Poll: If you had to decide now: Would you extend Kyle Dubas or let him walk ?

[Drew311]

I've always had faith in Dubas and I don't believe there is a better option available out there. He's put together fantastic teams since he's been here. It's not his fault the players shit the bed when it matters. Dubas can't put the puck in the net himself.

 

[Hoglund4MvP]

speechless on sandin. why. these 29 30+ year old support guys don't make a dent in anything. sandin was up and coming.

jake mccabe schenn lafferty gustafsson, What a bunch of noise. Downhill after O'reilly. Defense needed a impact addition if you're dipping into 1st rounders not a nobody from lottery teams. Jake McCabe's dont bring you up the standings. He's pretty much 30 years old part of group that made sabres nothing special and added not much value to hawks getting out of last place.

At least he got rid of Engvall. Addition for the playoffs by subtraction.

 

[Leafshater67]

Oh no, now you've done it.
Prepare for the D.D.L onslaught.

The what?

 

[notbias]

speechless on sandin. why. these 29 30+ year old support guys don't make a dent in anything. sandin was up and coming.

jake mccabe schenn lafferty gustafsson, What a bunch of noise. Downhill after O'reilly. Defense needed a impact addition if you're dipping into 1st rounders not a nobody from lottery teams. Jake McCabe's dont bring you up the standings. He's pretty much 30 years old part of group that made sabres nothing special and added not much value to hawks getting out of last place.

At least he got rid of Engvall. Addition for the playoffs by subtraction.

The draft pick is even younger than Sandin and more up-and-coming.

Sandin didn't have a path to play meaningful minutes anytime soon.

 

[Dekes For Days]

The what?

It refers to anybody that has either shut down one of his many false claims or committed the inexcusable act of saying something positive about Dubas at some point in time, and for some reason, he's allowed to spam it to try and provoke arguments in every thread.

 

[meefer]

Alec Brownscombe with MapleLeafsHotstove made an observation that surprised me.

"– This might get lost in the shuffle in terms of the changes on the blue line over the past few days: The Leafs added two D who are currently inside the top 25 in five-on-five points this season in Erik Gustafsson (12th) and Luke Schenn (t-25th); it’s three inside the top 40 when we add in Jake McCabe (t-39th).

Due to Rielly’s injury, the Leafs previously had one inside the top 40 in Mark Giordano(t-24th). I’ve always thought this point about production by the D doesn’t get talked about enough when we discuss the Leafs and secondary scoring."

Six new Leafs (and counting) plus a goodbye to Sandin & Engvall: Digesting Kyle Dubas' aggressive trade deadline so far

What an unbelievably fun couple of days and weeks this has been in the build-up to an NHL trade deadline that is not only living up to the hype but easily over-delivering on the promise created by the uniquely strong board of potential trade candidates. We were made to believe serious fireworks...

mapleleafshotstove.com

 

[Dekes For Days]

Alec Brownscombe with MapleLeafsHotstove made an observation that surprised me.

"– This might get lost in the shuffle in terms of the changes on the blue line over the past few days: The Leafs added two D who are currently inside the top 25 in five-on-five points this season in Erik Gustafsson (12th) and Luke Schenn (t-25th); it’s three inside the top 40 when we add in Jake McCabe (t-39th).

Due to Rielly’s injury, the Leafs previously had one inside the top 40 in Mark Giordano(t-24th). I’ve always thought this point about production by the D doesn’t get talked about enough when we discuss the Leafs and secondary scoring."

Six new Leafs (and counting) plus a goodbye to Sandin & Engvall: Digesting Kyle Dubas' aggressive trade deadline so far

What an unbelievably fun couple of days and weeks this has been in the build-up to an NHL trade deadline that is not only living up to the hype but easily over-delivering on the promise created by the uniquely strong board of potential trade candidates. We were made to believe serious fireworks...

mapleleafshotstove.com

That's an interesting angle. I'm pretty sure we've been quite low in defenseman production, especially after losing Muzzin.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Don't know much about Gustafsson but some more data that at least seems interesting: On Washington, the 30-year-old led all defenceman (with 500+ minutes) on the team in five-on-five CF% (54.28), GF% (56.67), xGF% (53.74), and SCF% (54.36).

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

Yup nailed it.

Don't GAF who runs the team as long as they do a good job. Would be annoying to fire Dubas just when he figured it all out.

Took him long enough.

This is an indictment on Shanahan if I ever saw one.

They should have gone with an experienced GM. One that knew what they were doing from the get go. Instead of wasting the primes of the best players in franchise history testing a bunch of theories they read on HockeyGraphs.

It was a costly experiment in roster construction that needs to end now.

Right now.

 

[All Mod Cons]

More than not, I find myself disagreeing with Dubas' moves. I believe most of his previous moves have generally (not all) had a severely poor thought process attached to it.

That changed this deadline. Someone or something has gotten to him. Could it be Spezza? I'm wondering if Spezza is truly the mastermind behind all of this? It's absolutely changed the way Dubas is thinking, and I think it's the correct decision.

I'd extend both Dubas and Spezza personally. Again, I 100% believe that Dubas had already been extended way back last summer.

 

[Arzak]

I voted no since the question was decide now, not after playoffs.

6 years of trading picks away. I love this year's additions but let's face it, with NMC/NTCs lining up and our picks gone, we have this year to try to win the Cup for sure, next year maybe, beyond that?

Contract length matters. Hope we can resign our core, otherwise, we'll be rebuilding with 5th-rounders and players about to get paid know that.


None of it matters if we win it all this year. But it took many steps over a couple of years to get trapped the way we are now.

 

[Drytoast]

Extend. Absolutely extend. It's not even a debate. He's been able to make the team consistently better even though he's handcuffed with no cap space.

 

[meefer]

That's an interesting angle. I'm pretty sure we've been quite low in defenseman production, especially after losing Muzzin.

According to the article, yes.

 

[United35]

speechless on sandin. why. these 29 30+ year old support guys don't make a dent in anything. sandin was up and coming.

jake mccabe schenn lafferty gustafsson, What a bunch of noise. Downhill after O'reilly. Defense needed a impact addition if you're dipping into 1st rounders not a nobody from lottery teams. Jake McCabe's dont bring you up the standings. He's pretty much 30 years old part of group that made sabres nothing special and added not much value to hawks getting out of last place.

At least he got rid of Engvall. Addition for the playoffs by subtraction.

Sandin is a decent young player, but he’s not indispensable imo.

 

[Wilma]

I do not think you can let him go.

As several others have said, the organization top to bottom is in better shape under his (and Shanahan's) leadership. It develops better, scouts better, manages player health better...on and on. It's a more professional organization than at any time that I can remember. That is worth a lot: there's a reason Masai Ujuri was a god in Raptor land before they won a championship.

The number of dud moves under his leadership are rare and typically on the margin. They are either because he's a bit overzealous closing a perceived gap (Foligno, Mrazek) or getting a bit too fixated on a player (limited retention on Murray). In almost all cases, the issue has been short-lived or dealt with at a manageable cost (e.g., the Mrzaek cap dump was masterful asset management). In the meantime, he's made numerous brilliant moves to add talent within his constraints (e.g., Bunting, Muzzin deal before injury, Brodie / Gio signings, Campbell / Samsonov buying low).

The biggest issue we can debate is his philosophy: that a core of four or five skill first, analytical gems can win it all. I think there was some Moneyballing to that through no fault of his own didn't play out (i.e., the flat cap due to COVID kept that commitment to the core relatively higher than it would have been if cap had grown). But you can still argue that that was the wrong bet and it handicapped the team from being more balanced.

Even if that is your beef though I do not know how you could look at this deadline and not see how he's grown to a healthy, blended version of his model. The guys he's added are a perfect balance of the hard-nose, Don Cherry, intensity types we have been lacking with the analytical darlings he's typically after. The fact he's added them within his budget - and sometimes for years, like McCabe - is objectively brilliant work. Meanwhile, the core he insisted on but others wanted to break-up has continued to perform - with Nylander in particular looking like one of the best deals in the league.

So, put me in the resign Dubas camp. If the players don't show up in Round 1 then it is on them and not the GM who's put together the best roster in decades. If they flop again, they should break up the core beause they just don't have it...but if we're re-engineering our roster, we would be wise to trust Dubas to lead it.

 

[ShaneFalco]

He's been able to make the team consistently better even though he's handcuffed with no cap space.

Because?

 

[Drew311]

Sandin is a decent young player, but he’s not indispensable imo.

He was 100% dispensable. Some fans just get married to prospects/young players and this clouds their understanding of what the Leafs are trying to do....win a cup. Sandin just can't be relied on to play meaningful and effective minutes in a long playoff run. Gustafsson has much more experience and brings much needed offense to the back end, possibly on PP1.

 

[Peasy]

speechless on sandin. why. these 29 30+ year old support guys don't make a dent in anything. sandin was up and coming.

jake mccabe schenn lafferty gustafsson, What a bunch of noise. Downhill after O'reilly. Defense needed a impact addition if you're dipping into 1st rounders not a nobody from lottery teams. Jake McCabe's dont bring you up the standings. He's pretty much 30 years old part of group that made sabres nothing special and added not much value to hawks getting out of last place.

At least he got rid of Engvall. Addition for the playoffs by subtraction.

Let me try and frame Sandin from a different perspective.

This summer, the guy held out for a contract. Hear that again, a guy who was primarily a bottom pairing d man on his ELC, held out and played hard ball on his next contract because he thought he deserved a larger role and playing time. He only signed his deal when the Leafs got a bunch of injuries and he knew he would get playing time.

This guy was drafted near the end of the 1st round, and had the entitlement to hold out for a contract. You think this would sit well with management and maybe even some of the players?

What about Rielly, Gio, Brodie etc, Sandin was essentially saying that he is better than some of these guys and deserves to play over them with his holdout.

 

[BertCorbeau]

More than not, I find myself disagreeing with Dubas' moves. I believe most of his previous moves have generally (not all) had a severely poor thought process attached to it.

That changed this deadline. Someone or something has gotten to him. Could it be Spezza? I'm wondering if Spezza is truly the mastermind behind all of this? It's absolutely changed the way Dubas is thinking, and I think it's the correct decision.

I'd extend both Dubas and Spezza personally. Again, I 100% believe that Dubas had already been extended way back last summer.

I keep thinking last summer how Dubas said he was going to transform the look of the bottom 6 and be harder to play against. But when you look at the moves made, it was sort of.. Meh. So that makes me wonder if Dubas couldn't work out the roster they way he wanted so he did what he could knowing that the team is good enough to be strong in the regular season.

Now seeing the same issues arise with the group (consistent compete, a bottom 6 with not much identity) he's used this deadline to revamp the team to what his vision is. It's a positive sign they he sees the flaws in the group and isn't going back against Tampa with a similar make up.

Spezza no doubt has influence on what the vibe in the room is like and what could help.

I will say that it is a lot of roster change at this point in the season. So there may be chemistry issues, but given the Leafs' have been in this similar playoff seeding position in no-mans land for awhile now and won't be winning the division, these trades actually might wake the team up ahead of the stretch run.

Look at what Acciari's addition has done. I think this move re-affirmed to Dubas the impact of this type of player can have in the bottom 6, so he went more aggressive.

As for re-signing .. it's a results-oriented business, so another first round exit is a tough pill to swallow. But then again you can make the argument that he's given the team all of the necessary pieces to contend.

I like more moves he's done more than not, so I'm not opposed to it. I also see Dubas' is learning in his role, and his trades are becoming a bit more clever. You'd hate to see him take this experience to another team and make them a winner. But I'm truly in the middle at this point, going either way.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Took him long enough.

This is an indictment on Shanahan if I ever saw one.

They should have gone with an experienced GM. One that knew what they were doing from the get go. Instead of wasting the primes of the best players in franchise history testing a bunch of theories they read on HockeyGraphs.

It was a costly experiment in roster construction that needs to end now.

Right now.

They had an experienced GM. Over the course of 246 games he set them up with Rielly, Hainsey, Polak, Dermott, Zaitsev and Gardiner. In 350 games the inexperienced one set them up with Rielly, Brodie, Giordano, Muzzin, McCabe, Gustafsson, *Liljegren, Timmins etc. I suppose the experienced guy would have gotten all that done with the extra 100 games (was admittedly a long ways off over the first 246).

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

They had an experienced GM. Over the course of 246 games he set them up with Rielly, Hainsey, Polak, Dermott, Zaitsev and Gardiner. In 350 games the inexperienced one set them up with Rielly, Brodie, Giordano, Muzzin, McCabe, Gustafsson, *Liljegren, Timmins etc. I suppose the experienced guy would have gotten all that done with the extra 100 games (was admittedly a long ways off over the first 246).

So what's the difference?

The names on the backs of the jersey's have changed.

The results are still the same.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Because?

Mostly COVID.

 

[Peasy]

I keep thinking last summer how Dubas said he was going to transform the look of the bottom 6 and be harder to play against. But when you look at the moves made, it was sort of.. Meh. So that makes me wonder if Dubas couldn't work out the roster they way he wanted so he did what he could knowing that the team is good enough to be strong in the regular season.

Now seeing the same issues arise with the group (consistent compete, a bottom 6 with not much identity) he's used this deadline to revamp the team to what his vision is. It's a positive sign they he sees the flaws in the group and isn't going back against Tampa with a similar make up.

Spezza no doubt has influence on what the vibe in the room is like and what could help.

I will say that it is a lot of roster change at this point in the season. So there may be chemistry issues, but given the Leafs' have been in this similar playoff seeding position in no-mans land for awhile now and won't be winning the division, these trades actually might wake the team up ahead of the stretch run.

Look at what Acciari's addition has done. I think this move re-affirmed to Dubas the impact of this type of player can have in the bottom 6, so he went more aggressive.

As for re-signing .. it's a results-oriented business, so another first round exit is a tough pill to swallow. But then again you can make the argument that he's given the team all of the necessary pieces to contend.

I like more moves he's done more than not, so I'm not opposed to it. I also see Dubas' is learning in his role, and his trades are becoming a bit more clever. You'd hate to see him take this experience to another team and make them a winner. But I'm truly in the middle at this point, going either way.

Whether you agree with his moves or not, Dubas has completely re-shaped the Leafs as much as he could aside from trading one of the 4. He has completely transformed the D and bottom 6, and even some top 6 wingers.

I take a look at what Ken Holland has done with the Oilers, and I think overall he has made them a worse team, but is being carried by McDrais. I think its no question that on paper, Dubas has made the Leafs a much better team than they were when he became gm.

I think Dubas is far from the worst you can get from a gm, and if Dubas were to leave, who knows who the replacement will be. I think theres a good chance the replacement gm would be worse, and yesterday I really started to wonder how the Oilers would look if Dubas was in charge of them.

 

[therealkoho]

That wasn’t the argument. I’d agree with skewing starts more towards samsonov now, but Murray will play close to a split when healthy. This is still a tandem

Oh Kev, why even bother?

 

[ShaneFalco]

What I keep hearing is "We could get someone worse"
Well if Dubas can't get this team past the first round, witht he talent we have, how much worse can it get?