Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XX

[Edge]

It's funny, for all the talk of how inconsistent Kreider is, here are his 82 game point paces for the last 4 years (including this one.) 58, 52, 54, 53.

Kreider, not unlike Zucc before him, is somewhat easy to predict the final outcome. It's difficult to predict "how" he'll get there, and "when" he'll arrive at the expected totals, but his year to year results are about as steady as they come.

 

[Fireonk]

Kreider, not unlike Zucc before him, is somewhat easy to predict the final outcome. It's difficult to predict "how" he'll get there, and "when" he'll arrive at the expected totals, but his year to year results are about as steady as they come.

And yet we never really heard how inconsistent Zucc was (minus last year when he was obviously struggling because he knew he was being traded.) Think Kreider gets the criticism more just because everyone sort of assumes there is another gear in him while people think Zucc maximized his potential.

Just think every player is going to go missing from time to time unless they are the truly elite.

 

[Machinehead]

When you see a roach

When it starts to fly

 

[Edge]

And yet we never really heard how inconsistent Zucc was (minus last year when he was obviously struggling because he knew he was being traded.) Think Kreider gets the criticism more just because everyone sort of assumes there is another gear in him while people think Zucc maximized his potential.

Just think every player is going to go missing from time to time unless they are the truly elite.

Kreider is one of those guys who just seems to divide people on multiple levels.

In Kreider's case it's interesting because it's not a straight forward good-bad debate. Instead, it's more of a debate as to how good.

How good he is vs. how good some thing he should be. The size of his impact and value. His worth, etc.

I think most people like Kreider, but some people love him. But I think a lot of it comes down to seeing just how impressive he can be when he's on. It's very easy to want more of that.

 

[Edge]

And yet we never really heard how inconsistent Zucc was (minus last year when he was obviously struggling because he knew he was being traded.) Think Kreider gets the criticism more just because everyone sort of assumes there is another gear in him while people think Zucc maximized his potential.

Just think every player is going to go missing from time to time unless they are the truly elite.

I think where Kreider probably gets some grief is the length of time he goes missing, and the startling contrast between when he is on and off. It's like watching a player who can literally change the outcome of a game or a guy who you have to check to see if he dressed. It's less noticeable when there's less difference between high tide and low tide.

 

[Fireonk]

I think where Kreider probably gets some grief is the length of time he goes missing, and the startling contrast between when he is on and off. It's like watching a player who can literally change the outcome of a game or a guy who you have to check to see if he dressed. It's less noticeable when there's less difference between high tide and low tide.

An argument could be made that that isn't the worst thing in the world to have a player or two like that on the team. You sometimes need an X factor every few games versus just good every game.

Obviously in an ideal world he is that X factor every game, but he is what he is at this point.

 

[Kovalev27]

Let’s also factor in how many goals are scored because of his net front presence or his ability to beat every one to retrieve a puck In the corner off a shot wide or rebound on the pp and keep possession going.

he’s a 50 plus pt player that is strong as an ox and skates like maybe a handful of guys in the whole league can do. You think he’s going to slow down? To what super fast instead of light speed?

you aren’t making the team or the org better over the next 5 years trading him and your window is 5 years right now otherwise trade Mika while you’re at it.

 

[Deleted member 23124]

And yet we never really heard how inconsistent Zucc was (minus last year when he was obviously struggling because he knew he was being traded.) Think Kreider gets the criticism more just because everyone sort of assumes there is another gear in him while people think Zucc maximized his potential.

Just think every player is going to go missing from time to time unless they are the truly elite.

That's because there is another gear in him.....it's just rarely seen.

 

[ETTER DE]

The Rangers should consider buying out both Staal and Smith this summer. The Rangers free up some cap space and open up two roster spots for next season. The Rangers will save less than could have because Staal and Smith have $1M signing bonuses which are buyout proof. The Rangers will save $3.7M on the cap for next season. The second and last season of the buyouts are very cheap.

The Rangers have Skjei, Lindgren and Hajek on the left side. Hajek is nearing a return from his knee injury and Quinn said Hajek will play some AHL games after he is deemed healthy. Miller could turn pro this summer. Where does one more season of Staal fit for next season? Same situation as Lundqvist.

Lindgren came up when Staal got hurt. When Staal was nearing his return from the ankle injury, Hajek hurt his knee in TB. Hajek will be back soon. The Rangers are better off with Lindgren and Hajek than playing Staal.

The Rangers have an expansion draft to prepare for in the next 18 months. They can protect 3 D on 7-3-1 or 8 skaters and one goalie. Trouba has a NMC. That is one slot. The Rangers have 4 D eligible for the draft. Skjei, DeAngelo, Lindgren and Hajek. The Rangers can only protect two of that group. Every team has to expose one signed D for 21-22 who has played 40 NHL games in 20-21 or 70 NHL games combined in 19-20 and 20-21.

I saw what you wrote in the WJC thread about the Rangers looking to upgrade on he left side by moving Skjei with another asset for that player. The Rangers would have to protect that player which makes another player vulnerable. If the Rangers can't move Skjei, he would be the player to expose to meet the expansion draft requirement. He will have 3 years left in 2021 at $5.25M. The Rangers protect the younger D.

Going with 8 skaters sees only 5 skater slots remaining after Panarin, Zibanejad and Trouba. NMC. Chytil gets one of the 5 slots.

The Rangers will need to expose two signed forwards with the 40/70 games played for 21-22 in the expansion draft. Fast would be the perfect player to re-sign and the Rangers could expose him to meet the requirements. That adds money to the Rangers cap.

Keeping Kreider and other players by moving other players and not bringing back money gets more complicated having to prepare for the expansion draft.

Smith is owed 3,35 mill next year. 1 mill is s.bonus. Surely it must be possible to trade him to someone. If the bonus can be paid by Rangers we are talking a salary of 2,35 mill with a cap hit of 4,35 mill. Is there any team who will need to reach the cap floor? Or trade him with a pick/prospect to team who needs a bottom pairing d-man.

 

[Deleted member 23124]

Kreider is one of those guys who just seems to divide people on multiple levels.

In Kreider's case it's interesting because it's not a straight forward good-bad debate. Instead, it's more of a debate as to how good.

How good he is vs. how good some thing he should be. The size of his impact and value. His worth, etc.

I think most people like Kreider, but some people love him. But I think a lot of it comes down to seeing just how impressive he can be when he's on. It's very easy to want more of that.

He's in his 8th season so far -- frankly I'm tired of waiting for him "to be on" on a more consistent basis. Ain't happening.

 

[nyr2k2]

Let’s also factor in how many goals are scored because of his net front presence or his ability to beat every one to retrieve a puck In the corner off a shot wide or rebound on the pp and keep possession going.

he’s a 50 plus pt player that is strong as an ox and skates like maybe a handful of guys in the whole league can do. You think he’s going to slow down? To what super fast instead of light speed?

you aren’t making the team or the org better over the next 5 years trading him and your window is 5 years right now otherwise trade Mika while you’re at it.

The window shuts all the time. Opens, shuts, extends, contracts. We may have guys develop like crazy and make some moves and suddenly our window is open in eight years. Or no one develops as planned and a couple guys fall off a cliff and we're restarting this thing in three years. I hate the term window. A window for winning only exists in a vacuum.

 

[Deleted member 23124]

Let’s also factor in how many goals are scored because of his net front presence or his ability to beat every one to retrieve a puck In the corner off a shot wide or rebound on the pp and keep possession going.

he’s a 50 plus pt player that is strong as an ox and skates like maybe a handful of guys in the whole league can do. You think he’s going to slow down? To what super fast instead of light speed?

you aren’t making the team or the org better over the next 5 years trading him and your window is 5 years right now otherwise trade Mika while you’re at it.

Funny...I remember similar arguments when JJ's departure was imminent....we survived.

 

[NYSPORTS]

Whether Kreider is here or not, Bookmarking this gem of a comment.

or you could stick with your Kreid or Die comment to justify “imo, some fans can’t emotionally part ways with some players”

 

[RGY]

or you could stick with your Kreid or Die comment to justify “imo, some fans can’t emotionally part ways with some players”

You’re too funny....referencing the sig under my username that I had added years ago. Awesome stuff man. That’s definitely solid evidence. How about you go back and read some of my posts on the Kreider situation before spewing out unfounded claims.

You have the best takes on these boards....

 

[Fitzy]

It's funny, for all the talk of how inconsistent Kreider is, here are his 82 game point paces for the last 4 years (including this one.) 58, 52, 54, 53.

All middle 6 level players are inconsistent, which is why they aren't PPG top line players. Kreider, Miller, Buchnevich, Hagelin, Vesey... all scored in streaks.

It's more a matter of what the player brings when they aren't scoring, and the cost-to-benefit ratio of giving them lengthy extensions.

Kreider brings a decent amount like size- but he's going to command a pretty penny too. I am not ruling out extending the guy but we have to be very cautious locking in too much of our future roster with cap space before the rebuild fully develops.

 

[charliemurphy]

Kreider is one of those guys who just seems to divide people on multiple levels.

In Kreider's case it's interesting because it's not a straight forward good-bad debate. Instead, it's more of a debate as to how good.

How good he is vs. how good some thing he should be. The size of his impact and value. His worth, etc.

I think most people like Kreider, but some people love him. But I think a lot of it comes down to seeing just how impressive he can be when he's on. It's very easy to want more of that.

And this is what it comes down to... at least for me.
As a season ticket holder I can't say enough about how frustrating it can be to watch Kreider. When he's on, it feeds virtually everyone else on the team and they play with that much swagger. When he's circling in his own end waiting for things to happen then watches a replay of it on his iPad at the bench... its beyond head scratching.
From last season and coming into this season I've been split on wanting him dealt so we can move on, keep the rebuild going and bring someone else in that can put up similar production at a cheaper price. The other half wants to sign him for 5 years at $5m per and put the C on him, lol.
Reality eventually sets in and dictates he'll be getting a contract that the Rangers should stay away from. If Gorton does his due diligence he should get a similar if not better deal than a 1st and a middle 6 winger prospect.

 

[Fireonk]

That's because there is another gear in him.....it's just rarely seen.

I was referring to another gear on an overall level. Yes, he has those tools that make you think he should/could be one of those elite players, but for whatever reason he just hasn't been able to put it all together on a game to game basis. He is what he is at this point, which is a consistent low-mid 50s point player.

 

[NYSPORTS]

You’re too funny....referencing the sig under my username that I had added years ago. Awesome stuff man. That’s definitely solid evidence. How about you go back and read some of my posts on the Kreider situation before spewing out unfounded claims.

You have the best takes on these boards....

using your words is not spewing unfounded claims. You’re demonstrating exactly what I posted about regarding emotion. Enjoy following Kreider

 

[Fireonk]

All middle 6 level players are inconsistent, which is why they aren't PPG top line players. Kreider, Miller, Buchnevich, Hagelin, Vesey... all scored in streaks.

It's more a matter of what the player brings when they aren't scoring, and the cost-to-benefit ratio of giving them lengthy extensions.

Kreider brings a decent amount like size- but he's going to command a pretty penny too. I am not ruling out extending the guy but we have to be very cautious locking in too much of our future roster with cap space before the rebuild fully develops.

I agree. Don't see where an extension fits at the moment but am not completely against it if he takes a somewhat team friendly deal and other pieces are moved to accommodate. If there is a fair deal for Buch out there I would be happy to move him and try to keep Kreider. But I think it's one or the other, and we would still need to make another move to make it realistic.

 

[Avery16]

I get it. Not fully disagreeing, I just think he gets an overly bad rap on that. Only the elite players make their mark every single game and he certainly isn't elite.

I don’t need Kreider to drive offense every single game, but watching him play physically one game and then play two hand touch the next few is infuriating.

 

[pld459666]

We trade Kreider we’ll be looking for a Kreider for the next decade while the guy will still be bull rushing the league the next 5 years at least. Some of you are already looking to trade for a potential Kreider when you already have him. Amazing.

Who is Kreider bullrushing??

Where is this coming from that hes bullrushing anyone.

I can count on one hand (with spare fingers) how many times he actually hits anyone game in and game out.

But I'd have a real hard time counting with both hands how often he peels off an opportunity to take the body.

 

[Fitzy]

The short explanation is that I don't want to get stuck being unable to re-sign Zibanejad or be forced to choose between long term extensions for Fox and Kakko in 3 years because we spent too much money on 2nd line players like Strome and Kreider.

Offensive depth is good but we have to develop it and strategically fill out those spots once the top end of the lineup is taken care of.

 

[NYSPORTS]

I don’t need Kreider to drive offense every single game, but watching him play physically one game and then play two hand touch the next few is infuriating.

His body wouldn’t last being physical every game. He is what he is. Flashes of a power forward and disappears. Put him with Crosby and he might net 40. Not on this team though and at 28 he’s not worth the investment with so many young kids. This team already has an issue with old veterans compensation outweighing their performance.

 

[Off Sides]

The window ****s all the time. Opens, shuts, extends, contracts. We may have guys develop like crazy and make some moves and suddenly our window is open in eight years. Or no one develops as planned and a couple guys fall off a cliff and we're restarting this thing in three years. I hate the term window. A window for winning only exists in a vacuum.

I tend to think of it in terms of timelines of their most important players and prospects, like Panarin is 9-10 years old than Kakko, can there be a timeline when both are in the prime? And how long is that overlap likely to last for?

Rangers at this point, do they try to bolster the Panarin/Zbad age range with players like Kreider on expensive deals, or do they bolster the Kakko age range by using the trade return of players like Kreider, even if it's two or three separate steps?

It's difficult to do both and once they set their sights one way or the other, the side they do not pick is going to be weakened one way or another.

I mean I guess they could try to do both, trade Kreider for futures or youth of some type, even if a two or three step process, then go bargain UFA shopping for the Panarin like age range and hope to get a Prospal or Grabner or something to that effect.

 

[RGY]

using your words is not spewing unfounded claims. You’re demonstrating exactly what I posted about regarding emotion. Enjoy following Kreider

Using my words? Oh you mean the line under my Username, again which was made several years ago.... hey why bother reading my posts on the Kreider situation as I have suggested, it would only make you look like the fool you are around here.

Oh and I will continue to enjoy watching Kreider. I am not some emotionless robot who needs to monetize everything when it comes to following a sports team. Sure he may have to be traded, but doesn’t mean myself and others shouldn’t like the player. #Clown