Poll: If you had to decide now: Would you extend Kyle Dubas or let him walk ?

[Thornbury]

How is the playoff format screwing him over?? It hasn't changed. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's screwing anybody over.

The playoff format screws all the top teams in the east. The west is a wasteland.

 

[Divine]

How is the playoff format screwing him over?? It hasn't changed. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's screwing anybody over.

Not necessarily the playoff format, just really unlucky matchups.

Basically, almost every year the Leafs had to play the Eastern Conference champs in the first round. It’s crazy. Even when they lost to Montreal, they swept the West 8-2 and go to the finals.

The only easy matchup they had was a Columbus team on the year Babcock was fired, which was a Leafs team fighting for the 8th seed and arguably the worst Leafs team in the whole tenure.

 

[ToneDog]

Even with 1-8 playoff format we still get Tampa (now) or the 2nd or 3rd seed from the Metro. Tampa may no longer be the team they have been so let's stop using format as an excuse. If they lose to Tampa again, it is on them.

 

[Divine]

Even with 1-8 playoff format we still get Tampa (now) or the 2nd or 3rd seed from the Metro. Tampa may no longer be the team they have been so let's stop using format as an excuse. If they lose to Tampa again, it is on them.

Yeah, but people said the same last year.

Then Tampa went 8-2 straight to the finals.

Yes, people love to point out that temporarily it’s Leafs vs Tampa, but within 2 points over 20 games it could be a completely different matchup.

That said, I want to beat Tampa after that bs high sticking call last year where we should have beat them in 6.

For me, the playoff format is bad because teams know who they’re playing already and the last 50 games of the regular season mean nothing. What are we even watching for? To see if we get home ice?

It’s actually exciting visualizing different matchups for fans.

 

[ToneDog]

Yeah, but people said the same last year.

Then Tampa went 8-2 straight to the finals.

Yes, people love to point out that temporarily it’s Leafs vs Tampa, but within 2 points over 20 games it could be a completely different matchup.

That said, I want to beat Tampa after that bs high sticking call last year where we should have beat them in 6.

For me, the playoff format is bad because teams know who they’re playing already and the last 50 games of the regular season mean nothing. What are we even watching for? To see if we get home ice?

It’s actually exciting visualizing different matchups for fans.

This. 1-8 we could get NYR, NJ, or Tampa so there would be more interest, but Gary prefers rivalries.

 

[Twine Tickler]

I agree completely, especially with the bolded. I've said it many times, using hindsight to judge trades is the cowards way out. Judge Dubas on how you think he did on the day of the trade, not years down the line. He can't tell the future any more than anyone else can, all he can do is make the best decision he can make with the information that he as at that moment in time. If you like the trade now, that's fine and if you don't, that's fine too. But saying years later that the trade was bad because we didn't win anything (like someone said about the Muzzin trade the other day) is complete BS.

I loved the Muzzin trade the day it happened and knowing that we'd be better off today had we kept the futures instead doesn't change my opinion one bit. Same goes for the trade today, IMO it was a fantastic move no matter what happens going forward.

100%

This has been a running theme for the last couple seasons unfortunately. Kyle has assembled teams that should be worthy of truly contending, and he's added at the deadline each of those years. In my opinion the playoff failures are not on him. At some point this core has to step up and return their end of the bargain and repay Kyle for his consistent vote of confidence in them.

The only legitimate argument I can understand putting blame on Kyle would be that loyalty and confidence he has shown in this core. But that being said, the 2 most maligned members of that core have been Mitch and WIlly. Both of whom Kyle has received immense pressure to deal at some point in his tenure. Well we all know how that works out....Mitch is arguably our best player on our roster and most valuable to our team success. He plays all situations at an elite level and makes everyone around him better. Meanwhile, Willy has evolved his game to a level we all knew he was capable of, but many doubted would ever happen. So in my opinion, Kyle's loyalty to this core has proven to be the right call. We have the right guys, we just need them to step up and play the way they are capable of.

At the end of the day, I have more confidence in Kyle to fix whatever mess we may end up having over any other prospective GM available. He is an incredible GM

 

[Gary Nylund]

I would have been dead set against you - I’d get rid of Matty before Marner …

But who besides Dubas? There are dozens of excellent qualified individuals with smarts and experience. Dubas got to have his sharp ‘learning curve’ with a top original 6 franchise, and it was the wrong move to begin with to go with him over Hunter (or Lou). Smart guy and he’s going to be successful in hockey management don’t get me wrong; but don’t start off the green GM with the Leafs

I didn't say get rid of anyone, I was just thinking that after losing to MTL I was ready to consider major trades and nobody was untouchable. Marner had had a couple of poor playoffs so he wjust as the obvious choice for me but I would have been fine with seeing what we could for Matthews or anyone else as well. But I was trading neither of them for the sake of a shakeup and I said so at the time - it would have taken a kings ransom for me to part with Marner and considering players like Marner almost never are available, we may have gotten some very tempting offers for him (or Matthews).

I would also say that I was disappointed that we basically "ran it back" after the MTL debacle and so was just about everyone else IIRC. That said, his body of work since then has been quite impressive and as the poster above pointed out Nylander and Marner have showed massive improvement , right now it looks like rolling it back was the smart move. Gotta admire that, it takes balls to bring the gang all back after a loss like that, the easiest thing to do would have been to shake things up, nobody would have had a problem with that. Dubas seems to ignore the noise, and do what he thinks is best for the team, gotta respect that!

Maybe there are "dozens" of good candidates, maybe not. All I know is for the last 50 years, our GM's have mostly sucked. For me Dubas is the best we've had and Quinn and Fletcher were the only ones that weren't terrible. I'm fine with replacing Dubas, I just hope that if we do his replacement is someone who is indeed smart and qualified and does a good job, unlike most of the losers who have the job in previous decades.

Well, yeah, on the Gillick front, but a major skill in being a sports manager is identifying trades that are equal, but that you believe you'll win, and you do win.

I'm not exactly against trading Kadri. But, to trade him for a redundant player like Barrie didn't make much sense to me. Yes, he filled the RHD we needed, but he brought none of the traits we needed outside of being a RHD. We had an elite PP the year before, and he's a questionable 5v5 player who needs soft usage. But, the Kadri move was pretty much made to have to happen at some point because of the Matthews/JT deals which stretched our cap space thin, whereas Kadri was an efficient asset at a 2nd line center, but over paid by the deployment he was going to get with us. Which means was it better to keep Kadri at that price, and stay out of the JT sweepstakes and pursue a slightly slowed build with our core. We also are unlikely to be forced into a position where we have to use a 1st to dump Marleau.

Look, at the end of the day it's on everyone in the organization. But, we as outsiders don't get the full details of why and what happens. If, it's on the players, failing to perform then I feel that is something management should be able to recognize and re-shift strategies. As for Masai, later draft picks become impact players much quicker in the NBA, but Siakam and FVV being chosen where we got them were massive parts of that, and Leaf's haven't had a later pick of that quality since probably Kaberle.

Dubas has essentially made his all-in bets with this current team. Outside of Knies, and a 2025 first, we have limited to assets to make a big move without moving one of our big guys, who all outside of Nylander have full NTC's kicking in or have kicked in. I hope people here's faith in him is rewarded with a cup, or atleast something better than a first round exit. But, due to multiple choices he has made or agreed to if this team fails this year, we are facing massive decisions going forward on how to re-shape the team going forward with Matthews and Nylander being able to play their way to UFA (although Nylander can be traded with limited control). The Tavares and Matthews (and to a lesser extent Marner) deals which Dubas signed put us on this timetable. It's not just wins and losses, it's the choices that really put us here where we really have to go in and trade massive futures due to contract situations while Matthews and Marner are still 25. Maybe they have a deal with Matthews locked up going forward, maybe it's time if we fail this year we seriously explore a future without him if he's not 100% in on July 1st when he's eligible to re-sign.

I think we've covered Gillick. I can't think of one hockey trade with 4 players in their primes that good moving in one trade, not in the last 50 years anyway. Closest I can think of is the Esposito trade that shocked the world but that was 3 all-stars, not 4 and they we're all past their prime. The best comparable I can think of is M&M for McKinnon&Rantanen and trades like never happen in the NHL. Overall I like the trades Dubas has made. There are no home runs like the Alomar trade but not sure if any GM's have a trade like that to their credit.

I think the Kadri move also had to happen after the suspensions, we were also unlucky that Kadri vetoed the trade for Brodie but WE, that's been done to death and with the benefit of hindsight we'd have been better off doing almost anything other than what we did do. We haven't won anything, therefore I suppose you could argue that every move we've made is wrong. At the time though, IMO moving Kadri made sense (even though Barrie didn't work out), so did signing JT and I'll say it again, the timing of covid was absolutely brutal for us, had that not happened things might have worked out much differently.

Dubas has bet on this team, nothing wrong with that. And if he loses the bet and is replaced, I'm fine with that too as long as the next guy is chosen wisely. I'd also be fine with keeping him though as despite trading away all those picks, we're still well positioned for the future. Going into the playoffs we also have the best Leaf team I've ever seen on paper and other than ROR, all the major players are under contract for next year when Boston will finally be in that long awaited cap hell. There are tough decisions ahead, no doubt about it, let's hope that whoever's in charge deals with the situation wisely.

Anyhow, I appreciate your thoughts, nice to have a discussion without insulting nonsense for a change. I haven't noticed you posting much lately but you're one of the good ones IMO, whenever I notice you posting I'm always interested in what you have to say.

 

[Dekes For Days]

think about how many first round game 7 losses have come at the hands of cup winners or finalists. It’s insane.

Our opponents in all 4 years under Dubas only lost to the Stanley Cup Champion that year. 3 of the 4 went to the Cup finals. Pretty crazy.
And we took every single one to the limit through some pretty unfavourable situations.

 

[ALine]

Someone please give me a name of who you'd replace him with. Anyone please

Suspiciously, other than Dubas, only AA, Gillick and Masai have been the only other professional League GM’s mention in this thread.

I would have been dead set against you - I’d get rid of Matty before Marner …

But who besides Dubas? There are dozens of excellent qualified individuals with smarts and experience. Dubas got to have his sharp ‘learning curve’ with a top original 6 franchise, and it was the wrong move to begin with to go with him over Hunter (or Lou). Smart guy and he’s going to be successful in hockey management don’t get me wrong; but don’t start off the green GM with the Leafs

“Dozens of excellent qualified individuals”
Who are these individuals, exactly?
‘Dozens’ by your definition would denote atleast 24+?
Can you name 6 atleast ? I’d bet it’s hard to do after excluding anyone that might require any sort of ‘learning curve’.
I’m having the same conundrum as TMLife17, the presumption of there being wildly better candidates out there for Leafs GM but nobody can even put a name out there, let alone ‘dozens’

In the old Babcock threads I’ve read, nobody had any problems putting atleast a few names out there that they thought would be a quality coaching change candidate. Names you could go, “oh ok I see why you would mention them”. But for GM, nothing.
When it comes to GM, there are many in this thread that are against a Dubas extension. Against what he has done, and against him even being named GM in the first place, but give zero rationale on what they would have liked to see and who it could have been or will be to accomplish that.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Suspiciously, other than Dubas, only AA, Gillick and Masai have been the only other professional League GM’s mention in this thread.

“Dozens of excellent qualified individuals”
Who are these individuals, exactly?
‘Dozens’ by your definition would denote atleast 24+?
Can you name 6 atleast ? I’d bet it’s hard to do after excluding anyone that might require any sort of ‘learning curve’.
I’m having the same conundrum as TMLife17, the presumption of there being wildly better candidates out there for Leafs GM but nobody can even put a name out there, let alone ‘dozens’

In the old Babcock threads I’ve read, nobody had any problems putting atleast a few names out there that they thought would be a quality coaching change candidate. Names you could go, “oh ok I see why you would mention them”. But for GM, nothing.
When it comes to GM, there are many in this thread that are against a Dubas extension. Against what he has done, and against him even being named GM in the first place, but give zero rationale on what they would have liked to see and who it could have been or will be to accomplish that.

+1 Like.

 

[MLSE]

I hate that the result of the end of the season matters if he stays or goes. I totally get why though.

Personally, I like the moves he was doing and believe the cap not moving really put a wrench in his plans for our depth.

He had to trade a way a bunch of picks now to fix that and win this year. Hopefully it works out but personally I think he is a smart GM.

 

[Lemontree]

All I ask is that he doesn't get attached to guys like Holl and Kerfoot.

It’s a little late for that, neither one of the players should have survived the previous offseason. The fact that both of them are still here shows that Dubas has no idea what player fit and roster construction means.

 

[nuck]

Strange time to ask this since the goalie question is as much up in the air as it was at the beginning of the season. If they take an early dump in the playoffs because of shakey or injured goaltending the GM wears that. Clubs are unlikely to reward management for a cool trade deadline if they just get stomped again in the first round. What you are really asking is, do we love Kyles recent moves so much we don't really care whether they will work out or not? I do like his TDL this year though.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

I think he has been extended already as an MLSE employee .. da question is does he stay GM or does he move above to a new role as executive VP ?

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

As much as the match up part is rough, my bigger concern is that it can render regular season meaningless. You can finish 5th in the entire league and never get a single home series advantage. Stats bear out that it matters. If you finish that well, you should at least get that advantage once. Why slug it out for 82 games for zero reward? So 11 and 14 can square off and 11 gets home ice?

 

[IPS]

Our opponents in all 4 years under Dubas only lost to the Stanley Cup Champion that year. 3 of the 4 went to the Cup finals. Pretty crazy.
And we took every single one to the limit through some pretty unfavourable situations.

Most impressive losers in the league hands down!

 

[fahad203]

Extend this man. I like this crazy Dubas

 

[ErnieLeafs]

Dubas dropping his nuts on this thread

 

[All Mod Cons]

He's already been extended imo.

After changing his outlook to match mine, I'd extend him again.

 

[SmoggyTwinkles]

He's young, he's made some mistakes, he's getting more experience, he's now taken up cocaine and crushing red bulls like a mad man.

He'll also land another job immediately, and who's better? Is Kyle Dubas cursed? No, the Leafs are cursed. It's not his fault. Let him keep doing his thing.

"but you can't fire the whole team" is probably why, if we go out first round, it probably is Dubas' and Keefe's heads. That's just the way it goes.

Extend this man. I like this crazy Dubas

 

[Marmoset]

I voted 'let him walk' for the purpose of the poll but I wouldn't actually choose either option right now. I would let the season play out and see what happens. He is still a GM who inherited an unusually great situation for a new NHL GM but has yet to advance past the first round - until he isn't.

The moves he is making are very similar to what we saw from Alex Anthopolous with the Blue Jays. I think an equivalent result (ALCS roughly equal to the ECF) would be enough to convince me to keep going with Dubas.

One thing I said about AA and will say about Dubas - it's not "hard" to trade a bunch of picks/prospects (can't trade picks in MLB) when you are desperate. He definitely deserves credit for making good deals and I think more of these are good than bad, but it doesn't take a special talent to fire off your picks. That doesn't make you some kind of great GM on its own.

What will make or break him is whether or not he traded the picks for the right guys, and as others have pointed out, whether the goaltending holds up. Of course if the big 4 decide to take a nap in the playoffs nothing else matters, but I would be very surprised if that happens.

 

[Tak7]

The blueline Dubas inherited:

Rielly
Hainsey
Gardiner
Zaitsev
Dermott
Polak
Carrick

It has now become:

Rielly
Brodie
McCabe
Liljegren
Giordano
Holl
Timmins
Muzzin
Schenn


...and it could potentially get better over the next 72 hours.

 

[Leafshater67]

I’d extend him but I’d also bring someone else in for contract talks. He fumbled the Matthews, Marner and Tavares contracts badly and I don’t want to see that happen again. He has less balls in his court too as they’re RFA’s.

 

[ACC1224]

I’d extend him but I’d also bring someone else in for contract talks. He fumbled the Matthews, Marner and Tavares contracts badly and I don’t want to see that happen again. He has less balls in his court too as they’re RFA’s.

Oh no, now you've done it.
Prepare for the D.D.L onslaught.

 

[TakeTheBody]

Overall I like Dubas. Theses trades at the deadline lead me to believe he's finally realized post season is not played like the regular season. I believe in the past his deadlines moves have almost been what he felt scripted to do. Now in the last year of his contract and signing Matthews a MUST this summer. He's trading with urgency we've never seen before. Some of this is because the Leafs have been different this season. winning and confident in low scoring games. Previous playoff first round exits have shamed this team into being better. His job is on the line. When he deals with Matthews this summer he will hope Matthews sees these changes and wants to stay. If this is the Dubas of the future, I'm on board.