Ranking Dubas' worst transactions - #2

[ACC1224]

Tavares “taking a discount” to come to Toronto is PR fluff meant to make a feel good story feel even better.

Every detail about that contract as well as the captaincy amounted to a coronation for a home coming player and nothing was left on the table from a financial, linemate or status POV.

People are free to diminish Nathan Mackinnon all they want. That he didn’t take a discount, his offensive stats suck or whatever. But he won a Stanley Cup. And that seems to be the high bar where you want to give a guy everything afterwards.

The rumoured San Jose offer always seemed way too convenient never believed it for a second.

 

[NMacrules]

Getting bent over by agents and giving 3 choke artists a bunch of money that has now come back to bite them in the ass. Or it could be handing out picks like they were free candy to fill bottom 6 player spots. This idiot mortgaged the future, put the team in financial hell. He was a clown and the Pens fell for the crap he was selling. He will run that team into the ground. Good riddance!!

 

[Antropovsky]

Some of us said from the start that the Tavares signing was a mistake.

Some of us still can't see it, even with the benefit of hindsight.

It's still not a mistake. 63 point Dubois was just given 8.5 million for 8 years.

He a center, he's a top tier goal scorer, defensively responsible, great faceoffs and a great teammate.

The problem was the Marner deal, the Kadri trade, hiring a rookie coach (biggest problem), Kerfoot deal, making silent emotionless gritless Tavares captain (rumor was Shanahan wanted Matthews but Dubas wanted Tavares), Campbell/Mrazek deals.

The big problem by far was making Dubas the GM.... In hindsight it looks even worse. It's great how Brad seems to have steered it back on track, he's hired people with experience.

The next biggest problem was the coaching. The leafs literally coached high risk plays into their systems. Marner throws two giveaway passes vs Flyers that end up in the back of our net (a third that didn't go in) and he gets one shift off and basically an apology from the coach. Meanwhile Trotz showed no shame in benching Barzal when he was playing loose. Trotz even discussed how the Leafs play too high risk in playoffs last season. Each playoffs that Keefe has coached has primarily been lost due to bad giveaways instead of safe plays.

The team definitely had the talent to win, the problem was management and coaching. No question this teams biggest problem was Keefe/Dubas... Though I think Dubas was also the puppet master for Keefe.

Couldn't be happier that Dubas is gone.

 

[francis246]

It's an interesting one.

I can see the validity of your point and it is fair.

I feel that yes Tavares' contract had an impact but not as much as we'd believe. In fact, It lets Dubas off the hook by saying he made one bad decision which led to everything else. I say no, he got schooled in all three RFA negotiations and the worst of the lot was Marner. The comparables for Marner even during the negotiation period were in the 9-9.5 range on a long-term deal.

He was a winger with a single 90-point season and four RFA years. Dubas got absolutely worked over by Marner and his agent. Tavares' cap hit and the expected cap increase that didn't happen are all excuses for some average negotiating by Dubas.

Exactly the two are not mutually exclusive. He got wrecked by the RFA’s. Personally there were decisions made by the organization during the ELC years that led to this. In hindsight, we should have allowed Willy to play 10 games in the NHL in 2014/15 to burn a year off his ELC. He was ready anyways. Having all three expire so close to each other was not the move.

The rumoured San Jose offer always seemed way too convenient never believed it for a second.

More than likely was used to up the price in Toronto.

 

[Dekes For Days]

No, our core players have done this countless times UNTIL IT REALLY MATTERED!

Our core players have done just as well and better in the playoffs than Eichel's performance this year. The only difference is Eichel's team ended up winning. We all know what the response would be if Eichel was here, didn't score a goal for 12 straight playoff games, and largely got carried by a 5m depth player that won the Conn Smythe over him.

 

[Antropovsky]

The rumoured San Jose offer always seemed way too convenient never believed it for a second.

John Tavares, Sharks face off with no regrets over how free agency unfolded

www.google.com

So Chris Johnston just made it up, in this very article he also interviewed San Joses coach.

"They were even willing to go as high as $91-million to sign No. 91, which is $2-million more per season on a seven-year deal than he ended up getting from the Toronto Maple Leafs."

It was common knowledge also that Islander offered 88 million over 8.

Tavares most definitely took less to be a Leaf. It's ridiculous that people are doubting all the reports from numerous media sources that reported it at the time.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Elite is not debatable, and there were no excessive amounts.

Wrong as usual Dekes, but at least you're consistent.

And humorous.

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

It's not bad enough to include here, but man, Jarnkrok's playoff numbers are horrific:

Considering scoring goals is the only thing he really brings, that's brutal.

 

[notDatsyuk]

It's still not a mistake. 63 point Dubois was just given 8.5 million for 8 years.

He a center, he's a top tier goal scorer, defensively responsible, great faceoffs and a great teammate.

The problem was the Marner deal, the Kadri trade, hiring a rookie coach (biggest problem), Kerfoot deal, making silent emotionless gritless Tavares captain (rumor was Shanahan wanted Matthews but Dubas wanted Tavares), Campbell/Mrazek deals.

The big problem by far was making Dubas the GM.... In hindsight it looks even worse. It's great how Brad seems to have steered it back on track, he's hired people with experience.

The next biggest problem was the coaching. The leafs literally coached high risk plays into their systems. Marner throws two giveaway passes vs Flyers that end up in the back of our net (a third that didn't go in) and he gets one shift off and basically an apology from the coach. Meanwhile Trotz showed no shame in benching Barzal when he was playing loose. Trotz even discussed how the Leafs play too high risk in playoffs last season. Each playoffs that Keefe has coached has primarily been lost due to bad giveaways instead of safe plays.

The team definitely had the talent to win, the problem was management and coaching. No question this teams biggest problem was Keefe/Dubas... Though I think Dubas was also the puppet master for Keefe.

Couldn't be happier that Dubas is gone.

He is a center (although not as good any more) and great at faceoffs, not as good defensively as some claim, and we really can't know about 'great teammate'.

Just because someone got what you consider an overpayment doesn't mean someone else didn't - that's very poor logic.

But the point wasn't the amount (although that wasn't good either). It was that we didn't need a 2C (especially for $11M).

As you say, the Marner deal, the Kadri trade, Tavares given the 'C' are all problems, but they all go back to signing an unnecessary player at too high a salary.

All the rest I agree with.

 

[Stephen]

If a player took less than what the market offers them, how is that not a discount?

His worth is set by the market, not some nobodies on a forum.

Well first of all, Tavares only wanted to play in Toronto. So whatever San Jose may or may not have offered wouldn’t have come with the condition of being a Leaf which is ultimately what JT was looking for.

Secondly, Toronto paid a UFA premium for Tavares as you’d expect, in line with what someone like Panarin got a year later as a star UFA in the $11 million range.

So basically we paid full retail for a player and have spent the last 5 years patting each other on the back about how we got a big discount. What a way to spend time.

 

[seventieslord]

It's not bad enough to include here, but man, Jarnkrok's playoff numbers are horrific:

View attachment 730888

Considering scoring goals is the only thing he really brings, that's brutal.

It's true that those playoff numbers are brutal, but to say that scoring goals is the only thing he really brings is untrue. He's brought a very strong defensive impact everywhere he's gone in his career.

 

[NinjaKick]

is firing yourself during your own contract negotiation a transaction?

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

It's true that those playoff numbers are brutal, but to say that scoring goals is the only thing he really brings is untrue. He's brought a very strong defensive impact everywhere he's gone in his career.

Very strong is overkill.

IMO we need to stop looking at having so many of these "low event" types.

 

[notbias]

Well first of all, Tavares only wanted to play in Toronto. So whatever San Jose may or may not have offered wouldn’t have come with the condition of being a Leaf which is ultimately what JT was looking for.

Secondly, Toronto paid a UFA premium for Tavares as you’d expect, in line with what someone like Panarin got a year later as a star UFA in the $11 million range.

So basically we paid full retail for a player and have spent the last 5 years patting each other on the back about how we got a big discount. What a way to spend time.

Tavares met with other teams because he only wanted to play in Toronto? Why didn't we just pay league minimum if he would only come here?

No matter how hard you try, there was still a discount taken. I'm not even defending the contract, but a discount was taken.

It's not bad enough to include here, but man, Jarnkrok's playoff numbers are horrific:

View attachment 730888

Considering scoring goals is the only thing he really brings, that's brutal.

The McCann of the Leafs (people keep saying we made a mistake by not keeping him)

 

[notDatsyuk]

Our core players have done just as well and better in the playoffs than Eichel's performance this year. The only difference is Eichel's team ended up winning. We all know what the response would be if Eichel was here, didn't score a goal for 12 straight playoff games, and largely got carried by a 5m depth player that won the Conn Smythe over him.

In five games against Florida:

Eichel 8 points
Marner and Nylander 3 points each
Matthews 2 points
Tavares 1 point.

He had as many points as our three best forwards, and more than our three highest paid.

But you're right - our core players have done just as well and better, but only if you add all four together!

 

[Dekes For Days]

In five games against Florida:

Why are you cherry picking one series that's best for Eichel and worst for our players, that you've excluded all critical context for?
Funniest part is, if Eichel was here, we'd just be calling him a bum for not scoring a single goal and getting carried by Marchessault, while playing with no intensity.

 

[ACC1224]

In five games against Florida:

Eichel 8 points
Marner and Nylander 3 points each
Matthews 2 points
Tavares 1 point.

He had as many points as our three best forwards, and more than our three highest paid.

But you're right - our core players have done just as well and better, but only if you add all four together!

Checkmate!

 

[notDatsyuk]

Tavares met with other teams because he only wanted to play in Toronto? Why didn't we just pay league minimum if he would only come here?

No matter how hard you try, there was still a discount taken. I'm not even defending the contract, but a discount was taken.



The McCann of the Leafs (people keep saying we made a mistake by not keeping him)

Even if you're set on buying a Grand Caravan, it doesn't hurt to have quotes from Ford and Toyota when you walk into the dealership.

He's worth more than league minimum as a player, but that doesn't automatically mean he's worth top dollar.

Why are you cherry picking one series that's best for Eichel and worst for our players, that you've excluded all critical context for?
Funniest part is, if Eichel was here, we'd just be calling him a bum for not scoring a single goal and getting carried by Marchessault, while playing with no intensity.

Seriously? I didn't 'cherry pick'. You said 'this year' and I used, as the most valid comparison, the same number of games against the same opponent.

 

[socko]

So basically we paid full retail for a player and have spent the last 5 years patting each other on the back about how we got a big discount. What a way to spend time.

Full retail is a win for Dubas. He usually pays boutique prices.

 

[egd27]

No, the team they're on and the playoff success of that team is irrelevant. Our players being better makes them better.

I guess some just expect that since our players are supposedly better, this irrelevant team playoff success would be more abundant. I know I'm an older fan, but I can remember when teams with the better players won Stanley Cups. (or at least multiple playoff rounds)

 

[Captain Crunch]

Our core players have done just as well and better in the playoffs than Eichel's performance this year. The only difference is Eichel's team ended up winning. We all know what the response would be if Eichel was here, didn't score a goal for 12 straight playoff games, and largely got carried by a 5m depth player that won the Conn Smythe over him.

But you didn’t answer my question: When have they actually performed when IT MATTERED THE MOST??? Simple answer: THEY HAVEN’T! So I’m anxious to see how much Matthews gets, and for what term? And next year we’ll see what Marner gets. But maybe we just might win a few rounds this season. Who knows?

 

[egd27]

Dubas is gone guys, get over it, so we can get back to Lou.

Marleau.....am I right ?

 

[Zur En Arrh]

Tough crowd.

Tavares level players hitting the market never happens and when one from the area did and he chose us and actually didn't suck, he maintained his play and should for the next two seasons. He didn't come in and bomb, but he's the worst move I guess. All of those terrible moves the franchise has made in just Dubas time frame and JT who will statistically go down may be 15 top in scoring for the organization all-time inside his 1st contract, the one we are discussing, is his worst move as GM.

Right?. Imagine getting sundin for free.. just unreal. John's been nothing but legit leader and num1 center since he got here. something we hadn't had in almost 2 decades. Imagine thinking singing John f***ing Tavares was a mistake.. it's been an absolute pleasure and privilege having Tavares as our captain.. smh

 

[Dekes For Days]

Seriously? I didn't 'cherry pick'. You said 'this year' and I used, as the most valid comparison, the same number of games against the same opponent.

I said our core players have done just as well and better in the playoffs than Eichel's performance this year, which is true. Our core players have had playoffs that have matched or surpassed the performance that Eichel had, even if the team didn't have the same end outcome. I'm not sure how you think cherry picking the 5 game sample that is most favourable to one side and least favourable to the other side and then ignoring the context of their series and that production is an appropriate way to discuss that.

When have they actually performed when IT MATTERED THE MOST?

The playoffs are when it matters the most, and our players have performed well in many of them.

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

Right?. Imagine getting sundin for free.. just unreal. John's been nothing but legit leader and num1 center since he got here. something we hadn't had in almost 2 decades. Imagine thinking singing John f***ing Tavares was a mistake.. it's been an absolute pleasure and privilege having Tavares as our captain.. smh

lol an absolute pleasure and privilege.

The Tavares contract was problematic for reasons beyond the player - the salary, the team and how ready it was, the make up of the roster and cap allocation dollars.

Imagine instead we had Matthews-Kadri-Marner-Nylander and then used some of that salary on a high end defenceman and some depth scoring. Not to mention the lowered expectations, and the potential to slow down the "contender push" which cost us a ton of draft capital.

It was straight up idiotic to allocate 50% of our cap to 4 players who all play the same game and are all forwards, and no, I don't care about COVID. Even without COVID it would have been dumb.



EDIT: comparing him to Sundin? lol Mats carried us a Conference Finals and won a dozen series with us. John won 1 series with us.