Salary Cap: Penguins Salary Cap Thread: We suck again summer edition

[Randy Butternubs]

What's Koltsov up to?

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

What's Koltsov up to?

I bet Rico Fata would look good on L4.

But... can he PK?

 

[Peat]

I keep on referring back to the early aughts teams but realistically nothing like THAT is ever gonna happen again. It's a capped league and the team has a building and legit revenue streams. Not to mention a rich ownership group that just hired a hotshot to run the whole shebang. This isn't a team that is going to want to be down on the mat for half a decade or more. Plus regarding tanking... the way draft rules are set up now versus then make it much less a sure thing.

I definitely want the team to grab some primo picks once Sid/G retire... you gotta have some of those to properly reload and I hope once that time comes the team understands that. But league and team dynamics have changed so so much since the days I keep referencing.

Even in today's league, it's possible to suck for a good long time and I'm not talking the joke franchises that are chronically poorly run. Anaheim are on season five of not getting above 80 points and the end isn't in sight. Chicago are on season six of irrelevance. Detroit season seven. Teams that one day run out of core after not restocking while on top, and who therefore don't even have assets to sell off to speed up the rebuild, are in a world of pain.

At the start of the Hextall era, I thought that FSG would do everything possible to avoid that and we could expect a lengthy bubble period afterwards. I think Hextall has made that very difficult due to his investment of cap and assets into players who'll be done at the same time Sid and co are.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Even in today's league, it's possible to suck for a good long time and I'm not talking the joke franchises that are chronically poorly run. Anaheim are on season five of not getting above 80 points and the end isn't in sight. Chicago are on season six of irrelevance. Detroit season seven. Teams that one day run out of core after not restocking while on top, and who therefore don't even have assets to sell off to speed up the rebuild, are in a world of pain.

At the start of the Hextall era, I thought that FSG would do everything possible to avoid that and we could expect a lengthy bubble period afterwards. I think Hextall has made that very difficult due to his investment of cap and assets into players who'll be done at the same time Sid and co are.

That's true.

I dunno... it just seems harder to bottom out these days. Harder for sure for the Penguins now versus then. I guess what I'm saying is that it's easy to say to yourself "welp back to the plan that got us here from the start" but forget that that was like 20 years ago and the team and the way the league is structured is in a farrrrrrrr different spot.

But yeah you can definitely still find yourself in abject mediocrity. For all of the struggles of the three teams you listed above... the best draft position they have managed collectively in the timeframe referenced is 3rd overall (Kirby Dach Chicago 2019 and Mason McTavish Anaheim 2021). Which... meh. The reward for abject failure isn't quite what it was.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Just like it has always been, just getting high draft picks won't make a team good. You need to have good management. If Dubas isn't that guy, FSG made a major mistake in giving him the contract that they gave him.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Also I hadn't seen it mentioned anywhere which was a little surprising but Stan Savran passed away.

Seems appropriate to fold into a conversation loosely orbiting around the old days.

 

[Pens x]

I believe you missed the main point of my post, and what it says about your character. And for the record, I'll be plenty patient with Dubas.

Dubas is more qualified than Hextall ever was, but I hope the fan base doesn’t bury their heads in the sand, ignoring all red flags for the next 2.5 years if Dubas sucks too. Hopefully, there won’t be so many mistakes made by Dubas, but if there are, I hope we can recognize the mistakes and not try to minimize them. This place was pretty insufferable hearing people defend someone as bad as Hextall for 2+ years.

Remember, patient doesn’t mean incompetent.

However, Dubas’ contract gives him an extremely long leash. He will have the ability to suck for 3 or 4 years before FSG makes a move.

 

[Pancakes]

Just like it has always been, just getting high draft picks won't make a team good. You need to have good management. If Dubas isn't that guy, FSG made a major mistake in giving him the contract that they gave him.

Good management and good luck.

Imagine you tank and you get Lafrenierre and Kakko lol

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Honestly I think the whole zone starts thing is a little overblown. It has effects for sure but Jeff Carter for example started 57% of his shifts on the fly.

Perhaps the d-zone starts didn't do him any favors, but what the hell was he doing the other 57% of his shifts?

Wondering why Danton Heinen exists and how the hell he keeps getting top 6 time?

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Just like it has always been, just getting high draft picks won't make a team good. You need to have good management. If Dubas isn't that guy, FSG made a major mistake in giving him the contract that they gave him.

See I think Dubas is the bloke that will fix the system that needs fresh blood. Wbs used to be a position sought after as it was a launching pad for a lot of head coaches in the league - Bylsma, Richards, Hynes, Sullivan, Nasreddine as an assistant and etc.

Lately though after the scandal with Donatelli, it's like "Hey which inexperienced coach that's up and coming can we hire for this shit show?"

Then the head coach on the big club doesn't use the players in positions to succeed so it makes wbs look even worse. Like imagine coming up being a skilled winger and you're thrown on a line with Jeff f***ing Carter and Dunce Heinen. Or you don't get called up at all and then hear the coach whine about not enough speed and youth in the line up, especially bottom 6 and you look at how he utilizes what he does have and it's like ok bud, you're a f***ing tosser.

Dubas can fix a lot of the scouting, wbs talent at coaching, etc. But if he doesn't identify what JR And Hextall couldn't with Sullivan then yeah, what the f*** is even the point with the rest if he's where the line is drawn for any progress. It's odd to me how much they made the previous GM the scapegoat for the issues. These were slow cooking for a while, it goes back to how he used Hagelin which made JR pull a panic move, the issues with Cole, the misusage of Pearson, etc.

They literally dug into the archives for Archibald and then Bonino. They will never fire this clown mid season. He will f*** up another year or two before they say oh hey he's been the issue this whole time!!!

 

[Peat]

Good management and good luck.

Imagine you tank and you get Lafrenierre and Kakko lol

Good development too. You've got to go back to 2013 to find a Rangers forward pick that's hit their ceiling (Duclair and Buchnevich). At some point you've got to ask big questions about how they're guiding guys. The results they've got out of Andersson, Kravtsov, Kakko and Lafreniere are abysmal given expectations and when it's one guy you can blame the scouts, but then it's four with no reaches...

I speak with hopeful malice, but NYR could be in for a very mediocre time should that forward core of Panarin/Kreider/Zib/Trochek fall off without the kids riding in to the save them. Would be a massive shame.

 

[The Great Mighty Poo]

Regarding Poehling's speed, he has high top end speed but I never really got the impression that he played a fast style. Maybe it was just the guys he was being surrounded with, but I really never noticed him playing fast with the puck on his stick or on the attack with his linemates with any sort of regularity.

He clearly showed wheels at times last year, like with this goal:



But I just feel like he didn't play as fast as his skating speed suggests he should be playing.

Was at this game behind the x2 attacking zone goal, "Hot damn is Poheling deceptively quick" was all I was thinking all night, he really doesn't look like he's moving as fast as he is.

 

[Pancakes]

Also I hadn't seen it mentioned anywhere which was a little surprising but Stan Savran passed away.

Seems appropriate to fold into a conversation loosely orbiting around the old days.

Never met Stan but just from listening to him he always seemed genuinely kind. Some people just have that vibe and he was one of them.

Wish I'd had a chance to meet him. He'll definitely be missed.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Also I can't remember who I was talking with this about yesterday, but a big reason I could see Comtois as a UFA option for the Penguins is that his qualifying offer is actually fairly high for what he has been providing in recent years. Because his salary was $2.55 million last year, his qualifying offer is actually 120% of his AAV from his last deal, which Capfriendly is saying is $2.455 million. That's kinda a lot for a guy with 35 points in his last 116 games.

I think Anaheim may decide to keep him regardless, because they have plenty of cap space and they might want to see how Comtois does with a new coach. But I think his struggles with his high qualifying offer may make Anaheim decide to not qualify him. They did the same thing to Sonny Milano last off-season, who had 34 points in 66 games for Anaheim in 2021-2022.

 

[Pancakes]

Good development too. You've got to go back to 2013 to find a Rangers forward pick that's hit their ceiling (Duclair and Buchnevich). At some point you've got to ask big questions about how they're guiding guys. The results they've got out of Andersson, Kravtsov, Kakko and Lafreniere are abysmal given expectations and when it's one guy you can blame the scouts, but then it's four with no reaches...

I speak with hopeful malice, but NYR could be in for a very mediocre time should that forward core of Panarin/Kreider/Zib/Trochek fall off without the kids riding in to the save them. Would be a massive shame.

The Rangers clearly aren't a great org at developing talent but I dunno. I think a #1 or #2 overall should be able to thrive pretty much anywhere if they're actually for real.

Like if you took...I dunno...Nico Hischier, who I'd say is one of those 1b type first overalls (aka, not a probable hall of famer but still quite good) I'd say he still turns into something good for NYR.

I just don't see it with Laf. His hockey sense seems good but nothing stands out physically about him in terms of speed, skill, anything. I guess his shot is pretty good.

Kakko impresses me at times but can't seem to put it together offensively.

I will say were I the Rangers I would not just give up on those guys and ship them out though, because there's still a chance they're late bloomers.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Never met Stan but just from listening to him he always seemed genuinely kind. Some people just have that vibe and he was one of them.

Wish I'd had a chance to meet him. He'll definitely be missed.

I will say that I always enjoyed him back in the day and have fond memories. Condolences to friends and family.

Out of respect and what little class I have I will refrain on commenting on his more recent work. But regardless he was an important figure in local sports broadcasting and the Penguins in particular and as such will be missed.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Good management and good luck.

Imagine you tank and you get Lafrenierre and Kakko lol

I think both would have made it if they didn't rush to the NHL. So many prospects get rushed and they need a little more seasoning. Like first 7 games they should have sent them back or let them play a full year in the ahl. They might Sam Bennett it up elsewhere but the Rangers are very stubborn with wanting a prospect they drafted to do well, they'll wait until he's been mentally destroyed just enough to get something of value to say see he sucks.

Look at Lias, Kravtsov, hell go back to Manny Malhotra, a player they basically turned into a 4th liner at best. He was dumped to Dallas and then to Columbus it took him 3 seasons and two teams to finally carve out some respectable path for himself after the damage the Rangers did rushing him.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yeah I think the failures of Lafreniere and Kakko are more due to the Rangers bad management than either of those guys being bad players. I think the Rangers expedited their rebuild way too much by getting Panarin, Fox and Trouba, they needed to take more time to build up a stronger support cast.

They're just going to be the Lundqvist era Rangers all over again. Good but not good enough.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

I wish we had our second overall. I'd offersheet Laferniere. I think that would be a high risk high reward type deal.

I'm talking 4.2 million 1 deal and then work on a 2 or 3 year for 3 million type deal.

 

[Peat]

The Rangers clearly aren't a great org at developing talent but I dunno. I think a #1 or #2 overall should be able to thrive pretty much anywhere if they're actually for real.

Like if you took...I dunno...Nico Hischier, who I'd say is one of those 1b type first overalls (aka, not a probable hall of famer but still quite good) I'd say he still turns into something good for NYR.

I just don't see it with Laf. His hockey sense seems good but nothing stands out physically about him in terms of speed, skill, anything. I guess his shot is pretty good.

Kakko impresses me at times but can't seem to put it together offensively.

I will say were I the Rangers I would not just give up on those guys and ship them out though, because there's still a chance they're late bloomers.

I would love to see a good roundtable discussion from prospect watchers, development guys, and the like about what's got on with them.

Because I do kind of see your point.

But he's spent most of the last three years with Filip Chytil as his C. Why are we expecting a guy to be great with him? There's a fairly noticeable uptick in his scoring when with Zibanejad. He doesn't play PP1. How often do you even see a top 3 guy put in his position? I think there's a ton of orgs that could take him and make him look like a success overnight simply by putting him in their top six.

Not to mention that helping him be better with what he does is why player development is there. I buy that he's an interesting case of evaluation because people mistook a player who was dominant in all facets in junior for a guy who had dominant tools, and missed his dominance came from being very good at everything. But he does have some really good tools for his age. I don't get why they can't get any of them to pop.

 

[Ugene Magic]

I will say that I always enjoyed him back in the day and have fond memories. Condolences to friends and family.

Out of respect and what little class I have I will refrain on commenting on his more recent work. But regardless he was an important figure in local sports broadcasting and the Penguins in particular and as such will be missed.

Didn't realize he had his foot amputated and was battling lung cancer.

RIP Stan, always was a good listening.

 

[Jacob]

What's Koltsov up to?

He's coaching in the KHL.

 

[Ugene Magic]

He's coaching in the KHL.

On how to crash into the boards at 1000 MPH.

 

[mephisto1812]

On how to crash into the boards at 1000 MPH.

That dude could fly... but his hands, my god. He and Fata both.

 

[Pancakes]

I would love to see a good roundtable discussion from prospect watchers, development guys, and the like about what's got on with them.

Because I do kind of see your point.

But he's spent most of the last three years with Filip Chytil as his C. Why are we expecting a guy to be great with him? There's a fairly noticeable uptick in his scoring when with Zibanejad. He doesn't play PP1. How often do you even see a top 3 guy put in his position? I think there's a ton of orgs that could take him and make him look like a success overnight simply by putting him in their top six.

Not to mention that helping him be better with what he does is why player development is there. I buy that he's an interesting case of evaluation because people mistook a player who was dominant in all facets in junior for a guy who had dominant tools, and missed his dominance came from being very good at everything. But he does have some really good tools for his age. I don't get why they can't get any of them to pop.

I dunno, I just think you take most first overalls and plug them anywhere and they'd figure it out.

I fully agree the Rangers suck at player development, but I think someone like Hughes or Hischier or those kinds of guys would make a mark anywhere.

Case in point...the Oilers. The Oilers are practically the worst at player development in the league but the only first overall they managed to bust was Yakupov and tbh I think he busts anywhere. Dude had no brains. Obviously McDavid would succeed anywhere but plug like I dunno RNH or Taylor Hall into the Rangers and I feel like they still become good players there too.

Maybe I'm wrong.

But like I said Rangers would be wise to not give up on those players yet unless they get huge offers. They may still bloom late.