Poll: If you had to decide now: Would you extend Kyle Dubas or let him walk ?

[Maplebeasts]

At this point if the team doesn't win it is solely on the players. This roster is incredible.

 

[slozo]

Would have fired him after gm 7 vs MTL

At this point would say let him walk if a gun was to my head…but it isn’t, it’s an after playoffs thing.

Problem is with Leaf fans, is they have short memories.

 

[RunItBackAgain]

Someone please give me a name of who you'd replace him with. Anyone please

 

[Gary Nylund]

Would have fired him after gm 7 vs MTL

At this point would say let him walk if a gun was to my head…but it isn’t, it’s an after playoffs thing.

Problem is with Leaf fans, is they have short memories.

I would have been completely fine with that move and at the time, I was also in favor of at least looking into what we could get back for Marner in a trade. But I'm also glad that neither of those things happened, and since that MTL series Marner has been playing the best hockey of his career and Dubas has been great as well.

Careful what you wish for, as the saying goes.

Someone please give me a name of who you'd replace him with. Anyone please

The hilarious part is that's exactly the answer many of these "geniuses" around here would give you - anyone.

 

[ErnieLeafs]

Nor should we expect anything better from tr*lls from the Kings board posing as a Leaf fan without ever complimenting them in any way, amirite??

Don't even have to be a fan of his. Only have to have a functional capacity to think.

The best part is that anyone who disagrees with his circular, bull*hit troll job, is in the “Dubas fan club”.

IDGAF if a blind chimp runs the team. I want my team to be good.

 

[Gabriel426]

One of the things I question about Dubas is does he has the balls to make the trade, well he certainly do after these past 9 days. Yes, it had only been 9 days. In these 9 days, Leafs got a 1C in ROR, mid pairing shutdown D in McCabe and TWO right shot Cs who plays heavy and can chip in some offence for the bottom 6. All four guys are built for playoffs due to their style of play and two of them are still contracted beyond this playoffs.

 

[slozo]

I would have been completely fine with that move and at the time, I was also in favor of at least looking into what we could get back for Marner in a trade. But I'm also glad that neither of those things happened, and since that MTL series Marner has been playing the best hockey of his career and Dubas has been great as well.

Careful what you wish for, as the saying goes.


The hilarious part is that's exactly the answer many of these "geniuses" around here would give you - anyone.

I would have been dead set against you - I’d get rid of Matty before Marner …

But who besides Dubas? There are dozens of excellent qualified individuals with smarts and experience. Dubas got to have his sharp ‘learning curve’ with a top original 6 franchise, and it was the wrong move to begin with to go with him over Hunter (or Lou). Smart guy and he’s going to be successful in hockey management don’t get me wrong; but don’t start off the green GM with the Leafs

 

[kb]

The best part is that anyone who disagrees with his circular, bull*hit troll job, is in the “Dubas fan club”.

IDGAF if a blind chimp runs the team. I want my team to be good.

Yup nailed it.

Don't GAF who runs the team as long as they do a good job. Would be annoying to fire Dubas just when he figured it all out.

 

[Stephen]

I said to keep him before the deadline deals because the continuity he brings is important as we enter a transitional phase with the contracts coming due.

And now that he's put us into a win now stance, win or lose, I think we need continuity to pick and choose which of the pieces he's brought in will be retained for the 2023-24 team. With so many interesting pieces, I wouldn't want someone coming in cold and making big roster decisions.

 

[93LEAFS]

Re. the Jays trade, saying Alomar was clearly better by any metric makes it sound like the trade was an obvious win for the Jays from the start which is clearly false, it that were the case the trade would never have been made. Sure it was a great trade, I've already given my opinion of Gillick but in any case as I already said, trades like that just don't happen in the NHL so I don't see how anyone can knock Dubas for not making a similar one.

I agree the results haven't been there, I also can't fault Dubas for "choosing to build around" those players. Like you said, those were the guys he inherited and pretty much any other GM would have done the same.

Re. Kadri, it's too bad he couldn't control his temper, his multiple playoff suspensions made trading him an obvious move, then he went and got suspended again in Colorado. Had he kept his emotions in check, everything might have turned out different. If he helps us get past Boston, maybe we win another round, he almost certainly doesn't get traded and who knows, maybe he's helped us win a cup by now. When every series goes 7 games, they were all winnable and not sure how Dubas is supposed know in advance that a team that competes all season long and 6 playoff games doesn't show for game 7 for several years in a row.

Masai didn't "revamp the core". He made one big trade, the rest of the core stayed intact and then he made one more trade giving up more future (JV) for the present (Gasol). It worked out but again as I already said, it came oh so close to not working out and then I can only assume you'd be criticizing Masai because like you said, he's "responsible". Like I said, it's a fine line between winning and losing and run it over again a few times (like they often do in poker), there's no way the Leafs don't come out on top and the Raptors end up losing some of the time. Let's not forget that Masai tried to trade Lowry, a trade that was vetoed by the other side but if that had gone through, the Raptors almost certainly don't win a title so there was a fair bit of luck involved there as well. And I would add that I have yet to hear from one person that understands what the heck Masai did at this TDL so while he gets huge props for the Khawi trade, the fact that it worked out well hardly is proof that he's some sort of genius and by that same token, I would assert that the fact that it hasn't worked out for the Leafs so far is hardly proof that Dubas hasn't done his job quite well.

I think most of the moves Dubas has made have been well reasoned, more good than bad and his trades at the current TDL have been great and I'm not going to wait a few months so that I can judge him with the benefit of hindsight. You want to wait and see what happens and that's fine but that's not putting any thought into making a difficult assessment, it's just waiting for the W/L column to be filled.

As far as Fletcher goes, I loved what he did, who doesn't? He fleeced Calgary for one of the best trades in NHL history but lets not forget that that Cinderella run started with a 7th game OT goal so I'm only stating the obvious when I say that this is another example of the fine line between winning and losing and if Detroit scores that OT goal instead, that's the end of that run. That team won two 7 game series, than lost a 3rd and one reason that it got so exciting at the time was because another huge upset happened, PIT who had 20 more points than the Leafs during the season got upset paving MTL's way to the final, othersie the cup wouldn't have seemed nearly as close as it did at the time. Not to mention that we also got lucky by playing STL in the round who had upset CHI who finished 21 points ahead of them during the regular season. That was a fun playoff run but there was more than just a little bit of luck involved, no doubt about it. Even our 3rd round opponent LA knocked off two favored teams to get there so we really got lucky by playing teams weaker than projected. If would the equivalent of others knocking off Boston, Carolina and NJ for us but even then, whoever's left would be a stronger team than those we faced in 93. Two GM's who's teams consistently go 7 games, one's team manages to win so he's a hero, the other is a bum but again, is it really that simple?

And Quinn was pretty good too but TBH, I never felt myself like that team had a real shot at the cup. This team I believe does and that's why I'm more excited then I've been since 1993 and that time around, I sure didn't feel like we had a shot when the playoffs started. It was only after we pulled off the big upset and PIT got upset on the other side of the bracket that things got exciting.

Maybe if we fail again they'll replace Dubas, maybe they won't. I just hope that whoever makes that decision looks a bit deeper than the W/L column as I really do believe it's a bit more complicated than that. I think it's hard to argue that Dubas was wrong to build around this core, you were the one who said he inherited good players so why wouldn't he build around them? And while he start form a good place, completely agree with that I also think the timing of covid hurt the Leafs perhaps more so than any other team and had that not happened (or happened say two years earlier), Dubas would have had far more options at his disposal. The team as it stand now is still easily the best Leaf team of the last 50 years on paper, IMO Dubas has done a good job and now it's up to the players to play to their potential.

JMHO.

Well, yeah, on the Gillick front, but a major skill in being a sports manager is identifying trades that are equal, but that you believe you'll win, and you do win.

I'm not exactly against trading Kadri. But, to trade him for a redundant player like Barrie didn't make much sense to me. Yes, he filled the RHD we needed, but he brought none of the traits we needed outside of being a RHD. We had an elite PP the year before, and he's a questionable 5v5 player who needs soft usage. But, the Kadri move was pretty much made to have to happen at some point because of the Matthews/JT deals which stretched our cap space thin, whereas Kadri was an efficient asset at a 2nd line center, but over paid by the deployment he was going to get with us. Which means was it better to keep Kadri at that price, and stay out of the JT sweepstakes and pursue a slightly slowed build with our core. We also are unlikely to be forced into a position where we have to use a 1st to dump Marleau.

Look, at the end of the day it's on everyone in the organization. But, we as outsiders don't get the full details of why and what happens. If, it's on the players, failing to perform then I feel that is something management should be able to recognize and re-shift strategies. As for Masai, later draft picks become impact players much quicker in the NBA, but Siakam and FVV being chosen where we got them were massive parts of that, and Leaf's haven't had a later pick of that quality since probably Kaberle.

Dubas has essentially made his all-in bets with this current team. Outside of Knies, and a 2025 first, we have limited to assets to make a big move without moving one of our big guys, who all outside of Nylander have full NTC's kicking in or have kicked in. I hope people here's faith in him is rewarded with a cup, or atleast something better than a first round exit. But, due to multiple choices he has made or agreed to if this team fails this year, we are facing massive decisions going forward on how to re-shape the team going forward with Matthews and Nylander being able to play their way to UFA (although Nylander can be traded with limited control). The Tavares and Matthews (and to a lesser extent Marner) deals which Dubas signed put us on this timetable. It's not just wins and losses, it's the choices that really put us here where we really have to go in and trade massive futures due to contract situations while Matthews and Marner are still 25. Maybe they have a deal with Matthews locked up going forward, maybe it's time if we fail this year we seriously explore a future without him if he's not 100% in on July 1st when he's eligible to re-sign.

 

[LeafEgo]

He made the mistakes with the cap early in his tenor, but I think he’s been actively trying to fix that. Give him credit for trying. It’s not his fault he was learning on the job.

Yeah I've always thought highly of Dubas the person and never faulted him for the crazy experiment, he just signed the contract given to him.

His team building is looking good these days but I think the jury is still out on the team establishing a winning culture, and that starts at the top. Let's see how they look in the playoffs.

 

[Pebble live]

It's clear he sees the issues in this roster. The team was too soft and easy to compete against in the past. He's attempting to address those issues.

Because he's been willing to try and correct that. You keep him. Extend him another 2 years. See how this year goes and the changes he makes if it fails.

 

[LeafEgo]

I said to keep him before the deadline deals because the continuity he brings is important as we enter a transitional phase with the contracts coming due.

And now that he's put us into a win now stance, win or lose, I think we need continuity to pick and choose which of the pieces he's brought in will be retained for the 2023-24 team. With so many interesting pieces, I wouldn't want someone coming in cold and making big roster decisions.

If we were to lose for the fifth time in a row what would be the value of continuity on contracts and player selections?

 

[kb]

If we were to lose for the fifth time in a row what would be the value of continuity on contracts and player selections?

It depends on whether one thinks that getting a generational team together and losing is on the GM or the coach/players.

 

[Gabriel426]

I am on the extend Dubas wagon after these past 9 days.
He showed that he got the balls to make tough decisions, in this case to go all in with all the missing ingredients of the team.

 

[Stephen]

If we were to lose for the fifth time in a row what would be the value of continuity on contracts and player selections?

Not throwing the baby out with the bath water. Change would be necessary, but you don't want to make mandated changes where big errors could occur.

 

[fancy lad]

The fact that for the last 3 years he has consistently fielded a team high In the standings and labelled as cup challengers is testament that he has built great teams.

not exactly his fault that year in and year out the stupid NHL playoff format keeps f***ing him over.

think about how many first round game 7 losses have come at the hands of cup winners or finalists. It’s insane.

 

[LeafEgo]

Not throwing the baby out with the bath water. Change would be necessary, but you don't want to make mandated changes where big errors could occur.

If Dubas is the baby and players are the bath water, you're suggesting don't throw out the general after a hypothetical five losses on the battlefield, throw out the soldiers. I don't subscribe to that.

I would hope their wouldn't be mandated changes, just a new general with a better vision.

 

[paul9kariya]

people can say what they want, but dubas has been great and not just recently. he wouldn't be out of a job for long if he were let go.

 

[keonsbitterness]

Most talented roster in ___ amount of years. Where I have heard that one before? Oh right, last season, and the bubble season, and the covid shortened season.

At least we can agree the players are part of the problem. But what does that say about a GM who commits roughly 40% of the cap to 3 players who can't win shit? Why is he absolved of all blame when he's the one who identified them as core players and paid them as such? The players are rotten, but he picked them.

Why does Dubas get credited for regular season success (which is meaningless), yet get a free pass for the playoff failures? Please someone provide a competent answer to that question, I'm begging ya'll.

He doesn't get a free pass, and based on his pre-season press conference where it was revealed his contract ends at the end of 22-23, that tells me he'll be let go if there's another first round loss.

But the season is still on, this is a very good team, these trades look like winners, and I prefer that everyone concentrate on that. Wishful thinking I know (see this thread).

 

[geo25]

Unless they get out of the Atlantic, let him walk. When was the last time we saw Shanny and Dubie together ?? Perhaps his spell over Shanny is wearing out and Shanny is distancing himself from Kyle??

Shanny should be out with him and Keefe...

 

[geo25]

It's not a group of nonchalant players that I'm talking about, it's our second best player, Marner, having the pressure get to him and completely wilting when we needed him the most. We didn't need true killers to get through MTL or CBJ, we needed our current talent to play good hockey. I have plenty to say about this group and why I agree they're a bunch of losers, but I don't blame the GM for looking at a 21 year old Mitch Marner and betting that he would be good enough to get it done.



This team has always been good enough to win, and that's what I expect a GM to do. Build a team and then it's up to the players and the coach to win the hockey games. Frankly, anyone who looks at the Leafs rosters over the last five years and argues they were never good enough to win, even accounting for their mental suckitude, is talking purely out of hindsight. The entire premise of the Leafs being so disappointing this era is that they were good enough to win. That's the GM's job, full stop. The rest is on the players, and I don't want a GM who's going to empty the cupboards every year to try and make the team perfect. This is hockey, not poker, and you don't get to lay all your cards down and win because you have the best team. We have a big4, those are the killers right there, and if they don't get it done, it's on them.


I agree but would add that the Coach is also responsible for icing the best team and adjusting the game plan to whoever he plays and recognizing the teams strengths/weaknesses. Imho he is not the proper coach to get this team to play to its abilities. If the team fails again this year I'd keep Dubas on but demand he trade 1 or 2 of his beloved core 4 and get an experienced coach with a winning track record. Its not all on Dubas and he is learning...albiet slowly....If he refuses I'd can the entire mgmt group from Pres to all the asst coaches & start fresh.

I agree but would add that the Coach is also responsible for icing the best team and adjusting the game plan to whoever he plays and recognizing the teams strengths/weaknesses. Imho he is not the proper coach to get this team to play to its abilities. If the team fails again this year I'd keep Dubas on but demand he trade 1 or 2 of his beloved core 4 and get an experienced coach with a winning track record. Its not all on Dubas and he is learning...albiet slowly....If he refuses I'd can the entire mgmt group from Pres to all the asst coaches & start fresh.

 

[Racer88]

At this point if the team doesn't win it is solely on the players. This roster is incredible.

The team make up is different and while I am relatively pleased with the recent changes we still don’t know what we have until we see them in the playoffs.
If the sum is not great then the parts we will be in the same position.
we still have some major legitimate concerns regarding goal tending.
Murray is totally unreliable and Sammy shows flashes of greatness but also has flashes of awful goals.
I hope for the best and I certainly have my fingers crossed

 

[francis246]

Shit I hate mobile, I accidentally pressed let him walk. But I would extend him. He’s proven that he can adjust the philosophy and understands what is required to build a solid team. I think (and I include myself in this) we have to let go of the Kadri trade. Outside of that he’s done a good job.

It just sucks that this core that has been drafted and developed has struggled

 

[cowboy82nd]

The fact that for the last 3 years he has consistently fielded a team high In the standings and labelled as cup challengers is testament that he has built great teams.

not exactly his fault that year in and year out the stupid NHL playoff format keeps f***ing him over.

think about how many first round game 7 losses have come at the hands of cup winners or finalists. It’s insane.

How is the playoff format screwing him over?? It hasn't changed. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's screwing anybody over.