Poll: If you had to decide now: Would you extend Kyle Dubas or let him walk ?

[kb]

how did you get an x ray of my brain! thats some impressive stuff right there KB lol

Hahahahahha!!

So giddy today that not even the people trying to make the Leafs moves and team into a negative are in ruins.

 

[saffronleaf]

I voted to extend him.

he hasn't "won" all of his transactions, whether it's trades (e.g. kadri deal) or contracts (e.g. matthews deal probably a year short for that AAV).

but I think it's important to judge his decisions based on the information available at the time he made them. quite often I find myself agreeing with his rational and process.

he's a really good GM. smart, transparent, kind, and continuing to evolve and grow.

 

[Cleetus]

I dunno this thread is pretty Dicey like not sure why we cant just enjoy the ride, the best part of hockey season us upon us, Im not a Dubas lover, but you have to admit he built a team that may just do something special in April and may continue through June, the truth of the matter is, 10 days after the playoffs begin there will be some good teams that are going home... its just the reality of things

 

[Funk21]

If Dubas can get AM and Nylander to agree to reasonable contracts then I would extend him and let him see this through. If both want to test free agency then you hire somebody new and tear it down.

Those reasonable contracts are about 9-9.5 for Nylander and sub 13 for AM.

 

[hotpaws]

I didn’t say he added those pieces. You’re really struggling. Maybe go outside and get some air. Calm down. Come back and lurk for awhile

i guess i was mistaken believing you meant he assembled the team when you you said ''he put together the best team we've had in 20 yrs and a top 3 team in 40 yrs''

 

[Gary Nylund]

Cliff Fletcher and Pat Quinn both had better times as Leaf's GMs within the past 35 years. I'd also add, most of the success for Dubas was built under Lou with the Matthews and Marner picks, while inheriting Rielly, Kadri, and Nylander from Burke/Nonis. No other Leaf GM has walked into as good a position to start their tenure as Leaf's GM. He inherited a playoff team with 2 franchise players, and some other high-end pieces under 25 (Rielly, and Nylander).

Dubas has always been a divide around here and the boards in general. Some give him way more praise than he deserves, others will never give him the benefit of the doubt. It's like that with GM's or managment in general, but with Dubas it tends to be extreme, and often driven by some divide between fans who want to go all in on analytics and those who want a team of Wendel Clark's.

And, if the players fail again, I don't think Dubas has done his job. Look at Masai, he saw he was never gonna improve his team's ceiling with Derozan/Lowry as the foundation and shook things up and took a gamble for the ages. Pat Gillick traded Fred McGriff, and a beloved player in Tony Fernandez for Alomar and Carter, while also replacing a high-quality manager because the Jays couldn't take that next step. Both were rewarded for boldness, even while trying lynchpin's to the team by winning it all. He's a GM, he's in charge of the overall roster, if the players/coach can't do it, than that's on him at the end of the day. Outside of guys with NTC's (and the only guys on the team currently with NTC's are ones he's given in deals), he can adjust his chess pieces as he sees fit.

So again, you're saying IF the players fail then Dubas hasn't done his job which again I assume means that if the players succeed, then Dubas has done his job. I've already said what my opinion is on that so I'll just leave it at that.

Masai made a great trade but it wasn't really a gamble since the Raptors had no shot at winning with Derozan/Lowry as their best players and if anything, you could say that what Dubas just did is similar to what Masai did. On a smaller scale but still, he traded away some futures for the rental ROR so if you like what Masai did, I'd think you'd give Dubas props for doing what he did no? Oh that's right, you're waiting to see the results first. The Raptors were down 2-0 against MIL and IIRC in game 3 they were down by 10 points or even more in the 4th so they could have easily lost, and then according to you it would have been a bad trade right? It's a fine line between winning and losing sometimes, not just the Bucks series but the Raptors against PHI was decided by millimetres and if Durant doesn't get injured again they probably lose to GS. The Leafs have gone to game 7 5 times in a row so it's hard to argue that they weren't far away from victory in each of those series that could all have gone either way and it's not inconceivable that if we ran it over again a dozen times, there would be several outcomes where Dubas is the genius and Masai is raked over the goals by the fans in the peanut gallery.

Gillick is the greatest Toronto GM during my lifetime but you know, even without that trade the Jays could have won anyway. It was a classic baseball trade involving 4 great players, 2 of them HOFers (one going each way) so it's not like it was some lopsided trade. If the Leafs traded M&M for McKinnon&Rantanen, that would be vaguely similar and when 4 great players like that are traded for each other, it's hard to say who won. But in the NHL it's difficult with the cap to make any such deals and trades like that basically never happen so I don't see how anyone can blame Dubas for not pulling the trigger on this sort of video game move.

JMHO.

 

[ErnieLeafs]

i guess i was mistaken believing you meant he assembled the team when you you said ''he put together the best team we've had in 20 yrs and a top 3 team in 40 yrs''

If he assembled a team the way you assemble rational thought, I’d be as gung-ho for firing him as you are.

No point in replying. You’re as big of a clown now as you always have been. Like I and most others have for years, I’ll just go back to ignoring your garbage.

 

[hotpaws]

If he assembled a team the way you assemble rational thought, I’d be as gung-ho for firing him as you are.

No point in replying. You’re as big of a clown now as you always have been. Like I and most others have for years, I’ll just go back to ignoring your garbage.

yeah i remember how big a clown i was when i said Burke was leading us down a path to no where trying to build around Kessel/Phaneuf and you others called me a clueless clown and flamed me for not believing in Burke's vision

those were the good old days . lol

 

[JKG33]

You’re attributing things you’ve heard somewhere else, from other posters, to me, for most of that rant. The teams he’s assembled have been really good for all of those years, yes. I said that, and I stand by it, because it’s objectively true.

Ovechkin/Backstrom/Carlsson were also guys who couldn’t win, until they did. So were MacKinnon an Co., and so is everyone else, until they do.

I’m certainly not here to absolve anyone of the weight of failure, but I’m also not here to heap it on in a hyperbolic way like some here are.


Better to keep the idiocy in your head, than let us all see it on full display

You know what's hyperbolic? A team making the playoffs 6 years in a row and losing every single 1st round. Yet that actually happened. They couldn't even win a play-in round. I never wanted Dubas hired to begin with, but even I never thought it'd turn out this poorly. I thought at one point they'd at least have 1 round won, or that Dubas would've been put out to pasture before it got to this point.

It's funny you bring up the Caps and Avs, because they both showed progress. They managed to win rounds before their cups. Hell, even playoff chokers like the Sharks and Preds went to the finals. Dubas can't even manage the success of those noted failures.

Even if they win a round this year it doesn't matter. Dubas has cleaned the cupboard out nearly like Tampa, a Stanley Cup champion. With Matthews nearing another payday, it's cup or bust territory now.

 

[ErnieLeafs]

You know what's hyperbolic? A team making the playoffs 6 years in a row and losing every single 1st round. Yet that actually happened. They couldn't even win a play-in round. I never wanted Dubas hired to begin with, but even I never thought it'd turn out this poorly. I thought at one point they'd at least have 1 round won, or that Dubas would've been put out to pasture before it got to this point.

It's funny you bring up the Caps and Avs, because they both showed progress. They managed to win rounds before their cups. Hell, even playoff chokers like the Sharks and Preds went to the finals. Dubas can't even manage the success of those noted failures.

Even if they win a round this year it doesn't matter. Dubas has cleaned the cupboard out nearly like Tampa, a Stanley Cup champion. With Matthews nearing another payday, it's cup or bust territory now.

Okay

 

[Clark4Ever]

I give Dubas tremendous credit for what he's done leading up to the trade deadline. My only concern is goaltending. If Samsonov gets injured, it could be a big problem with Murray's durability issues.

Overall though, I would extend Dubas if I had to make that decision now.

 

[ErnieLeafs]

I give Dubas tremendous credit for what he's done leading up to the trade deadline. My only concern is goaltending. If Samsonov gets injured, it could be a big problem with Murray's durability issues.

Overall though, I would extend Dubas if I had to make that decision now.

When you have a team this good, and you’re at a crossroads of sorts, you owe it to them to give them every benefit to try and go deep.

It is this way in every sport. Invest in what’s worth investing in. He did that.

 

[kb]

“I know you are but what am I!?!”

I expected no less from someone who could barely take the crayons out of his mouth to post on a message board

 

[JKG33]

When you have a team this good, and you’re at a crossroads of sorts, you owe it to them to give them every benefit to try and go deep.

It is this way in every sport. Invest in what’s worth investing in. He did that.

Wait.. what benefit are they owed? If as you say it's on the players and not Dubas' fault, why would he owe them anything?

 

[kb]

I dunno this thread is pretty Dicey like not sure why we cant just enjoy the ride, the best part of hockey season us upon us, Im not a Dubas lover, but you have to admit he built a team that may just do something special in April and may continue through June, the truth of the matter is, 10 days after the playoffs begin there will be some good teams that are going home... its just the reality of things

This is very well put.

It's about time to focus on the team and the players, and forget about the GM. The GM gives the coach the players, so now it's up to the coaches and players.

Let's enjoy the fact that the Leafs are even in this position to contend. There have been soooo many down decades. lol

 

[ErnieLeafs]

Wait.. what benefit are they owed? If as you say it's on the players and not Dubas' fault, why would he owe them anything?

I thought we established that I have no interest in getting bogged down in your intellectually disingenuous garbage….

If it hadn’t been, let it be now.

 

[93LEAFS]

So again, you're saying IF the players fail then Dubas hasn't done his job which again I assume means that if the players succeed, then Dubas has done his job. I've already said what my opinion is on that so I'll just leave it at that.

Masai made a great trade but it wasn't really a gamble since the Raptors had no shot at winning with Derozan/Lowry as their best players and if anything, you could say that what Dubas just did is similar to what Masai did. On a smaller scale but still, he traded away some futures for the rental ROR so if you like what Masai did, I'd think you'd give Dubas props for doing what he did no? Oh that's right, you're waiting to see the results first. The Raptors were down 2-0 against MIL and IIRC in game 3 they were down by 10 points or even more in the 4th so they could have easily lost, and then according to you it would have been a bad trade right? It's a fine line between winning and losing sometimes, not just the Bucks series but the Raptors against PHI was decided by millimetres and if Durant doesn't get injured again they probably lose to GS. The Leafs have gone to game 7 5 times in a row so it's hard to argue that they weren't far away from victory in each of those series that could all have gone either way and it's not inconceivable that if we ran it over again a dozen times, there would be several outcomes where Dubas is the genius and Masai is raked over the goals by the fans in the peanut gallery.

Gillick is the greatest Toronto GM during my lifetime but you know, even without that trade the Jays could have won anyway. It was a classic baseball trade involving 4 great players, 2 of them HOFers (one going each way) so it's not like it was some lopsided trade. If the Leafs traded M&M for McKinnon&Rantanen, that would be vaguely similar and when 4 great players like that are traded for each other, it's hard to say who won. But in the NHL it's difficult with the cap to make any such deals and trades like that basically never happen so I don't see how anyone can blame Dubas for not pulling the trigger on this sort of video game move.

JMHO.

In two of those series we were heavy favorites and lost to Montreal and Columbus, its not like we only lose to powerhouse teams. And, then you'd have to win 3 other series on top of that. The hall of famer we got was younger and was quickly inducted into the hall of fame in the Jays case, McGriff just got in after years of waiting. Alomar was the younger and clearly better player by any metric comparing the two.

I'm not just waiting on results. I'm looking at the results so far. He inherited the team with one of the most promising young cores in the league. We lost in the first rounds two years before he got the gig, and we've lost in every first round since (well, play-in in the Columbus case). If we lost in game 7 of a cup final that is one thing, we've lost in the 1st round in game 7 or game 5. If it's on the players, its on the players he's chosen to build around.

These are the players Dubas's gave big deals, NMC's, traded Kadri for Barrie and Kerfoot to create space for their salaries on top of signing JT. This team is the players he's chose to work with, the coach he chose, pretty much every player on the roster he either re-signed at their current salaries, traded for, signed as a UFA or drafted, he chose his coach. My point is, in terms of actual success we haven't accomplished anything we hadn't prior to him arriving. We can say it's a tough league, a tough division, but even when the door opens for a great shot like Montreal in 2021, we still couldn't take the easiest path to the Cup finals in my lifetime. The closest Dubas has come to a re-defining core trade was Kadri for Kerfoot/Barrie, and that one blew up in our faces, not adding rentals. I don't see how we can say he isn't responsible for how the team performs at this point. Every championship requires some luck, but, 1st round exits going another way doesn't really inspire hope that you'd run the table in the next 3. Masai revamped a core that was at least in Eastern Conference championship games continually.

Given the assets we've given up in regards to making future deadline moves with these trades, Matthews and Nylander's contracts entering the last year after this season. It's put up or shut up time. Either he's built a team that can live up to expectations or he hasn't. So far, in the previous 4 years they haven't. No one would say his performance was adequate if you told them that when he replaced Lou, we still wouldn't have advanced a round.

 

[RunItBackAgain]

Lock him up for the 8x8 while you can!!!

 

[JKG33]

“I know you are but what am I!?!”

I expected no less from someone who could barely take the crayons out of his mouth to post on a message board

It's pretty telling of the quality of your argument when you feel the need to resort to childish name calling and insults.

But then again, I shouldn't expect anything less from the Dubas fan club

 

[ronzigato]

This is my 30th anniversary season of following the Leafs. We've had maybe two or three teams that have been as good as this one relative to the league over that time. I'm not sure we've ever had the talent pipeline that we have now. It's not all Dubas, but he's an important cog in the machine. Extend the man.

 

[kb]

It's pretty telling of the quality of your argument when you feel the need to resort to childish name calling and insults.

But then again, I shouldn't expect anything less from the Dubas fan club

Nor should we expect anything better from tr*lls from the Kings board posing as a Leaf fan without ever complimenting them in any way, amirite??

Don't even have to be a fan of his. Only have to have a functional capacity to think.

 

[JKG33]

Nor should we expect anything better from tr*lls from another board, amirite??

Dude you've been banging this drum for as long as I can remember here and it just ain't true. Been a Leafs fan my whole life, and somehow this era is the most embarrassing, in part because I get associated with homers like you

 

[conFABulator]

I give Dubas tremendous credit for what he's done leading up to the trade deadline. My only concern is goaltending. If Samsonov gets injured, it could be a big problem with Murray's durability issues.

Overall though, I would extend Dubas if I had to make that decision now.

That's fair. I think he did the best he could this off-season on the goalie front. Of the teams that changed goalies, only Colorado and Minnesota seem to have had better goaltending than us this year, while many are much worse than us.

Our goalies are wildcards, but we have two of them. They could perform in the playoffs, but if not that will be the blemish on Dubas' record.

I still vote to keep him.

 

[Gary Nylund]

In two of those series we were heavy favorites and lost to Montreal and Columbus, its not like we only lose to powerhouse teams. And, then you'd have to win 3 other series on top of that. The hall of famer we got was younger and was quickly inducted into the hall of fame in the Jays case, McGriff just got in after years of waiting. Alomar was the younger and clearly better player by any metric comparing the two.

I'm not just waiting on results. I'm looking at the results so far. He inherited the team with one of the most promising young cores in the league. We lost in the first rounds two years before he got the gig, and we've lost in every first round since (well, play-in in the Columbus case). If we lost in game 7 of a cup final that is one thing, we've lost in the 1st round in game 7 or game 5. If it's on the players, its on the players he's chosen to build around.

These are the players Dubas's gave big deals, NMC's, traded Kadri for Barrie and Kerfoot to create space for their salaries on top of signing JT. This team is the players he's chose to work with, the coach he chose, pretty much every player on the roster he either re-signed at their current salaries, traded for, signed as a UFA or drafted, he chose his coach. My point is, in terms of actual success we haven't accomplished anything we hadn't prior to him arriving. We can say it's a tough league, a tough division, but even when the door opens for a great shot like Montreal in 2021, we still couldn't take the easiest path to the Cup finals in my lifetime. The closest Dubas has come to a re-defining core trade was Kadri for Kerfoot/Barrie, and that one blew up in our faces, not adding rentals. I don't see how we can say he isn't responsible for how the team performs at this point. Every championship requires some luck, but, 1st round exits going another way doesn't really inspire hope that you'd run the table in the next 3. Masai revamped a core that was at least in Eastern Conference championship games continually.

Given the assets we've given up in regards to making future deadline moves with these trades, Matthews and Nylander's contracts entering the last year after this season. It's put up or shut up time. Either he's built a team that can live up to expectations or he hasn't. So far, in the previous 4 years they haven't. No one would say his performance was adequate if you told them that when he replaced Lou, we still wouldn't have advanced a round.

Re. the Jays trade, saying Alomar was clearly better by any metric makes it sound like the trade was an obvious win for the Jays from the start which is clearly false, it that were the case the trade would never have been made. Sure it was a great trade, I've already given my opinion of Gillick but in any case as I already said, trades like that just don't happen in the NHL so I don't see how anyone can knock Dubas for not making a similar one.

I agree the results haven't been there, I also can't fault Dubas for "choosing to build around" those players. Like you said, those were the guys he inherited and pretty much any other GM would have done the same.

Re. Kadri, it's too bad he couldn't control his temper, his multiple playoff suspensions made trading him an obvious move, then he went and got suspended again in Colorado. Had he kept his emotions in check, everything might have turned out different. If he helps us get past Boston, maybe we win another round, he almost certainly doesn't get traded and who knows, maybe he's helped us win a cup by now. When every series goes 7 games, they were all winnable and not sure how Dubas is supposed know in advance that a team that competes all season long and 6 playoff games doesn't show for game 7 for several years in a row.

Masai didn't "revamp the core". He made one big trade, the rest of the core stayed intact and then he made one more trade giving up more future (JV) for the present (Gasol). It worked out but again as I already said, it came oh so close to not working out and then I can only assume you'd be criticizing Masai because like you said, he's "responsible". Like I said, it's a fine line between winning and losing and run it over again a few times (like they often do in poker), there's no way the Leafs don't come out on top and the Raptors end up losing some of the time. Let's not forget that Masai tried to trade Lowry, a trade that was vetoed by the other side but if that had gone through, the Raptors almost certainly don't win a title so there was a fair bit of luck involved there as well. And I would add that I have yet to hear from one person that understands what the heck Masai did at this TDL so while he gets huge props for the Khawi trade, the fact that it worked out well hardly is proof that he's some sort of genius and by that same token, I would assert that the fact that it hasn't worked out for the Leafs so far is hardly proof that Dubas hasn't done his job quite well.

I think most of the moves Dubas has made have been well reasoned, more good than bad and his trades at the current TDL have been great and I'm not going to wait a few months so that I can judge him with the benefit of hindsight. You want to wait and see what happens and that's fine but that's not putting any thought into making a difficult assessment, it's just waiting for the W/L column to be filled.

As far as Fletcher goes, I loved what he did, who doesn't? He fleeced Calgary for one of the best trades in NHL history but lets not forget that that Cinderella run started with a 7th game OT goal so I'm only stating the obvious when I say that this is another example of the fine line between winning and losing and if Detroit scores that OT goal instead, that's the end of that run. That team won two 7 game series, than lost a 3rd and one reason that it got so exciting at the time was because another huge upset happened, PIT who had 20 more points than the Leafs during the season got upset paving MTL's way to the final, othersie the cup wouldn't have seemed nearly as close as it did at the time. Not to mention that we also got lucky by playing STL in the round who had upset CHI who finished 21 points ahead of them during the regular season. That was a fun playoff run but there was more than just a little bit of luck involved, no doubt about it. Even our 3rd round opponent LA knocked off two favored teams to get there so we really got lucky by playing teams weaker than projected. If would the equivalent of others knocking off Boston, Carolina and NJ for us but even then, whoever's left would be a stronger team than those we faced in 93. Two GM's who's teams consistently go 7 games, one's team manages to win so he's a hero, the other is a bum but again, is it really that simple?

And Quinn was pretty good too but TBH, I never felt myself like that team had a real shot at the cup. This team I believe does and that's why I'm more excited then I've been since 1993 and that time around, I sure didn't feel like we had a shot when the playoffs started. It was only after we pulled off the big upset and PIT got upset on the other side of the bracket that things got exciting.

Maybe if we fail again they'll replace Dubas, maybe they won't. I just hope that whoever makes that decision looks a bit deeper than the W/L column as I really do believe it's a bit more complicated than that. I think it's hard to argue that Dubas was wrong to build around this core, you were the one who said he inherited good players so why wouldn't he build around them? And while he start form a good place, completely agree with that I also think the timing of covid hurt the Leafs perhaps more so than any other team and had that not happened (or happened say two years earlier), Dubas would have had far more options at his disposal. The team as it stand now is still easily the best Leaf team of the last 50 years on paper, IMO Dubas has done a good job and now it's up to the players to play to their potential.

JMHO.

 

[kb]

Re. the Jays trade, saying Alomar was clearly better by any metric makes it sound like the trade was an obvious win for the Jays from the start which is clearly false, it that were the case the trade would never have been made. Sure it was a great trade, I've already given my opinion of Gillick but in any case as I already said, trades like that just don't happen in the NHL so I don't see how anyone can knock Dubas for not making a similar one.

I agree the results haven't been there, I also can't fault Dubas for "choosing to build around" those players. Like you said, those were the guys he inherited and pretty much any other GM would have done the same.

Re. Kadri, it's too bad he couldn't control his temper, his multiple playoff suspensions made trading him an obvious move, then he went and got suspended again in Colorado. Had he kept his emotions in check, everything might have turned out different. If he helps us get past Boston, maybe we win another round, he almost certainly doesn't get traded and who knows, maybe he's helped us win a cup by now. When every series goes 7 games, they were all winnable and not sure how Dubas is supposed know in advance that a team that competes all season long and 6 playoff games doesn't show for game 7 for several years in a row.

Masai didn't "revamp the core". He made one big trade, the rest of the core stayed intact and then he made one more trade giving up more future (JV) for the present (Gasol). It worked out but again as I already said, it came oh so close to not working out and then I can only assume you'd be criticizing Masai because like you said, he's "responsible". Like I said, it's a fine line between winning and losing and run it over again a few times (like they often do in poker), there's no way the Leafs don't come out on top and the Raptors end up losing some of the time. Let's not forget that Masai tried to trade Lowry, a trade that was vetoed by the other side but if that had gone through, the Raptors almost certainly don't win a title so there was a fair bit of luck involved there as well. And I would add that I have yet to hear from one person that understands what the heck Masai did at this TDL so while he gets huge props for the Khawi trade, the fact that it worked out well hardly is proof that he's some sort of genius and by that same token, I would assert that the fact that it hasn't worked out for the Leafs so far is hardly proof that Dubas hasn't done his job quite well.

I think most of the moves Dubas has made have been well reasoned, more good than bad and his trades at the current TDL have been great and I'm not going to wait a few months so that I can judge him with the benefit of hindsight. You want to wait and see what happens and that's fine but that's not putting any thought into making a difficult assessment, it's just waiting for the W/L column to be filled.

As far as Fletcher goes, I loved what he did, who doesn't? He fleeced Calgary for one of the best trades in NHL history but lets not forget that that Cinderella run started with a 7th game OT goal so I'm only stating the obvious when I say that this is another example of the fine line between winning and losing and if Detroit scores that OT goal instead, that's the end of that run. That team won two 7 game series, than lost a 3rd and one reason that it got so exciting at the time was because another huge upset happened, PIT who had 20 more points than the Leafs during the season got upset paving MTL's way to the final, othersie the cup wouldn't have seemed nearly as close as it did at the time. Two GM's who's teams consistently go 7 games, one's team manages to win so he's a hero, the other is a bum but again, is it really that simple?

And Quinn was pretty good too but TBH, I never felt myself like that team had a real shot at the cup. This team I believe does and that's why I'm more excited then I've been since 1993 and that time around, I sure didn't feel like we had a shot when the playoffs started. It was only after we pulled off the big upset and PIT got upset on the other side of the bracket that things got exciting.

Maybe if we fail again they'll replace Dubas, maybe they won't. I just hope that whoever makes that decision looks a bit deeper than the W/L column as I really do believe it's a bit more complicated than that. I think it's hard to argue that Dubas was wrong to build around this core, you were the one who said he inherited good players so why wouldn't he build around them? And while he start form a good place, completely agree with that I also think the timing of covid hurt the Leafs perhaps more so than any other team and had that not happened (or happened say two years earlier), Dubas would have had far more options at his disposal. The team as it stand now is still easily the best Leaf team of the last 50 years on paper, IMO Dubas has done a good job and now it's up to the players to play to their potential.

JMHO.

Excellent post, Gary. +1 like