Poll: If you had to decide now: Would you extend Kyle Dubas or let him walk ?

[TorontoTrades]

I understand the frustration with our playoff track record but you can't tell me Dubas hasn't done enough. Go back and look at our D core when he took over. He has given this team every opportunity and the team has been the ones not to come through.

I would keep him.

 

[ACC1224]

For some reason I can't vote so I don't see any results but I know you can't say the guy isn't trying

I think you need to be a member for a short period of time before you can vote in a poll or start a thread.

 

[ShaneFalco]

What's your point? Over half of the teams in the league are pressed to the cap and most of them are in far worse shape than Toronto because they have contracts with not great players paid more than they are worth.

It's interesting that the "derp derp look at excel boy" crowd would have you believe that when he signed his contracts he just completely missed the notion of long term planning. Seems like something an analysis driven person would do, right? I mean, he probably didn't look and say "well on average, for the past 15 years the cap has risen $2.83 M per year" and build that in at all. If 15 year average hel, you are looking at $8.5 M more space today.

No doubt, genius that you are, you would have called the worldwide pandemic.

And on that note - see ya

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

I'm up there. B


I'm up there and the organization was a shit-show for decades. But look what Dubas has inherited, and if he can't get it done in the playoffs, the fear of someone could be worse, is a defeatist attitude/loser mentality

I'm not one who fears worse but I am very much a "constructive criticism" type and most of the constantly negative crowd will never offer up any solutions, nothing concrete. I'm also one who would argue pretty heavily against what he "inherited". There is very little of the team that doesn't have his finger prints and there were some massive gaping holes (like a whole d corps) from that incredible 105 point team.

 

[ShaneFalco]

It was Covid
It was lack of cap space
They should have beat....
They barely lost.....
They were unlucky
The refs man!
Injuries....
But team x took y years to ........

It never ends with some
Get it done or bring in someone who can. Just like he Raptors did

 

[therealkoho]

Dubas overpays did that, not COVID.

[/QUOTE]
Covid screwed up the cap, had it kept rising on it's projected trajectory, those contracts wouldn't seem so debilitating today. That said Willy, his Dad and his agent backed Dubas into a corner and won. ATM it's one of the best contracts in the league. So give Dubas an unlikely win.

It was Matthews and his dad that made an absolute fool of him not once but twice, the second time was that contract and that contract then resulted in the Marner contract. I believe all of that has taught him some valuable lessons and if Morgan ever gets his shite together his contract will look like aces.

poor goalie planning, no left wingers, and no #1D were other situations.

[/QUOTE]
no answers for this because the question is asking for stuff that either didn't work out or hasn't bloomed as yet. There are things that are out of his control, like Morgan taking this baffling step backwards. Robertson breaking a leg and following that up with tearing up his shoulder, player's getting injured is not Dubas fault!

trying to trade for a LW when the whole league knows you're desperate for one, isn't a recipe for success.

Tavares was another misstake. By the time this team was somewhat balanced, Kadri was better than JT.

[/QUOTE]
Tavares has been a point a game player, well over 50% on the dot and provided the younger guys with a real good example, yes they paid up but UFAs are what they are

Trading all those first round picks for no results.

[/QUOTE]
guys get hurt nobody can know when, some of those acquisitions provided leadership and set good examples for a team that was primarily full of kids

Boston leapfrogs us again by solid defending and a good goalie - again.

[/QUOTE]
Some guys have all the luck as Rod used to sing, I will say that a lot of that luck was delivered to them by the Leafs on a silver platter and they've also been blessed with great goaltending and strong leadership in Bergeron etal. It hasnt hurt them at all that the NHL disciplinary committee allowed certain Bruins to run wild

We are Corsi Kings in the regular season, and the game changes for the playoffs and Matthews and Marner dont have answers.

Yes you're correct that the big 4 didn't provide any pushback but I really don't want them to do that. I think the team now has those answers they didn't have before with the recent acquisitions. The goaltending is the only question mark left.

 

[Mess]

"Sports is a results oriented business", where Playoff results matter and determine championships.

Dubas inherited a 105 point (record setting team at that time) that lost in game #7 to Boston.

If 5 years later the Leafs are a 110-115 regular season point team that loses in round #1

What has he achieved that would earn him an extension?

 

[hotpaws]

I'm not one who fears worse but I am very much a "constructive criticism" type and most of the constantly negative crowd will never offer up any solutions, nothing concrete. I'm also one who would argue pretty heavily against what he "inherited". There is very little of the team that doesn't have his finger prints and there were some massive gaping holes (like a whole d corps) from that incredible 105 point team.

Yup the positive crowd that’s constantly negative towards anything not connected to Dubas to try to make his light shine brighter , lol .

 

[ALine]

That's three times now that Dubas had the opportunity to fill that 1RHD position properly.

Not once, not twice, but three times he could have gotten a Norris caliber defenseman for the most difficult position to find elite talent.

He FAILED.

His stupid promise to not trade Nylander and his commitment to the four forward experiment is sure to be the end of the Dubas regime. If Dubas really wanted to go all-in he should have traded for Meier and Karlsson, even off it meant moving Nylander or Marner back.

Figure out who stays and who goes in the summer

You get an upgrade on Nylander and this year's probable Norris trophy winner - the same guy who has won it twice already, the best defenseman in decades, and who still has a few more years on his contract.

That would have been all-in.

This, on the other. is a best effort by an inexperienced lame duck GM grasping at straws trying to save his job.

That's what this is.

Like I said: expensive and stupid.

If by some miracle they actually win a playoffs round,I sure hope that isn't enough for Tanenbaum to keep the Dumbnamic Duo still around. One playoffs series win in nine years is not anything to be proud of.

I'm sorry, but it just isn't.

Given how much they have mortgages the future for this run, anything less than an appearance in the finals should be seen as insufficient.

Cause there is nothing left after this to pay for another.

Imagine this being your take against Dubas, folks.
Just imagine.

Trading one of the best value contracts in the league in Nylander, 80+ point winger, signed for 1 more year at 6.9, for an arguable worse winger who is a rental and requires a 10 million dollar qualifying offer to retain after this season. That, and the 11 and a half million dollar 32 y/o defensemen with 4 more years owed. The last 3 of which has been injury riddled and lacklustre performance wise.

It’s good you can recognize how well Dubas has managed the cap as evidenced by your proposal, but I don’t think even he could navigate all those land mines.

 

[BTP]

He just signed a 5 year extension with his dealings this past week, imo

 

[CabanaBoy5]

That's three times now that Dubas had the opportunity to fill that 1RHD position properly.

Not once, not twice, but three times he could have gotten a Norris caliber defenseman for the most difficult position to find elite talent.

He FAILED.

His stupid promise to not trade Nylander and his commitment to the four forward experiment is sure to be the end of the Dubas regime. If Dubas really wanted to go all-in he should have traded for Meier and Karlsson, even off it meant moving Nylander or Marner back.

Figure out who stays and who goes in the summer

You get an upgrade on Nylander and this year's probable Norris trophy winner - the same guy who has won it twice already, the best defenseman in decades, and who still has a few more years on his contract.

That would have been all-in.

This, on the other. is a best effort by an inexperienced lame duck GM grasping at straws trying to save his job.

That's what this is.

Like I said: expensive and stupid.

If by some miracle they actually win a playoffs round,I sure hope that isn't enough for Tanenbaum to keep the Dumbnamic Duo still around. One playoffs series win in nine years is not anything to be proud of.

I'm sorry, but it just isn't.

Given how much they have mortgages the future for this run, anything less than an appearance in the finals should be seen as insufficient.

Cause there is nothing left after this to pay for another.

I could not disagree more on many of the things you've said. Dubas identified a need to get players who compete and/or have speed and experience on the bottom 6 and he has done that. He identified a need for more depth on the defence and he has found that. The core, which is one of the best in the league, just needed to be surrounded by these kinds of players. You need the supporting characters to advance and win the Stanley Cup.

You think he mortgaged the future now, imagine if he would have made a play for Meier or Karlsson. Yeah, you'd be going all in but at the expense of gutting your entire prospect pool. Meier would have been a pure rental, no way we'd be able to sign him without getting rid of one of the core 4. Sorry, but I think Nylander is a better player than Meier so let's focus on resigning him. He also still has all his prospects, and a 2023 and 2024 1st. Those would be gone and more. Expensive and stupid would be to gut your prospect pool for only one run at this. With the team he has now, we have a few years with a legitimate opportunity to win the Cup.

You can't fault him for trying to improve the goaltending. Samsonov has worked out ok, Murray the jury is still out. He may still come in and play great in the playoffs. You also can't fault him for not having a Vasi who can steal you a series singlehandedly. These kind of goalies are difficult to find, and the teams that have them won't trade them.

 

[ALine]

"Sports is a results oriented business", where Playoff results matter and determine championships.

Dubas inherited a 105 point (record setting team at that time) that lost in game #7 to Boston.

If 5 years later the Leafs are a 110-115 regular season point team that loses in round #1

What has he achieved that would earn him an extension?

The 115 point team last season, beating the franchise record by 10 points, should give Dubas a little runway.
I’ve seen your post history and your careful to be non-committal, but if you believe Lou should have been given another opportunity to build off that season after subsequently losing in the first round im sure you would extend the same gratitude towards Dubas besting that franschise record and ultimately seeing the same result.

 

[ShaneFalco]

"Sports is a results oriented business", where Playoff results matter and determine championships.

Dubas inherited a 105 point (record setting team at that time) that lost in game #7 to Boston.

If 5 years later the Leafs are a 110-115 regular season point team that loses in round #1

What has he achieved that would earn him an extension?

Exactly! The fear that the next guy could be worse is what I'm seeing

 

[Mess]

Exactly! The fear that the next guy could be worse is what I'm seeing

If anyone in any position was hired to improve on past results and the starting point was losing in round #1 in a hard fought series losing in game #7.

If those results after 5 years was still lost in round #1, then what has been achieved to move the needle even 1 step further?

However the damage inflicted on the future based on all the draft picks dealt without success only makes the job for the next guy so much harder, but is really paying dearly for failure in the present.

Leafs currently only have 5 surviving )at present) draft picks in the top 120 picks over the next 3 years.

Dubas has gone all-in mortgaging the future betting on himself and this team this year after 4 years of failure,

All we as fans can do is hope that the "end justifies the means" and that this is the year it all pays off at which point if it does Dubas will be re-signed and if it fails he should be let go. IMO

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

Imagine this being your take against Dubas, folks.
Just imagine.

Trading one of the best value contracts in the league in Nylander, 80+ point winger, signed for 1 more year at 6.9, for an arguable worse winger who is a rental and requires a 10 million dollar qualifying offer to retain after this season. That, and the 11 and a half million dollar 32 y/o defensemen with 4 more years owed. The last 3 of which has been injury riddled and lacklustre performance wise.

It’s good you can recognize how well Dubas has managed the cap as evidenced by your proposal, but I don’t think even he could navigate all those land mines.

Imagine this as your proposal: trade nearly three full years of picks, along with good prospect player like Sandin, for a bunch of depth players, not one of who will be on the top line, because not good enough to be a difference maker.

Because that's what actually really happened.

It sounds like a joke. Like I just made that up. Almost three years of draft picks and Sandin. All gone. With the main pieces coming back being a 2/3 C in O'Reilly, and a #4D in McCabe.

But that actually really happened.

Again.

I'd rather have the soon to be three time Norris trophy winner and greatest defenseman of his time having one of the best years of his career on the team for this playoffs run.

Figure out who to keep in the offseason.

But you're probably right. They don't need Meier and Karlsson on the team.

They got Gustafsson and McCabe now.

That's sooooo much better than a generational superstar defenseman.

What was I thinking?

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

I could not disagree more on many of the things you've said. Dubas identified a need to get players who compete and/or have speed and experience on the bottom 6 and he has done that. He identified a need for more depth on the defence and he has found that. The core, which is one of the best in the league, just needed to be surrounded by these kinds of players. You need the supporting characters to advance and win the Stanley Cup.

You think he mortgaged the future now, imagine if he would have made a play for Meier or Karlsson. Yeah, you'd be going all in but at the expense of gutting your entire prospect pool. Meier would have been a pure rental, no way we'd be able to sign him without getting rid of one of the core 4. Sorry, but I think Nylander is a better player than Meier so let's focus on resigning him. He also still has all his prospects, and a 2023 and 2024 1st. Those would be gone and more. Expensive and stupid would be to gut your prospect pool for only one run at this. With the team he has now, we have a few years with a legitimate opportunity to win the Cup.

You can't fault him for trying to improve the goaltending. Samsonov has worked out ok, Murray the jury is still out. He may still come in and play great in the playoffs. You also can't fault him for not having a Vasi who can steal you a series singlehandedly. These kind of goalies are difficult to find, and the teams that have them won't trade them.

Is the team that was on pace to set yet another regular season record really that much improved adding these guys?

An incremental improvement at the bottom of the roster isn't good enough.

Those depth role players don't affect the game as much as an elite talent does.

Would you rather have five ordinary stones or one diamond?

 

[CabanaBoy5]

Is the team that was on pace to set yet another regular season record really that much improved adding these guys?

An incremental improvement at the bottom of the roster isn't good enough.

Those depth role players don't affect the game as much as an elite talent does.

Would you rather have five ordinary stones or one diamond?

We have the diamonds. We got ourselves gemstones to replace the ordinary stones we had.

 

[Mess]

The 115 point team last season, beating the franchise record by 10 points, should give Dubas a little runway.
I’ve seen your post history and your careful to be non-committal, but if you believe Lou should have been given another opportunity to build off that season after subsequently losing in the first round im sure you would extend the same gratitude towards Dubas besting that franschise record and ultimately seeing the same result.

Most teams don't replace their Hockey Hall of Fame GM after setting a franchise best mark after only 2 years after finishing dead last overall.

Inheriting a 69 point team and drafting your teams franchise #1C Matthews and 2 season later are posting a 105 point record setting season with a game #7 round #1 loss.

That is a +36 point improvement in the standings.

While inheriting a 105 point team (along with a core of Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Rielly etc) and 4 seasons later while these kids are now in their primes produces a 115 point season that's only a +10 point improvement regular season with zero improvement/advancement in the playoffs.

That improvement alone could be chalked up the growth and maturation of those core players alone.

Core Before - Ages 19 - 23

Core After - Ages 23-27

Matthews alone the player Lou Lam drafted went from 63 points ( as part of 105 point team) to 60 goals (as part of 115 point result).

Matthews wins the Rocket (most goals) and Hart (league MVP) and Dubas is riding the coattails of the best player he inherited.

Back at you .. If Lou Lam wasn't given an opportunity after setting a franchise record points then why should Dubas be given more time?

 

[ALine]

Imagine this as your proposal: trade nearly three full years of picks, along with good prospect player like Sandin, for a bunch of depth players, not one of who will be on the top line, because not good enough to be a difference maker.

Because that's what actually really happened.

It sounds like a joke. Like I just made that up. Almost three years of draft picks and Sandin. All gone. With the main pieces coming back being a 2/3 C in O'Reilly, and a #4D in McCabe.

But that actually really happened.

Again.

I'd rather have the soon to be three time Norris trophy winner and greatest defenseman of his time having one of the best years of his career on the team for this playoffs run.

Figure out who to keep in the offseason.

But you're probably right. They don't need Meier and Karlsson on the team.

They got Gustafsson and McCabe now.

That's sooooo much better than a generational superstar defenseman.

What was I thinking?

Timo Meier’s only chance of being on the top line here is because we traded away a better top line winger to replace him with.
Erik karlsson, while having a good year offensively on a bad team, still can’t defend, and would be the highest paid player on the team. Be honest with me and yourself, have you ever said anything negative about the Leafs very tight, and sometime precarious cap situation? Because this adds to that precarity without adding much value over what we have.

For all we gave up, we got a 2C because we have 1 80+ point winger and another all situation, 2X first team all star winger. Now our 70-80 point 2C can slide to winger because we acquired a similar profile C to play with him there. Plus a top 4D, and some depth. You understand the leafs were already one of the best defensive teams in the league right? We also needed to improve the bottom 6 and have done just that. A glaring weakness from years passed. Surely you know this?
Three full years of draft picks? Your being apoplectic, and disingenuous, for no discernible reason because that’s patently false. We have up some good picks and received some good players. None of which cost us our 1st line winger for a downgrade or a boat anchor contracted defensemen.

Sandin trade was a shrewd move to get back into the first round to draft this year, and for a player sandin might become one day, for a guy who held out in training camp, didn’t want to be here and because he thought he was better than Rielly, Giordano, and Muzzin.

 

[Gabriel426]

I voted extend. Mainly bc what he has done in this TDL.
Prior to the TDL. My criticisms on Dubas is that 1. Does he knows what’s the team is lacking. 2. Does he has the balls to make the tough trade?

He answered one of them during the past and sort of answered the other too, or at the very least I have faith he can do it.

 

[ACC1224]

Most teams don't replace their Hockey Hall of Fame GM after setting a franchise best mark after only 2 years after finishing dead last overall.

Inheriting a 69 point team and drafting your teams franchise #1C Matthews and 2 season later are posting a 105 point record setting season with a game #7 round #1 loss.

That is a +36 point improvement in the standings.

While inheriting a 105 point team (along with a core of Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Rielly etc) and 4 seasons later while these kids are now in their primes produces a 115 point season that's only a +10 point improvement regular season with zero improvement/advancement in the playoffs.

That improvement alone could be chalked up the growth and maturation of those core players alone.

Core Before - Ages 19 - 23

View attachment 660169

Core After - Ages 23-27

View attachment 660172

Matthews alone the player Lou Lam drafted went from 63 points ( as part of 105 point team) to 60 goals (as part of 115 point result).

Matthews wins the Rocket (most goals) and Hart (league MVP) and Dubas is riding the coattails of the best player he inherited.

Back at you .. If Lou Lam wasn't given an opportunity after setting a franchise record points then why should Dubas be given more time?

Lou Lam was always only a temporary measure and mentor for Dubas. He wasn't removed because of his performance.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Yup the positive crowd that’s constantly negative towards anything not connected to Dubas to try to make his light shine brighter , lol .

Hey look! Captain Constructive Criticism!!

 

[HamiltonNHL]

"Sports is a results oriented business"

Results are good.

Toronto Maple Leafs on the Forbes The Business of Hockey List

Toronto Maple Leafs #1 on the Forbes The Business of Hockey List

www.forbes.com

 

[keonsbitterness]

I'd rather have the soon to be three time Norris trophy winner and greatest defenseman of his time having one of the best years of his career on the team for this playoffs run.

He has successfully led his team to a massive struggle for 32nd spot. Why should I trust him to be 'the guy" when the games really count?

 

[sxvnert]

Playoff success will be the deciding factor. All of the style of moves over the past few weeks should have been done years ago. I'm glad hes finally come around but I'm not giving him credit for being stubborn.