Roster Building thread - Part X - (TDL edition)

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Raspewtin

Stay at home defenseman hater
May 30, 2013
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don't feel like posting it but JFresh tweeted out Fox's latest microstats card and points out Fox has been way more conservative this year than years passed. Think that's a combo of his injury and Lindgren being fried horse nuts this year.

when a defenseman is struggling it 1000000% affects the play of their partner. like you can visually see it and it bares out in stats.
 

McRanger92

Registered User
Jun 7, 2017
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Lauzon gets scored on more than every other D on Nashville that has played regular minutes.

Not to dogpile here, it's just a fact

Listen, If i was offended by the analytics dogpile I get every time I talk about a player I like I wouldve left a long time ago. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Im flattered mine seems to get this reaction so often lol.
 

Gardner McKay

RIP, Jimmy.
Jun 27, 2007
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Miller has surpassed expectations vis-a-vis his draft position, but not where we have pencilled him in for ourselves. We are counting on him, and paying him, to be a future top pair defender, or at least that caliber player even if he stays on the second pair. At $4M+ on a second contract, he has to be moving towards that. This isn't a discussion of whether he's a success as a draft pick, it's a discussion as to what we need him to be given the time, money, and on-ice minutes we've invested in him and expect from him. We expect and need him to take the next leap and he hasn't quite so far.

That's not to say he's bad. His charts are good and I'd like to see what he looks like away from the anchor he plays with. He's a keeper. The chart says he needs to be a 1D on the second pair and he's not that, yet, though.

Same for Lafreniere, though with him he's underachieving relative to his draft position unlike Miller. Still, yeah, Laf has has a very good year if you strip away 1OA expectations. On the other hand, his defense remains mediocre to lousy, he needs to improve his finishing, and he goes too long without making an impact at times. The chart says we need another player who is more at Kreider's level. Not there.... yet.

I do agree, as I said, that the chart probably doesn't factor in bad luck, so it's probably dinging Lafreniere more than he should be. Still, I'd like to see Lafreniere take another step and Kakko take a step into Lafreniere territory before I really stop worrying about them.

I think you and I just disagree philosophically. Miller is already well worth his $3.8 million dollar per year contract. He is a top four defenseman, with a great contract and I feel like this is where "charts" get abused and why people disregard them all together (which is a mistake). Any chart that tells me a 24 year old who has averaged 20 minutes a night since his rookie season, has continuously improved, and is on pace for 33 points after a 40+ point year last year, that he needs to improve further... all I can do is :laugh:
 
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McRanger92

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You want one of those who can actually prevent goals 5v5? Connor Murphy.

I mean yeah I always love hearing suggestions on new players who fit, that I didn't think of. It's more productive than acting like people who aren't married to analytics are idiots imo
 

Gardner McKay

RIP, Jimmy.
Jun 27, 2007
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Of course he is. You give him that second contract, which is more than Lindgren got, because you believe he's going to develop into that.

He's not being paid as a CURRENT top pair guy. But he got a premium over a guy like Lindgren's second contract because of the perceived upside. Its so that if he reached the top end quicker, that extra million and a half was the buffer so he's not too much of a steal.

This is stupid semantics and splitting hairs anyway.

We expect and need more out of Miller. We need him to be a #1 caliber/analytical defender who can anchor a second pair or play the first pair. You really need three #1 defenders to be a high end cup team, the metrics show. (Not three Adam Fox Norris winners, but three guys who are at least capable of eating first pair minutes at a first pair rate or better). If he's not that eventually we are probably in trouble in terms of Cup hopes.
No you don't. You give him that second contract because he is earned it and you need to see how he progresses before you commit long term. If you believe he is developing into a top defenseman, you try to lock him up for 8 years at a lower cap hit to maximize your cap dollars.
 

Gardner McKay

RIP, Jimmy.
Jun 27, 2007
26,032
15,473
SoutheastOfDisorder
don't feel like posting it but JFresh tweeted out Fox's latest microstats card and points out Fox has been way more conservative this year than years passed. Think that's a combo of his injury and Lindgren being fried horse nuts this year.

when a defenseman is struggling it 1000000% affects the play of their partner. like you can visually see it and it bares out in stats.
:laugh: I can honestly say I have never heard that one before.
 

McRanger92

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Jun 7, 2017
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ESPN trade deadline article has us trading Goodrow, Sykora, Laba, 1st, and 3rd for Henrique and Vatrano.

They also have Devils trading Holtz and Mercer for Markstrom @ 80%

You run to the phone for that Ducks trade just based on offloading Goodrow. And the Devils trading 2 young forwards that Ruff has ruined for a 34 year old goalie would be dumber than any move we've made over the last few years.
 
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Gardner McKay

RIP, Jimmy.
Jun 27, 2007
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You run to the phone for that Ducks trade just based on offloading Goodrow. And the Devils trading 2 young forwards that Ruff has ruined for a 34 year old goalie would be dumber than any move we've made over the last few years.
Yeah but just because the Devils do it doesn't mean we should. That organization would have been relocated by now if they didn't luck ass backwards into a top 3 goaltender of all time.
 
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Raspewtin

Stay at home defenseman hater
May 30, 2013
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also a weird one for the analytics dorks - I ran the numbers for every Ranger line (not adjusting for the ones at practice today, and literally all of them grade out positive relatively in CF (only Mika's line is negative in xGF):

1709056470131.png

1709056509526.png

1709056536084.png

1709056561892.png


I find that interesting but also......how??? we got utterly skullf***ed analytically every game since the Flames game. were the weird lines that Lavi sent out to deal with Rempe in the penalty box that bad?
 
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aufheben

#Norris4Fox
Jan 31, 2013
53,866
27,720
New Jersey
don't feel like posting it but JFresh tweeted out Fox's latest microstats card and points out Fox has been way more conservative this year than years passed. Think that's a combo of his injury and Lindgren being fried horse nuts this year.

when a defenseman is struggling it 1000000% affects the play of their partner. like you can visually see it and it bares out in stats.
I posted it in the Fox thread yesterday:

1709056778558.png
 
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Machinehead

HFNYR MVP
Jan 21, 2011
147,838
126,443
NYC
I mean yeah I always love hearing suggestions on new players who fit, that I didn't think of. It's more productive than acting like people who aren't married to analytics are idiots imo
It's not about anybody being an idiot. After Staal, Girardi, Trouba, and now Lindgren, people are understandably done with intangibles defensemen who don't prevent goals. We've been burned too many times.

It doesn't mean we can't fit that need with a quality player.
 

Gardner McKay

RIP, Jimmy.
Jun 27, 2007
26,032
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SoutheastOfDisorder
It's not about anybody being an idiot. After Staal, Girardi, Trouba, and now Lindgren, people are understandably done with intangibles defensemen who don't prevent goals. We've been burned too many times.

It doesn't mean we can't fit that need with a quality player.
Yes. I'd have a bit more patience for Lindgren if he was being paid $2 million a year and was on the 3rd pairing.
 

NYR Viper

Registered User
Sep 9, 2007
47,778
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Jacksonville, FL
Can someone compare Lauzon's last 2 years to Mikkola's two years prior to being traded to the Rangers at the deadline? I recall Mikkola having similar complaints prior to being traded to the Rangers. Big guy, doesn't move the puck, doesn't have great possession numbers, kind of physical, kind of slow moving.

I'll say this. A trade for Lauzon would indicate to me that the Rangers feel the need for a more physical d-man on the back-end beyond this year. The two guys who are more physical on the back-end, Trouba and Lindgren, have had poor years. If you were to tell me that, next year, the defense would be mae of something like:

Miller-Fox
Gustafsson-Schneider
Lauzon-Schultz/Demelo

I could get behind that. Lauzon would be able to step in and provide some physical presence on a defense less Trouba and Lindgren...

Or if Gustafsson prices himself out, go get Hanifin or Forsling
 

Gardner McKay

RIP, Jimmy.
Jun 27, 2007
26,032
15,473
SoutheastOfDisorder
Can someone compare Lauzon's last 2 years to Mikkola's two years prior to being traded to the Rangers at the deadline? I recall Mikkola having similar complaints prior to being traded to the Rangers. Big guy, doesn't move the puck, doesn't have great possession numbers, kind of physical, kind of slow moving.

I'll say this. A trade for Lauzon would indicate to me that the Rangers feel the need for a more physical d-man on the back-end beyond this year. The two guys who are more physical on the back-end, Trouba and Lindgren, have had poor years. If you were to tell me that, next year, the defense would be mae of something like:

Miller-Fox
Gustafsson-Schneider
Lauzon-Schultz/Demelo

I could get behind that. Lauzon would be able to step in and provide some physical presence on a defense less Trouba and Lindgren...

Or if Gustafsson prices himself out, go get Hanifin or Forsling
If we shed Trouba's contract we could clone Lauzon and have two of him playing on the bottom pairing for all I care.

Which is a shame. I've grown to really like him as a player. I was very vocal against trading for him and this was one of my concerns, but he has become a favorite of mine. Again, if he was making 2.5 million a year and he and Lindgren were both stapled to the bottom pairing, wouldn't give a rats ass.
 
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McRanger92

Registered User
Jun 7, 2017
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It's not about anybody being an idiot. After Staal, Girardi, Trouba, and now Lindgren, people are understandably done with intangibles defensemen who don't prevent goals. We've been burned too many times.

It doesn't mean we can't fit that need with a quality player.

Quality players who we can acquire by giving nothing up dont exist sadly. Rangers need to pony up or settle for whats available. If they want a depth D-man Id much rather have Lauzon/Edmundson/Seeler type for a 3rd or 4th than Connor Murphy (for example) for a 1st round pick. Bad analytics and all.
 

aufheben

#Norris4Fox
Jan 31, 2013
53,866
27,720
New Jersey
The Athletic did a “Cup checklist” breakdown of Eastern Conference teams. Projected value is “based on three years of data, weighed for recency and adjusted for age.”

Stanley Cup Checklist Legend

Red X: Falls below the range entirely

Gray checkmark: Passable, but below the average champion

Black checkmark: Above average relative to the average Cup winner

Gold checkmark: Exceeds the range entirely

1709057556184.png
 
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