Ranking Dubas' worst transactions - #2

[Leaffan197703]

The Murray trade for me especially after the mrazek disaster getting two crippled goalies is not a sign of a good gm

 

[Racer88]

It’s an interesting idea that if the cap had went up like it was supposed to these contracts wouldn’t look so bad and that might be the case but the problem we are facing now is the cap is looking like it will go up a lot but our greed players are angling so they can take as much as possible.
Basically nothing will change, we will still be paying the greedy 4 fifty percent or more of the cap. Until he gets rid of at least one of them we are screwed

 

[ACC1224]

Marleau.....am I right ?

Franchise has never recovered from that tragedy.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

Dubas is gone guys, get over it, so we can get back to Lou.

Someone had to say it.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

Murray trade is gaining a lot of momentum in this thread. I'm glad.

 

[francis246]

lol an absolute pleasure and privilege.

The Tavares contract was problematic for reasons beyond the player - the salary, the team and how ready it was, the make up of the roster and cap allocation dollars.

Imagine instead we had Matthews-Kadri-Marner-Nylander and then used some of that salary on a high end defenceman and some depth scoring. Not to mention the lowered expectations, and the potential to slow down the "contender push" which cost us a ton of draft capital.

It was straight up idiotic to allocate 50% of our cap to 4 players who all play the same game and are all forwards, and no, I don't care about COVID. Even without COVID it would have been dumb.



EDIT: comparing him to Sundin? lol Mats carried us a Conference Finals and won a dozen series with us. John won 1 series with us.

You can’t assume that you sign Pietrangelo or he goes to UFA. There were really only two UFA dman that we could have potentially signed. Dougie Hamilton or Pietrangelo everyone else has been trash.

Could you imagine a scenario where you miss out on Tavares, you miss out Pietrangelo and you trade Kadri because of the suspensions. Where would this team be? The grass isn’t always greener. People act like it’s a given we’d be in a better spot by not signing Tavares. There’s an equally likely chance the team is shittier.

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

You can’t assume that you sign Pietrangelo or he goes to UFA. There were really only two UFA dman that we could have potentially signed. Dougie Hamilton or Pietrangelo everyone else has been trash.

Could you imagine a scenario where you miss out on Tavares, you miss out Pietrangelo and you trade Kadri because of the suspensions. Where would this team be? The grass isn’t always greener. People act like it’s a given we’d be in a better spot by not signing Tavares. There’s an equally likely chance the team is shittier.

Disgaree with that fully, but considering it's hypothetical, we'll have to leave it at that.

What isn't hypothetical is that the Leafs have indeed suffered from a complete lack of offensive depth for 4 years in a row now, thanks to the contracts of the big 4.

Someone had to say it.

Strange that it's the guy who has a dozen posts in these 2 threads lol more active in them than even I am!

 

[socko]

The Murray trade for me especially after the mrazek disaster getting two crippled goalies is not a sign of a good gm

The Murray vs the Mrazek sounds kind of like the Monitor vs the Merrimack.

 

[francis246]

Disgaree with that fully, but considering it's hypothetical, we'll have to leave it at that.

What isn't hypothetical is that the Leafs have indeed suffered from a complete lack of offensive depth for 4 years in a row now, thanks to the contracts of the big 4.


Strange that it's the guy who has a dozen posts in these 2 threads lol more active in them than even I am!

More cap space = more chances to f*** up in UFA. I’ve asked this so many times on this board and no one can provide an answer. Who in UFA from the time that Tavares has signed till now (outside of Pietrangelo) would have benefited our team? Which UFA is living up to their contract that would have been influential?

Let’s say we don’t sign Tavares, but the rest of history remains the same. I’m not sure this team is any better. Kadri still gets suspended. It’s probably a harder decision and maybe they end up keeping him. We probably keep Hyman, Kapanen, Johnsson. Hyman is probably a great player, not EDM great but he’s good. Kapanen and Johnsson still both prove to be overpaid and not worth their contracts. Goaltending is still a mess because we still walk away from both Andersen and Campbell. Muzzin still has his back f***ed. We probably go out and sign a UFA to a less terrible deal but probably still one a majority of the fan base hates. Organization still doesn’t trade one of the big 4. Or maybe they swing the Tkachuk trade since they have cap space.

I’m still failing to see how the leafs end up better. Only thing that would be different is maybe we make a splash at the trade deadline and acquire a guy like Hagel or Meier because we have the cap space. Also in the playoffs it isn’t the depth scoring that’s causing us issues in deciding games. It’s the core 4. They are the ones who can’t score in series deciding games.

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

More cap space = more chances to f*** up in UFA. I’ve asked this so many times on this board and no one can provide an answer. Who in UFA from the time that Tavares has signed till now (outside of Pietrangelo) would have benefited our team? Which UFA is living up to their contract that would have been influential?

Let’s say we don’t sign Tavares, but the rest of history remains the same. I’m not sure this team is any better. Kadri still gets suspended. It’s probably a harder decision and maybe they end up keeping him. We probably keep Hyman, Kapanen, Johnsson. Hyman is probably a great player, not EDM great but he’s good. Kapanen and Johnsson still both prove to be overpaid and not worth their contracts. Goaltending is still a mess because we still walk away from both Andersen and Campbell. Muzzin still has his back f***ed. We probably go out and sign a UFA to a less terrible deal but probably still one a majority of the fan base hates. Organization still doesn’t trade one of the big 4. Or maybe they swing the Tkachuk trade since they have cap space.

I’m still failing to see how the leafs end up better. Only thing that would be different is maybe we make a splash at the trade deadline and acquire a guy like Hagel or Meier because we have the cap space. Also in the playoffs it isn’t the depth scoring that’s causing us issues in deciding games. It’s the core 4. They are the ones who can’t score in series deciding games.

Who says it needs to be a UFA?

We've seen all kinds of trades, and the biggest hurdle for making a big move is cap space.

Tavares was the wrong player, at the wrong position, at the wrong time. T=

 

[andora]

I completely forgot about Lou somehow. You can throw Fletcher into that list too. That Steen trade was a big time stinker from what I remember

Hated that deal instantly

The fact that that's not how contracts work remains true. Matthews and Marner being two of the best players in the entire cap era and earning the contracts they got that are consistent with the history of post-ELC contracts had nothing to do with Tavares' UFA contract.

Everybody knew that defense wasn't his strength, but everybody also knew that he was a good player and coming off an excellent playoffs, where he played 5 minutes more per game than any other Colorado defenseman, and was one of Colorado's best players. That's why the trade was widely viewed as a win for the Leafs when it happened.

Barrie was a mess.. he was a mess before his breakout he was a mess before the trade he was a mess after and he is still a mess

That type of player was the furthest from what was needed to supplement the roster, it was a stupid flashy trade that was either rusbed or severely misjudged

 

[francis246]

Who says it needs to be a UFA?

We've seen all kinds of trades, and the biggest hurdle for making a big move is cap space.

Tavares was the wrong player, at the wrong position, at the wrong time. T=

Disagree, Tavares was the right player at the right time and has been a great addition.

The wrong move was not BRIDGING the RFA’s or getting them to sign fair deals to help save dollars on the cap.

Then following that up by not being patient on a Kadri deal and trading him for a legit top 4 dman.

The following that up by walking away from Zach Hyman over TERM not even actual dollars.

Then following that up by not exposing Holl to keep McCann as a depth scoring replacement.

Then following that up by trading for Matt Murray.

All those decisions were made independent of the Tavares contract. They were just bad judgement calls by Dubas. He would have still made all those decisions regardless of Tavares being here. We need to stop blaming Tavares for the incompetence of the organization and the GM at the time.

 

[baton elevated]

Marleau was bad but I chose Murray. The simple reason is because Ottawa was on the ropes and all they got was a paltry 3rd rounder. Come on man!!! If it was reversed we'd be giving a 1st.

 

[andora]

Marleau was bad but I chose Murray. The simple reason is because Ottawa was on the ropes and all they got was a paltry 3rd rounder. Come on man!!! If it was reversed we'd be giving a 1st.

Umm no.. 13 negligible draft positions

 

[LeafSteel]

Murray trade is gaining a lot of momentum in this thread. I'm glad.

How the 10 biggest moves from 2022's goalie carousel panned out

Guess where Sportsnet ranked the Murray trade on it's list?

Pretty sure Jarry will be on it this time next year......

 

[DarkKnight]

Dubas traded 5 first rounders, no wonder our farm system is bottom of the league now. I hope we win soon because it feels like a reckoning is coming, he left this team in a very poor state.

 

[notDatsyuk]

I said our core players have done just as well and better in the playoffs than Eichel's performance this year, which is true. Our core players have had playoffs that have matched or surpassed the performance that Eichel had, even if the team didn't have the same end outcome. I'm not sure how you think cherry picking the 5 game sample that is most favourable to one side and least favourable to the other side and then ignoring the context of their series and that production is an appropriate way to discuss that.

The playoffs are when it matters the most, and our players have performed well in many of them.

You seriously think it's cherry picking to use your own criteria, and use the full sample size of the only time they have played the same opponents under the same circumstances within weeks?

Dekes, you're getting farther and farter away from reality. It's getting to the point where your posts aren't funny any more, but seriously embarrassing.

 

[andora]

You seriously think it's cherry picking to use your own criteria, and use the full sample size of the only time they have played the same opponents under the same circumstances within weeks?

Dekes, you're getting farther and farter away from reality. It's getting to the point where your posts aren't funny any more, but seriously embarrassing.

didn't eichel just outproduce any of our guys in a playoff too?.. he had like 26 or 27 points

 

[francis246]

didn't eichel just outproduce any of our guys in a playoff too?.. he had like 26 or 27 points

He played more games. So im not sure there’s a legit way to measure. He also scored 1 goal in 12 games. So, people bitching about Marner doing similar things yet rushing to praise Eichel is a little hypocritical lol.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Disagree, Tavares was the right player at the right time and has been a great addition.

The wrong move was not BRIDGING the RFA’s or getting them to sign fair deals to help save dollars on the cap.

Then following that up by not being patient on a Kadri deal and trading him for a legit top 4 dman.

The following that up by walking away from Zach Hyman over TERM not even actual dollars.

Then following that up by not exposing Holl to keep McCann as a depth scoring replacement.

Then following that up by trading for Matt Murray.

All those decisions were made independent of the Tavares contract. They were just bad judgement calls by Dubas. He would have still made all those decisions regardless of Tavares being here. We need to stop blaming Tavares for the incompetence of the organization and the GM at the time.

We had a #1C and a #2C, at reasonable costs, and needed defence and goaltending. Tavares was not either a goalie or a defenceman, but a third C, who was overpaid. He's been decent for us, but not the player we needed at the time, and not for that price.

Because of the Tavares acquisition, Dubas signed Matthews (a better player and our #1C) for too much, and then signed Marner for too much, instead of bridging them on reasonable deals.

Because of the Tavares acquisition, Dubas had to trade away his cost-controlled #2C, without getting proper return.

Because of the Tavares acquisition, Dubas had to walk away from Hyman.

Admittedly Dubas made a whole bunch of bad decisions, but most of them were to an extent forced on him by his first mistake - acquiring Tavares.

 

[notDatsyuk]

didn't eichel just outproduce any of our guys in a playoff too?.. he had like 26 or 27 points

Even just in the playoff games where we both faced the same opponent (apparently it's 'cherry picking' to compare equals), Eichel had as many points as all three of our best forwards combined, and more points than our three highest paid forwards combined.

 

[francis246]

We had a #1C and a #2C, at reasonable costs, and needed defence and goaltending. Tavares was not either a goalie or a defenceman, but a third C, who was overpaid. He's been decent for us, but not the player we needed at the time, and not for that price.

Because of the Tavares acquisition, Dubas signed Matthews (a better player and our #1C) for too much, and then signed Marner for too much, instead of bridging them on reasonable deals.

Because of the Tavares acquisition, Dubas had to trade away his cost-controlled #2C, without getting proper return.

Because of the Tavares acquisition, Dubas had to walk away from Hyman.

Admittedly Dubas made a whole bunch of bad decisions, but most of them were to an extent forced on him by his first mistake - acquiring Tavares.

Oh my God for fck sakes. The Kadri trade had nothing to do with Tavares. The organization made a decision to move on from him because they felt he was immature. So many of us have showed you the numbers we COULD have kept Kadri with the Tavares signing, Matthews, Marner and Nylander signings. We took on MORE CAP by acquiring Kerfoot and Barrie. When are you gonna get that through your head man?

Even just in the games where we both faced the same opponent (apparently it's 'cherry picking' to compare equals), Eichel had as many points as all three of our best forwards combined, and more points than our three highest paid forwards combined.

Lol Eichel scored zero goals against Florida. 1 goal in last 13/14 games in the playoffs

 

[notDatsyuk]

Oh my God for fck sakes. The Kadri trade had nothing to do with Tavares. The organization made a decision to move on from him because they felt he was immature. So many of us have showed you the numbers we COULD have kept Kadri with the Tavares signing, Matthews, Marner and Nylander signings. We took on MORE CAP by acquiring Kerfoot and Barrie. When are you gonna get that through your head man?



Lol Eichel scored zero goals against Florida. 1 goal in last 13/14 games in the playoffs

Having either Kadri or Tavares at 3C would have been stupid, even for Dubas, and since he was trying to justify his acquisition, he dumped Kadri. Not sure why you have so much trouble understanding that.

Eichel scored zero goals against Florida - so he scored as many goals as Matthews and Tavares combined, and more assists than all four combined?

 

[francis246]

We had a #1C and a #2C, at reasonable costs, and needed defence and goaltending. Tavares was not either a goalie or a defenceman, but a third C, who was overpaid. He's been decent for us, but not the player we needed at the time, and not for that price.

Because of the Tavares acquisition, Dubas signed Matthews (a better player and our #1C) for too much, and then signed Marner for too much, instead of bridging them on reasonable deals.

Because of the Tavares acquisition, Dubas had to trade away his cost-controlled #2C, without getting proper return.

Because of the Tavares acquisition, Dubas had to walk away from Hyman.

Admittedly Dubas made a whole bunch of bad decisions, but most of them were to an extent forced on him by his first mistake - acquiring Tavares.

The funniest part is we could have kept Hyman too. Again Dubas decided to walk away too much term. We could have had Hyman and bunting. If Dubas was so stubborn on Kerfoot and Holl. Tavares being there really didn’t have the effect you think it did. We get it you don,t like him. But the choices Dubas made were because Dubas liked certain guys more than others. None of those moves were cap moves. Just dumb decisions.

Having either Kadri or Tavares at 3C would have been stupid, even for Dubas, and since he was trying to justify his acquisition, he dumped Kadri. Not sure why you have so much trouble understanding that.

Eichel scored zero goals against Florida - so he scored as many goals as Matthews and Tavares combined, and more assists than all four combined?

Lol keep moving the goal posts. If Marner leads a series in assists and scores 0 goals you and a host of others are bitching non stop about it.

 

[francis246]

Having either Kadri or Tavares at 3C would have been stupid, even for Dubas, and since he was trying to justify his acquisition, he dumped Kadri. Not sure why you have so much trouble understanding that.

Eichel scored zero goals against Florida - so he scored as many goals as Matthews and Tavares combined, and more assists than all four combined?

No it wouldn’t have been stupid. It’s called having flexibility. We just had Ryan O’Reilly as our third line Center. Was that stupid or having good Center depth.

Tampa at one point had Point, Cierelli, Johnson down the middle. Stupid or good Center depth?