Ranking Dubas' worst transactions - #2

[andora]

No, that's not true. Barrie has fallen off over the past few years, and he always had weaknesses, but he was also a good player.
Your perception of him is clearly impacted by how he performed here.

We had just got finished losing a playoff series because Boston repeatedly targeted the right side of our defense and trapped us in, because nobody on the right side could move a puck. We were losing an offensive defenseman in Gardiner. People here were demanding a shot from the point for the PP. We were in a tight cap squeeze and needed a top-4 defenseman for cheap. And Kadri had hit like strike 15 and the consensus around here was that he had to go. There were some other types of defensemen that people wanted too (which we tried to get and then did get a year later in Brodie and Bogosian), but the idea that Barrie wasn't viewed as a piece that filled holes is just revisionist history. It was widely viewed as a win at the time by even the harshest critics.

I'm not sure what you think a highlight package proves. That video is what our guys do.

That wasn't my criteria. The only one who decided to cherry pick out a 5 game sample that most benefitted Eichel and least benefitted our players while ignoring all of the context of the series and production was you, all on your own.

I watched him in junior and for years in colorado

 

[Dekes For Days]

I watched him in junior and for years in colorado

Then you'd know he was a good player, even with his weaknesses.

 

[ToneDog]

..... This video is what we only wish our 11 million dollar guys could do. Complete package, size, strength, speed, puckhandling, passing, shot.

Matty has all the tools. What is missing is the "will" to play outside his comfort zone. Make life difficult for the 3 amigos and they will fold. Seen it 6 consecutive years.

 

[Leafs at Knight]

I mean Marner is overpaid by like a million, but at what point does playing on both ends of the ice count for anything? People always just bring up offence in any argument, but never mention defence/PK, probably isn't mentioned for a reason, wouldn't help their arguments.

This is a classic dumb middle of the summer thread, quickly reminded why I barely look at this site during the summer.

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

This is a classic dumb middle of the summer thread, quickly reminded why I barely look at this site during the summer.

Thank you

 

[Leafs at Knight]

Thank you

anytime

 

[ACC1224]

I mean Marner is overpaid by like a million, but at what point does playing on both ends of the ice count for anything? People always just bring up offence in any argument, but never mention defence/PK, probably isn't mentioned for a reason, wouldn't help their arguments.

This is a classic dumb middle of the summer thread, quickly reminded why I barely look at this site during the summer.

A look back at the previous GM after he was terminated would have occurred no matter the time of year.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

Elite is not debatable, and there were no excessive amounts.

E volution
L ayered with
I nsightful
T houghts
E mbarrassment

If I were to make a "Best Dubas transactions" poll set, what would be some homerun choices?

I was thinking:

- Drafting Knies
- Kapanen for top 15 pick
- Muzzin trade (?)
- Schenn trade
- Signing Mikheyev
- Drafting Sandin
- Mrazek trade to Chicago

A good list. I was excited when Dubas traded for ROR. Also taking a chance on Samsonov.

 

[Captain Crunch]

I said our core players have done just as well and better in the playoffs than Eichel's performance this year, which is true. Our core players have had playoffs that have matched or surpassed the performance that Eichel had, even if the team didn't have the same end outcome. I'm not sure how you think cherry picking the 5 game sample that is most favourable to one side and least favourable to the other side and then ignoring the context of their series and that production is an appropriate way to discuss that.

The playoffs are when it matters the most, and our players have performed well in many of them.

Against Tampa, Matthews got 9 pts, but 4 of them came in blowouts (1st 2 games). Marner got 11 pts, but 6 of them came in the 2 blowout games. Nylander got 7 pts. It was a 6 game series.

Against Florida, Matthews got 2 pts (0 pts last 3 games). Marner got 3 pts (0 pts in games 3 and 5). Nylander got 3 pts (1 pt in each of last 3 games).

Matthews averaged exactly 1 pt/gm in playoffs. Marner averaged 1.27 pts/gm. Nylander averaged 0.90 pts/gm. They played a total of 11 playoff games. Eichel got 26 pts in 22 games, for an average of 1.18 pts/gm.

Congrats Dekes, technically you are correct that Marner averaged more pts/gm than Eichel. However, Eichel plays the more valuable position while making basically $1 million less. So I would much rather have Eichel than Marner., especially since he is now a Stanley Cup champion.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Rantanen is the most clear cut comparable you'd get. Both were rfas at the same time, both had very similar production yet for some reason our guy got 2m more.

Marner: 0.93 P/GP, 0.90 P/GP (no EN), 0.71 P1/GP, 2.39 P/60 at 5v5 (0.55 P/GP), 1.91 P1/60 at 5v5 (0.44 P1/GP), 7.19 P/60 on the PP, 4.69 P1/60 on the PP + additional PK impacts
Rantanen: 0.87 P/GP, 0.82 P/GP (No EN), 0.64 P1/GP, 1.87 P/60 at 5v5 (0.45 P/GP), 1.31 P1/60 at 5v5 (0.32 P1/GP), 5.78 P/60 on the PP, 4.15 P1/60 on the PP

And that's without even getting into the fact that unlike Marner, Rantanen got to spend that sample with a superior player to him helping increase his production. It's pretty easy to see why our guy got 1.65m (not 2m) more.

 

[Peasy]

Marner: 0.93 P/GP, 0.90 P/GP (no EN), 0.71 P1/GP, 2.39 P/60 at 5v5 (0.55 P/GP), 1.91 P1/60 at 5v5 (0.44 P1/GP), 7.19 P/60 on the PP, 4.69 P1/60 on the PP + additional PK impacts
Rantanen: 0.87 P/GP, 0.82 P/GP (No EN), 0.64 P1/GP, 1.87 P/60 at 5v5 (0.45 P/GP), 1.31 P1/60 at 5v5 (0.32 P1/GP), 5.78 P/60 on the PP, 4.15 P1/60 on the PP

And that's without even getting into the fact that unlike Marner, Rantanen got to spend that sample with a superior player to him helping increase his production. It's pretty easy to see why our guy got 1.65m (not 2m) more.

The only reason Marner has better stats is because of Rantanen's rookie year on a godawful Avs team (highest points on the team was 53, Leafs had 6 players with more than 53 points that year). Their 2 years before their extension, Rantanen performs better lol.

Has also now had a 50+50 season, broken 100 points, and has been great come playoff time. It doesn't matter what stats I show, or what I say, Marner is the goated winger in this league to you.

IMO, Rantanen and Marner are practically the same tier. They both have better strengths than one another. I didnt see an argument for Marner to be paid nearly 2m more than him when they first signed, and I see even less of an argument now.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Eichel got 26 pts in 22 games, for an average of 1.18 pts/gm. Congrats Dekes, technically you are correct that Marner averaged more pts/gm than Eichel.

Even just going by straight production, Matthews and Marner both have multiple playoffs with a higher points per game. Marner and Nylander have another playoffs just below. And in terms of actual overall impact and not just contextless raw points, there's a bunch more that match what Eichel did. What Eichel did was not unique or special, and if he had done it here, he would have been absolutely blasted for not scoring a goal for 12 games and getting carried by his depth linemate.

The difference is that Eichel happened to be on a team that ended up winning the cup, while playing with a depth player that was excelling, in easier situations to produce, so suddenly he's praised as a playoff god.

 

[Dekes For Days]

The only reason Marner has better stats is because of Rantanen's rookie year on a godawful Avs team (highest points on the team was 53, Leafs had 6 players with more than 53 points that year). Their 2 years before their extension, Rantanen performs better lol.

You can't just remove a relevant portion of their sample because it was bad and doesn't suit your argument, and Marner was still a better player through the final 2 years.

Marner: 0.99 P/GP, 0.95 P/GP (no EN), 0.77 P1/GP, 2.47 P/60 at 5v5 (0.58 P/GP), 2.03 P1/60 at 5v5 (0.48 P1/GP), 7.34 P/60 on the PP, 4.89 P1/60 on the PP + additional PK impacts
Rantanen: 1.10 P/GP, 1.02 P/GP (No EN), 0.79 P1/GP, 2.13 P/60 at 5v5 (0.53 P/GP), 1.40 P1/60 at 5v5 (0.35 P1/GP), 6.74 P/60 on the PP, 4.95 P1/60 on the PP

Rantanen was a worse producer at 5v5, even though he had the advantage of playing with a superior player to him.
Rantanen was a worse producer on the PP, even though he had the advantage of not being on a split unit.
Rantanen didn't PK, while Marner did bring additional PK impacts.

The only reason you think Rantanen was better is because you're incorrectly giving him credit for his team's PP time he got pumped full of. But that doesn't make somebody better.

 

[Notsince67]

Against Tampa, Matthews got 9 pts, but 4 of them came in blowouts (1st 2 games). Marner got 11 pts, but 6 of them came in the 2 blowout games. Nylander got 7 pts. It was a 6 game series.

Against Florida, Matthews got 2 pts (0 pts last 3 games). Marner got 3 pts (0 pts in games 3 and 5). Nylander got 3 pts (1 pt in each of last 3 games).

Matthews averaged exactly 1 pt/gm in playoffs. Marner averaged 1.27 pts/gm. Nylander averaged 0.90 pts/gm. They played a total of 11 playoff games. Eichel got 26 pts in 22 games, for an average of 1.18 pts/gm.

Congrats Dekes, technically you are correct that Marner averaged more pts/gm than Eichel. However, Eichel plays the more valuable position while making basically $1 million less. So I would much rather have Eichel than Marner., especially since he is now a Stanley Cup champion.

So I can understand you position, could you articulate the role of the center position that you find so valiable? What is the more valuable role Eichel provides that Marner doesn't other than a faceoff exactly

 

[Captain Crunch]

The only reason Marner has better stats is because of Rantanen's rookie year on a godawful Avs team (highest points on the team was 53, Leafs had 6 players with more than 53 points that year). Their 2 years before their extension, Rantanen performs better lol.

Has also now had a 50+50 season, broken 100 points, and has been great come playoff time. It doesn't matter what stats I show, or what I say, Marner is the goated winger in this league to you.

IMO, Rantanen and Marner are practically the same tier. They both have better strengths than one another. I didnt see an argument for Marner to be paid nearly 2m more than him when they first signed, and I see even less of an argument now.

Rantanen had 26 pts in 20 games the year they won the Cup, and makes basically $1.7 million less, AND let’s not forget what McKinnon did to help the team out! But yeah, let’s pay Marner more because he’s entitled to because he’s a Leaf and Shanahan doesn’t mind overpaying his “stars who can’t produce when it matters the most! LMFAO”!

But I guess we won’t know anything until next offseason regarding Marner. IF he wants to win, he will be willing to help the team. IF he wants to be paid, he won’t. The same goes for Matthews this year.

Sorry Peasy, this reply was meant for Dekes.

 

[Captain Crunch]

Even just going by straight production, Matthews and Marner both have multiple playoffs with a higher points per game. Marner and Nylander have another playoffs just below. And in terms of actual overall impact and not just contextless raw points, there's a bunch more that match what Eichel did. What Eichel did was not unique or special, and if he had done it here, he would have been absolutely blasted for not scoring a goal for 12 games and getting carried by his depth linemate.

The difference is that Eichel happened to be on a team that ended up winning the cup, while playing with a depth player that was excelling, in easier situations to produce, so suddenly he's praised as a playoff god.

You mean he ended up on a team with an owner and GM who knew how to properly build a winning team? Yes, if that’s what you mean, then I agree! Lol

 

[Peasy]

You can't just remove a relevant portion of their sample because it was bad and doesn't suit your argument, and Marner was still a better player through the final 2 years.

Marner: 0.99 P/GP, 0.95 P/GP (no EN), 0.77 P1/GP, 2.47 P/60 at 5v5 (0.58 P/GP), 2.03 P1/60 at 5v5 (0.48 P1/GP), 7.34 P/60 on the PP, 4.89 P1/60 on the PP + additional PK impacts
Rantanen: 1.10 P/GP, 1.02 P/GP (No EN), 0.79 P1/GP, 2.13 P/60 at 5v5 (0.53 P/GP), 1.40 P1/60 at 5v5 (0.35 P1/GP), 6.74 P/60 on the PP, 4.95 P1/60 on the PP

Rantanen was a worse producer at 5v5, even though he had the advantage of playing with a superior player to him.
Rantanen was a worse producer on the PP, even though he had the advantage of not being on a split unit.
Rantanen didn't PK, while Marner did bring additional PK impacts.

The only reason you think Rantanen was better is because you're incorrectly giving him credit for his team's PP time he got pumped full of. But that doesn't make somebody better.

I'm not claiming one is better than the other, you are. I am saying they are the same tier of players but one is getting paid a decent amount more than the other.

 

[Dekes For Days]

You mean he ended up on a team with an owner and GM who knew how to properly build a winning team?

Yeah, they just had to execute their master plan of injure their players at convenient times in order to circumvent the cap to gain a massive advantage over everybody else, and then ride a career backup/3rd stringer and a depth player exploding to a 50 goal pace to a cup. All the owner and GM's master plan.

I'm not claiming one is better than the other, you are. I am saying they are the same tier of players but one is getting paid a decent amount more than the other.

One was factually better than the other. Better producer at 5v5 and on the PP, despite more difficult situations to produce, while bringing additional PK impacts.
Rantanen being on Marner's level was a mirage caused by an unwillingness to consider anything other than raw points over a shortened sample, including how those raw points came to be. A 1.65m gap between them was more than justified.

 

[Captain Crunch]

So I can understand you position, could you articulate the role of the center position that you find so valiable? What is the more valuable role Eichel provides that Marner doesn't other than a faceoff exactly

Rightly or wrongly, you tell me who gets paid more, a #1 center or a #1 winger? And I’m not 100% anti-Marner. I believe both he and Matthews looked out for themselves and never thought for a second about taking any kind of hometown discount, as did Tavares. And yes, that’s their right. And maybe this time around, they may change their tune, although highly unlikely! This is not on Dubas, this is all on Shanahan and the board, who seem star struck on these two (yes, that’s just my opinion), and will give them whatever they want.

Also, I was replying to Dekes, who thinks that our stars, especially Marner, are more talented and worth more than Eichel. And I was pointing out they’re not, especially when Eichel is making basically $1 million less. And yes again, that’s his opinion vs mine.

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

I don't hate what Marner is making. I just think he should have been on a bridge deal, which would have given us 3 very flexible years. That 3-4m savings would have been a huge difference maker.

Matthews deal only being 5 years is the bigger problem imo. Giving them all NMC at the end is just...caving.

 

[ACC1224]

I don't hate what Marner is making. I just think he should have been on a bridge deal, which would have given us 3 very flexible years. That 3-4m savings would have been a huge difference maker.

Matthews deal only being 5 years is the bigger problem imo. Giving them all NMC at the end is just...caving.

Had Dubas taken Marners initial offer of 8.5 over 8 it would be viewed as one of the best deals in the league.
As became the norm, the smartest guy in the room out smarted himself.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Had Dubas taken Marners initial offer of 8.5 over 8 it would be viewed as one of the best deals in the league.

You unfortunately can't take offers that never existed in the first place.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Today I’ll devote going through all the playoff threads, Marner threads and Tavares threads to find all your posts criticizing those two about lack of production, assists vs goal scoring and quote them here.

It didn’t handicap anything, we still had a ton of cap space, in a few I’ll go comb through all our UFA signings the summer we traded Kadri, I already posted that we signed Cody Ceci for 4.5 million. Pretty sure he wasn’t the only guy we signed that year. Dubas’ inability to surround the core comes down to philosophy and style of players he believed in not a lack or cap resource.

I hadn't realized we signed Cody Ceci as a 3C.

Glad I can help you kill time.

 

[Captain Crunch]

Yeah, they just had to execute their master plan of injure their players at convenient times in order to circumvent the cap to gain a massive advantage over everybody else, and then ride a career backup/3rd stringer and a depth player exploding to a 50 goal pace to a cup. All the owner and GM's master plan.

One was factually better than the other. Better producer at 5v5 and on the PP, despite more difficult situations to produce, while bringing additional PK impacts.
Rantanen being on Marner's level was a mirage caused by an unwillingness to consider anything other than raw points over a shortened sample, including how those raw points came to be. A 1.65m gap between them was more than justified.

So they have an owner and GM who know how to circumvent the cap, just like Tampa did. As far as goalies, look at what Dubas, but mainly Shanny, did to acquire a goalie. Not a hell of a lot, especially when they acquired “I can’t stay healthy” Murray! And it appears that no matter which goalie the other team has when the Leafs play them in the playoffs, they stil get outgoalied (5 straight years!). That’s says something about our 2 mega stars. They want to be paid, but can’t get this team over the hump! And don’t keep harping about our supporting cast being the culprits. That gets so old! Maybe if the two prima donnas gave a rat’s ass about helping the team out, we could have a proper supporting cast! We will see with their next contracts.

And no one can argue their regular season stats, it’s what they do come playoff time when push comes to shove, ie, when it matters the most! Please show me their stats over the last 5 playoffs in series deciding games. Its not bad, but therein lies the problem, if they need better support, ther has to be enough cap room to do it. And yes, no one could have predicted the effect Covid had on the cap, but yet the Leafs kept losing in the 1st round.

It’s only my opinion, but MLSE has screwed up royally in how to build a winning team (not just the regular season, but playoffs as well). I do not expect much to change while this continues. I would be so happy if I was proven wrong. I bleed blue and white, and I want to see them win!

 

[francis246]

I hadn't realized we signed Cody Ceci as a 3C.

Glad I can help you kill time.

Ceci wasn’t a 3C but he was a waste of cap dollars. You keep saying Tavares limited this and that. I don’t see how Tavares’ contract influenced Dubas to overpay for a 3rd pairing D?

My point is we still had a good amount of money left even after the Tavares signing. Dubas made bad decisions on his own because he thought he was being innovative. Not because he was limited by the Tavares contract.

I don't hate what Marner is making. I just think he should have been on a bridge deal, which would have given us 3 very flexible years. That 3-4m savings would have been a huge difference maker.

Matthews deal only being 5 years is the bigger problem imo. Giving them all NMC at the end is just...caving.

Agreed. They should have convinced him to take a bridge. I’m sure they tried but it should have been sign the bridge or don’t play. Simple.