstrom, etc. under control for their best years gave them multiple cracks at it before they finally broke through.

The 90's Rangers could have extended that window and possibly won multiple cups if they didn't throw it all away for that single one.

 

[Off Sides]

It would not. And if that represents the best, then he has much more value to the Rangers in leading the team through and on the other side of the rebuild than in a trade If the other team does not cringe at what they are giving up for a player that could put them over the top, then they do not get to have him.

In which case how are those opinions going to feel if the Rangers end up turning him into rental return next deadline because they will not commit to some 6 or 7 year deal for 7M or more with some clauses, maybe even a no movement clause?

It's not like I am saying yes they should trade him no matter what or not to extend him, I am saying there is a pretty good possibility in my mind that the choice for the Rangers is going to be next deadline...

Extend at ~6 years, ~7M, plus (if we use Kane's) Clause= a 3 team can trade to

or

Sell for rental return, ~ late 1st, conditional something, B level prospect.

 

[Kendo]

how is panarin any different than those 3 again ?

That he has been a top 10 winger in the league for a number of years. Pretty different.

How will they afford to sign Krieder, if they pay Panarin $10-$111? Where did Smith, Staal & Shattenkirk go? What about Henke's contract of for that matter Skej's?

IMO, it is pretty far fetched. Especially why a player like him would go to a team that is in full on rebuild mode?

If they can sign Panarin, then they can reap the benefits from trading Kreider. It has been mentioned quite a number of times.

Panarin has simply "expressed interest" in NY. Again, it is not outlandish to consider.

 

[offdacrossbar]

One of things we should probably distinguish is the difference between a team that could make the playoffs and is on the upswing, vs. a team that is a contender.

I feel like there's some blurred lines there --- with some people confusing the two concepts.

I think most people expecting this team to be a contender in three years are probably asking for a lot, but they should be a team on the upswing and a potential playoff team. A lot of that depends on multiple factors, not the least of which is what happens at the 2019 draft.

But a true contender, as in the window is wide open, is probably a bit further out than that.

were only a few players away from making the playoffs now. we could be on that upswing now. we arent winning the cup but get in and you have a shot. right now, were looking at no shot for 3 yrs.

if vegas can play in the cup finals, anyone can. right ? change the defense and add one shooter and we're there.

the whole climate of this team is poor. these guys talk. zuc is dead man walking .hayes is on his way out. CK is all over the place in rumours. everyones for sale. the morale is in the shitter. this whole team is in the dumpster.

instead of trying to get better and build a true team and core to win going forward, we are selling off the entire roster and blaming these 26 yr old guys fro not winning yet expecting the 20-22 yrs olds to step in and take over while hoping newly drafted teenagers will get us out of the cellar.

this isnt a rebuild, its a teardown where you sell your best players off and hope the draft rebuilds you into a winner quickly. wont happen.

CK for an ahl player and 2 mid/late 1sts. really ? good lord.

 

[Off Sides]

I do not think that they will continue to try to get blood from a stone with the 3 Ss. You are also assuming that the likes of ADA, Pionk, Skej do not take steps forward and players like Lingren & Hajek do not make it.

Draft a Byram this year, and that changes the entire scope of the future defense. Yes, even in 3 years when him and Miller can patrol the left side for an entire game.

I hate saying this stuff because it can come back and look unfavorable and I do not spend a lot of time watching the prospects, yet I don't see any top pair D there among that group drafted prior to 2018.

And I at least would not to be willing to bet on Panarin being anything close to what he currently is by the time Miller or Byram(or similar), should they make it, be in their primes playing top pair.

The timeline just does not make much sense.

Now if they are signing Panarin to complement, Zbad, Hayes, Kreider, Zucc, Lundqvist, Skjei, etc in some last ditch effort, I see something that can maybe, maybe make the playoffs and be ousted in the first or second round before that all falls completely apart a year or two later.

 

[LaffyTaffy]

On the topic of drafting Byram, with how deep the forward crop is at the top of the draft, I would still be more than happy drafting him. Draft a forward top-10 in 2020. Byram is something special and having a D crop of Byram, Miller, Hajek, Keane, Lundkvist and Rykov puts us in a great spot. In 5 years those first 3 names could be the best left side in the league...

 

[apoptygma]

If we resign Kreider, Hayes and keep Mika, and sign Panarin. THen the defence is ready and our window opens in 3 years.
With these 4 being 29-30 yearsat that time, how long would the window be open?

On the other side, if we scorch it all down, getting some similar talent from our picks from 2018 to 2019 while we slowly turn over our defense.
Then we will have our offensive talent being in the early twenties, with the best ones locked into long contracts covering their prime years. We might then have a 10 year window to compete. There might be a down year in there where we regain
our depth, but our cap structure should be much better for a longer period.

 

[True Blue]

Extend at ~6 years, ~7M, plus (if we use Kane's) Clause= a 3 team can trade to

or

Sell for rental return, ~ late 1st, conditional something, B level prospect.

Extend

 

[Avery16]

I don’t think there’s a player out there that’s worth 10 million/season for multiple seasons. Let’s not do that. The problems will start right away.

 

[Off Sides]

One of things we should probably distinguish is the difference between a team that could make the playoffs and is on the upswing, vs. a team that is a contender.

I feel like there's some blurred lines there --- with some people confusing the two concepts.

I think most people expecting this team to be a contender in three years are probably asking for a lot, but they should be a team on the upswing and a potential playoff team. A lot of that depends on multiple factors, not the least of which is what happens at the 2019 draft.

But a true contender, as in the window is wide open, is probably a bit further out than that.

I am fine with that, but if this is a team on the upswing in 3 years how does a 32/33 year old Kreider and 30/31 year old Panarin or whatever example people want to use fit into that given the defense is still likely to be a huge mess and currently the goaltending in 3 years is a question mark.

If true contender is even further out, just advance the ages of those who they would sign or extend, and just advance all the 2nd contracts cap hits and I think it kind of shows that they can't do both thing, keep those aging players around on high cap hits, add in the 2nd contracts to the others and fix the D and possible goal too all within any 3 or 5 years.

They need to attach themselves to pretty much one way or the other.

 

[True Blue]

If they can sign Panarin, then they can reap the benefits from trading Kreider. It has been mentioned quite a number of times.

Panarin has simply "expressed interest" in NY. Again, it is not outlandish to consider.

I understand that. I just have my doubts about players saying how much they want to play here. And I also have my doubts about a player in the prime of his career choosing to go to a team that is and will be rebuilding.

Lots of players express an interest to play in NY. Many times it is done to drive up value on market.

Kreider is a leader on this team. Will Panarin be?

 

[Off Sides]

Extend

I think that is easier to say now than it will be after next season when the Rangers are likely to be pretty bad again.

 

[effen]

The 90's Rangers could have extended that window and possibly won multiple cups if they didn't throw it all away for that single one.

Everyone says the "one" was worth it, but that's so they don't have to think about throwing away a decade of Tony Amonte (perennial 1st line winger), decade of Doug Weight (perennial 1st line C) , decade of Todd Marchant (top handful of 3rd line Cs) for depth guys who were gone in a year or two. Unbelievably terrible even if it worked out.

The "Dark Ages" never happen as they coincide with Weight scoring 70+ and Amonte ripping off 40 goal years on some garbo Chicago teams. The Rangers probably end up being A LOT like the St. Louis Blues were, 15 year edge contenders. Woulda taken that over the one cup tbh.

 

[Rangers in 7]

I understand that. I just have my doubts about players saying how much they want to play here. And I also have my doubts about a player in the prime of his career choosing to go to a team that is and will be rebuilding.

Lots of players express an interest to play in NY. Many times it is done to drive up value on market.

Kreider is a leader on this team. Will Panarin be?

i love kreider, but panarin is a top 15-20 player in the league....that is something kreids will never be

 

[Rangers in 7]

Everyone says the "one" was worth it, but that's so they don't have to think about throwing away a decade of Tony Amonte (perennial 1st line winger), decade of Doug Weight (perennial 1st line C) , decade of Todd Marchant (top handful of 3rd line Cs) for depth guys who were gone in a year or two. Unbelievably terrible even if it worked out.

if amonte and weight werent traded i think we would have won 2 or 3 more cups imo

 

[Edge]

were only a few players away from making the playoffs now. we could be on that upswing now. we arent winning the cup but get in and you have a shot. right now, were looking at no shot for 3 yrs.

if vegas can play in the cup finals, anyone can. right ? change the defense and add one shooter and we're there.

the whole climate of this team is poor. these guys talk. zuc is dead man walking .hayes is on his way out. CK is all over the place in rumours. everyones for sale. the morale is in the ****ter. this whole team is in the dumpster.

instead of trying to get better and build a true team and core to win going forward, we are selling off the entire roster and blaming these 26 yr old guys fro not winning yet expecting the 20-22 yrs olds to step in and take over while hoping newly drafted teenagers will get us out of the cellar.

this isnt a rebuild, its a teardown where you sell your best players off and hope the draft rebuilds you into a winner quickly. wont happen.

CK for an ahl player and 2 mid/late 1sts. really ? good lord.

I think your first point speaks exactly to what I mean about making the playoffs and being a contender.

We could, in theory, make the playoffs with a few players. We are not a few players away from being a cotender. And we are not a few players away from having the depth Vegas had last year.

I'll take a hard pass on that second line. Also not really seeing the whole selling off the entire team line.

I just don't even know where to start with this post, there's so much that has been beaten to death.

 

[cheech70]

I'm pretty solidly on the side of keeping Kreider unless we get a monster offer, but adding Panarin for free while adding the assets for Kreider is certainly an interesting talking point.

You gotta think a lot of teams would love to add Kreids. The question is can we get one of them to overpay?

Going over all the scenarios and trying to maximize return on Kreider how about waiting till draft positions are set. So for example we pick 3rd..then Oilers have the 6th pick . We have targeted the player we have the strongest conviction on and see if he falls to us or is still available. In my Oilers scenario we trade Kreider and recieve 2019 1st..2020 1st and say Klefbom(is he still good?) and a B prospect or a 2nd. Is that enough?

So we draft Kirby Dach and Vasili Podkolzin and along with Klefbom hopefully solidify 3 spots. Then have another 1st for 2020.

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[FIRE DRURY]

we arent winning the cup but get in and you have a shot.

Whaaaa....?

 

[effen]

if amonte and weight werent traded i think we would have won 2 or 3 more cups imo

IDK about that, but it woulda been pretty great to see Amonte on Gretzky's wing and Weight replacing Messier.

 

[Edge]

I am fine with that, but if this is a team on the upswing in 3 years how does a 32/33 year old Kreider and 30/31 year old Panarin or whatever example people want to use fit into that given the defense is still likely to be a huge mess and currently the goaltending in 3 years is a question mark.

If true contender is even further out, just advance the ages of those who they would sign or extend, and just advance all the 2nd contracts cap hits and I think it kind of shows that they can't do both thing, keep those aging players around on high cap hits, add in the 2nd contracts to the others and fix the D and possible goal too all within any 3 or 5 years.

They need to attach themselves to pretty much one way or the other.

Well I think it's important to note that they haven't gone against what they said they would do. WE are floating proposals that would go against that. So it's a little hard to debate moves like extending Kreider or signing Panarin because they're all concepts on here and no actual moves.

Now, personally I would not sign Panarin in most circumstances, nor do I think the Rangers would. But I can't really debate the hypothetical because we don't really have anything to base it on.

From all indications, the Rangers are pretty committed to the path we've seen for almost a year now.

 

[Off Sides]

Well I think it's important to note that they haven't gone against what they said they would do. WE are floating proposals that would go against that. So it's a little hard to debate moves like extending Kreider or signing Panarin because they're all concepts on here and no actual moves.

Now, personally I would not sign Panarin in most circumstances, nor do I think the Rangers would. But I can't really debate the hypothetical because we don't really have anything to base it on.

From all indications, the Rangers are pretty committed to the path we've seen for almost a year now.

I hope so and would agree with that path.

Yet I do think that path included moving McD, Miller when they both had a year left on their deals, which kind of brings us back around to those this deadline who have a year left.

Which is mostly where my points have come up, I know Kreider, Hayes, and such are good players, I know it would be nice to get more known or premium futures back, but I just don't think it works like that.

 

[offdacrossbar]

i love kreider, but panarin is a top 15-20 player in the league....that is something kreids will never be

until hes traded to a team with true talent.

then hell be a 30 + goal guy with ease.

bank it.

 

[offdacrossbar]

Whaaaa....?

if you burn it down, you aint getting a shot. no playoffs. nothing.

for along time.