Ranking Dubas' worst transactions - #2

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What was Dubas' worst transaction?


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So they have an owner and GM who know how to circumvent the cap, just like Tampa did.
Yeah, it's called getting lucky with injury timing and then cheating.
As far as goalies, look at what Dubas, but mainly Shanny, did to acquire a goalie. Not a hell of a lot
We've brought in a ton of goalies, and they certainly did a heck of a lot more than Vegas, who just grabbed 2 goalies that had struggled to hold an NHL job as even a backup.
And it appears that no matter which goalie the other team has when the Leafs play them in the playoffs, they stil get outgoalied (5 straight years!).
Samsonov outperformed Vasilevsky, the best goalie of a generation, just this past year.
They want to be paid, but can’t get this team over the hump!
Team results are a result of the team. They want to be paid for their individual quality and impact, just like everybody else.
 
Rantanen had 26 pts in 20 games the year they won the Cup, and makes basically $1.7 million less, AND let’s not forget what McKinnon did to help the team out! But yeah, let’s pay Marner more because he’s entitled to because he’s a Leaf and Shanahan doesn’t mind overpaying his “stars who can’t produce when it matters the most! LMFAO”!

But I guess we won’t know anything until next offseason regarding Marner. IF he wants to win, he will be willing to help the team. IF he wants to be paid, he won’t. The same goes for Matthews this year.

Sorry Peasy, this reply was meant for Dekes.

I don’t get why you keep saying Marner should be paid less than Rantanen? What part of Rantanen signed after Marner are you not getting? If Marner had signed after Rantanen I’d completely agree with you. But the Leafs themself couldn’t even use Rantanen as a sticking point because Rantanen signed AFTER they already signed Marner. 10 million was the market place. Then Marner signed and reset the market. Teams then set their own internal cap. Going on and on and on about something that wasn’t even in play to begin with is dumb. The Rantanen contract did not exist to be used as a comparable. Good for Colorado for getting him to come in at 9.5 after Marner signed for 10.93
 
Rightly or wrongly, you tell me who gets paid more, a #1 center or a #1 winger? And I’m not 100% anti-Marner. I believe both he and Matthews looked out for themselves and never thought for a second about taking any kind of hometown discount, as did Tavares. And yes, that’s their right. And maybe this time around, they may change their tune, although highly unlikely! This is not on Dubas, this is all on Shanahan and the board, who seem star struck on these two (yes, that’s just my opinion), and will give them whatever they want.

Also, I was replying to Dekes, who thinks that our stars, especially Marner, are more talented and worth more than Eichel. And I was pointing out they’re not, especially when Eichel is making basically $1 million less. And yes again, that’s his opinion vs mine.
By pretty well every metric, Marner has been better than Eichel. The salary difference is opinion so fine with that. It just that I have always found the correlation of value to only be causal insomuch as centers are usually the best forwards. The position requires good 2 way players but it's not like we aren't seeing that from Marner. Typically, centers are playmaker and forwards are finishers. Playmaker are a rare breed.
In short, the very best of Marners skills suit a typical center in spades.
 
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Ceci wasn’t a 3C but he was a waste of cap dollars. You keep saying Tavares limited this and that. I don’t see how Tavares’ contract influenced Dubas to overpay for a 3rd pairing D?

My point is we still had a good amount of money left even after the Tavares signing. Dubas made bad decisions on his own because he thought he was being innovative. Not because he was limited by the Tavares contract.



Agreed. They should have convinced him to take a bridge. I’m sure they tried but it should have been sign the bridge or don’t play. Simple.
I know Ceci wasn't a 3C. I was just laughing at how I said they didn't need three centers making almost 30M, so they traded Kadri's 4.5, and your response was that they paid Ceci that much.

But no, Ceci was another bad deal by a GM desperate to try to fix his earlier mistake or spending $11M on someone we didn't need, instead of spending it where we did need it. Do you think he would have signed Ceci if he had $11M to find a good D? (Well, maybe, knowing his track record to that point.)
 
I know Ceci wasn't a 3C. I was just laughing at how I said they didn't need three centers making almost 30M, so they traded Kadri's 4.5, and your response was that they paid Ceci that much.

But no, Ceci was another bad deal by a GM desperate to try to fix his earlier mistake or spending $11M on someone we didn't need, instead of spending it where we did need it. Do you think he would have signed Ceci if he had $11M to find a good D? (Well, maybe, knowing his track record to that point.)

Yes that’s my exact point. He would have still made the Ceci deal. That’s the guy he wanted. Even with Kadri on the roster we still had about 8 million to address the defense which was more than enough to add a good one through trade and sign a depth one. He decided to use that 8 million on a half retained Barrie and 4.5 of the 8 million on Ceci. That’s incompetence.

I bet in a Candid moment if asked, Dubas would have kept all 3 centers and walked Kadri to UFA.
 
Yes that’s my exact point. He would have still made the Ceci deal. That’s the guy he wanted.
To be clear, Ceci was a return from dumping Zaitsev, and Ottawa had already qualified him and he was set for arbitration, looking for a raise on the 4.3m he made the year before.
Also, Ceci wasn't good offensively, but he was underrated in how much he helped stabilize things defensively until we were able to get Brodie.
 
No, that's not true. Barrie has fallen off over the past few years, and he always had weaknesses, but he was also a good player.
Your perception of him is clearly impacted by how he performed here.

We had just got finished losing a playoff series because Boston repeatedly targeted the right side of our defense and trapped us in, because nobody on the right side could move a puck. We were losing an offensive defenseman in Gardiner. People here were demanding a shot from the point for the PP. We were in a tight cap squeeze and needed a top-4 defenseman for cheap. And Kadri had hit like strike 15 and the consensus around here was that he had to go. There were some other types of defensemen that people wanted too (which we tried to get and then did get a year later in Brodie and Bogosian), but the idea that Barrie wasn't viewed as a piece that filled holes is just revisionist history. It was widely viewed as a win at the time by even the harshest critics.

I'm not sure what you think a highlight package proves. That video is what our guys do.

That wasn't my criteria. The only one who decided to cherry pick out a 5 game sample that most benefitted Eichel and least benefitted our players while ignoring all of the context of the series and production was you, all on your own.
What does a highlight package prove? It proves Eichel was phenomenal and not being "carried by a 5 million dollar player" as you suggested.

Show me a highlight package of playoff Marner like the one I posted of Eichel.
 
What does a highlight package prove? It proves Eichel was phenomenal and not being "carried by a 5 million dollar player" as you suggested.
Highlight packages prove nothing. It's inherently a list of cherry picked positive moments. It doesn't prove Eichel was phenomenal, or better than our players, and it doesn't prove that he didn't benefit massively from Marchessault's performance.
 
Highlight packages prove nothing. It's inherently a list of cherry picked positive moments. It doesn't prove Eichel was phenomenal, or better than our players, and it doesn't prove that he didn't benefit massively from Marchessault's performance.
A highlight package is visual evidence of talent and skill lol. Feel free to show everyone a similar highlight package with cherry picked positive moments from Marners playoffs.
 
The only thing a highlight package shows is that good players have positive moments, which is already obvious.


How would you rank dubas top 5 worst moves?

By definition he has to have worst moves, Unless they are all the exact same and completely identical in your eyes
 
The only thing a highlight package shows is that good players have positive moments, which is already obvious. It doesn't mean anything.
Eichel had 26 points in 22 games... You said he was carried by a 5 million linemate. This highlight package of those very playoffs are proof your wrong. He was dominant.

You said our guys looked like this. Surely then you can prove your point by showing everyone a cherry picked highlight video of Marner looking this good in the playoffs. Right? Looking forward to your reasoning why you can't lol.
 
This highlight package of those very playoffs are proof your wrong.
No, it's not. Highlight packages prove nothing. It is showing a tiny percentage of his play where only the positive moments are cherry picked. Every player is going to have good moments, especially good players. That is not an accurate representation of the overall quality of his play throughout the playoffs. It is by very definition a skewed view.

Usually, somebody only goes through the trouble of creating and uploading highlight packages when their team wins the cup. I don't know if highlight packages exist for Marner, and I don't care - because again, they're useless - but if they did, they would show much of the same.
 
I don’t get why you keep saying Marner should be paid less than Rantanen? What part of Rantanen signed after Marner are you not getting? If Marner had signed after Rantanen I’d completely agree with you. But the Leafs themself couldn’t even use Rantanen as a sticking point because Rantanen signed AFTER they already signed Marner. 10 million was the market place. Then Marner signed and reset the market. Teams then set their own internal cap. Going on and on and on about something that wasn’t even in play to begin with is dumb. The Rantanen contract did not exist to be used as a comparable. Good for Colorado for getting him to come in at 9.5 after Marner signed for
Okay, I’ll put the blame where it needs to go. Ultimately, it goes to MLSE. They’re making a shitload of money despite this team’s playing without passion at times, including playoffs, as well as their inability to win in crucial situations. Then we pass it on down to Shanahan, and on to Dubas.

This team is great in the regular season, not so great in the postseason, which they have proven over the past 5 years (yes, they won one round this year, then went out rather quickly the next round).

Being a Leafs fan for as long as I have, it’s very frustrating to see how management has royally screwed this team. Not a lot to hope for in the minors, precious few draft picks for the next 3 years, and our bottom six leaves much to be desired. On top of that, management seems more than willing to open the vault for Matthews and Marner. And I would probably be okay with that as long as that would leave enough to build a proper supporting cast (and yes, I like the Bertuzzi and Domi signings, but I don’t like the amount they gave Klinkberg, even though it’s for one year). But it also wouldn’t hurt for AM and MM to leave some on the table, since it would create a little more wiggle room (I know MM’s chance to resign isn’t up until next year).

I have zero interest in cheering for another team. I know it’s hard to believe, but I bleed blue and white. As I’ve said, it’s just so frustrating to see what shape we’re in with basically no playoff success.
 
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How would you rank dubas top 5 worst moves?
I think it's a pretty silly waste of time to go around ranking the moves of a guy who doesn't even work for the team anymore, but off the top of my head, my least favourite moves would probably include some of the goaltending choices, signings like Simmonds/NAK/Ritchie, and our 2021 deadline choices. Unfortunately, we couldn't even properly discuss most of those at the time, because people were too busy misrepresenting and exaggerating everything.
 
He was always a fine player with loads of skill.. but he was a mess as well..
Terribpe target with our best trade chip
You can't be a good player and a mess at the same time. He was a good player, that like many players, had flaws. He wasn't ideal (which is why he wasn't the initial target), but he did fill a role we needed filled, checked off a lot of boxes that people wanted, and the one year term meant that we could try and get Brodie the next offseason. It's hilarious that so many people talk about how we should have traded Kadri for a top-4 defensive defenseman with term, and not doing so destroyed the team, but that's literally what we ended up with a year later.

People massively overrate the actual "trade chip" value of a ~50 point center that's below average defensively, PP dependent, and coming off a bad season and two consecutive playoff suspensions after a long history of issues.
 
Yes that’s my exact point. He would have still made the Ceci deal. That’s the guy he wanted. Even with Kadri on the roster we still had about 8 million to address the defense which was more than enough to add a good one through trade and sign a depth one. He decided to use that 8 million on a half retained Barrie and 4.5 of the 8 million on Ceci. That’s incompetence.

I bet in a Candid moment if asked, Dubas would have kept all 3 centers and walked Kadri to UFA.
Your point was that if he had $11M instead of $4.5 he still would have signed just Ceci to fix our D?

Entirely possible, but even dumber.
 
Okay, I’ll put the blame where it needs to go. Ultimately, it goes to MLSE. They’re making a shitload of money despite this team’s playing without passion at times, including playoffs, as well as their inability to win in crucial situations. Then we pass it on down to Shanahan, and on to Dubas.

This team is great in the regular season, not so great in the postseason, which they have proven over the past 5 years (yes, they won one round this year, then went out rather quickly the next round).

Being a Leafs fan for as long as I have, it’s very frustrating to see how management has royally screwed this team. Not a lot to hope for in the minors, precious few draft picks for the next 3 years, and our bottom six leaves much to be desired. On top of that, management seems more than willing to open the vault for Matthews and Marner. And I would probably be okay with that as long as that would leave enough to build a proper supporting cast (and yes, I like the Bertuzzi and Domi signings, but I don’t like the amount they gave Klinkberg, even though it’s for one year). But it also wouldn’t hurt for AM and MM to leave some on the table, since it would create a little more wiggle room (I know MM’s chance to resign isn’t up until next year).

I have zero interest in cheering for another team. I know it’s hard to believe, but I bleed blue and white. As I’ve said, it’s just so frustrating to see what shape we’re in with basically no playoff success.

I agree 100% with your post. I think they should have put their foot down hard in those negotiations or waited it out until after Point or Rantanen signed. I did hear a rumour that those two were waiting until Marner signed. I think everyone knows Marner is scared to be traded so he’d cave. It’s an organizational flaw.

Your point was that if he had $11M instead of $4.5 he still would have signed just Ceci to fix our D?

Entirely possible, but even dumber.

Yes because early in Dubas’ tenure he was very dead set in the type of player he liked. With more cap space he may have even given Ceci more money and more term.

I get it, there’s an element to having that $11 mill where you feel we could have distributed that better to make a more balanced team. But there’s also an element that the $11 mill could have been spent really badly. It’s literally 50/50. There’s no guarantee we would have been better off without Tavares. We’ll never know. But based on Dubas’ moves I’m not convinced we would have been extremely better.
 
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You can't be a good player and a mess at the same time. He was a good player, that like many players, had flaws. He wasn't ideal (which is why he wasn't the initial target), but he did fill a role we needed filled, checked off a lot of boxes that people wanted, and the one year term meant that we could try and get Brodie the next offseason. It's hilarious that so many people talk about how we should have traded Kadri for a top-4 defensive defenseman with term, and not doing so destroyed the team, but that's literally what we ended up with a year later.

People massively overrate the actual "trade chip" value of a ~50 point center that's below average defensively, PP dependent, and coming off a bad season and two consecutive playoff suspensions after a long history of issues.
We just disagree.. and that is fine.
 
By pretty well every metric, Marner has been better than Eichel. The salary difference is opinion so fine with that. It just that I have always found the correlation of value to only be causal insomuch as centers are usually the best forwards. The position requires good 2 way players but it's not like we aren't seeing that from Marner. Typically, centers are playmaker and forwards are finishers. Playmaker are a rare breed.
In short, the very best of Marners skills suit a typical center in spades.
And you are spot on with your assessment. Although I feel Eichel also plays with an edge, whereas Marner tends to shy away. It’s just so frustrating that Matthews and Marner took Dubas (I still say Shanahan was the main culprit) to the cleaners with their last contract. And from what I’m hearing (no, no legitimate sources), there will be no money left on the table after Matthews signs, so therefore none after Marner signs either. At some point, I think management needs to make a stand. Just because huge mistakes were made on the last negotiations, doesn’t mean they need to keep doing it.
 
And you are spot on with your assessment. Although I feel Eichel also plays with an edge, whereas Marner tends to shy away. It’s just so frustrating that Matthews and Marner took Dubas (I still say Shanahan was the main culprit) to the cleaners with their last contract. And from what I’m hearing (no, no legitimate sources), there will be no money left on the table after Matthews signs, so therefore none after Marner signs either. At some point, I think management needs to make a stand. Just because huge mistakes were made on the last negotiations, doesn’t mean they need to keep doing it.
Treeliving is his own guy. Grateful we don't have someone like Holland making the deals.
 
Yeah, it's called getting lucky with injury timing and then cheating.

We've brought in a ton of goalies, and they certainly did a heck of a lot more than Vegas, who just grabbed 2 goalies that had struggled to hold an NHL job as even a backup.

Samsonov outperformed Vasilevsky, the best goalie of a generation, just this past year.

Team results are a result of the team. They want to be paid for their individual quality and impact, just like everybody else.
So Leafs can keep playing by the rules, although if a team was cheating, you would certainly think the other owners would put a stop to it (or maybe they’re all waiting until they get their chance).

Yup, we’ve brought in a ton of goalies, only to get out of the 1st round once in 5 years. But hey, let’s talk about all that regular season success. Meanwhile, Vegas was able to win it all with their subpar goalies. Of course, having a very well-balanced team certainly played a big part!

Yes, Samsonov outperformed Vasi, but then our vaunted offense got outgoalied by Babrovsky. That scenario sure sounds familiar!

Totally agree it takes a team effort, but that should include doing whatever you can to help your team. Wouldn’t it be nice if Tree and Pridham had a few extra million to work with? The boys can’t have it both ways.
 

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