Hahaha, yeah that's not what I meant. When I say "There's more PMDs in the draft every year" I don't mean hypothetically. I mean actually. Look at the amount of PMDs the last 3 years vs. 10 years ago. The skillset is easier to find, which is why (as you mentioned earlier) so many teams are covered on that front. So it's not an apples-to-apples comparison with 1Cs or goalies, which aren't any more plentiful than they were in the past. Which is why for our fanbase there's no rush on accepting Brzustewicz (who I liked and wanted in the 3rd) or Scott Morrow with the Canes fans. There's even more this draft and we have two 2nds. So again, why pay a premium?
Value of: Pavel Buchnevich
- Thread starter JetsFan815
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Hahaha, yeah that's not what I meant. When I say "There's more PMDs in the draft every year" I don't mean hypothetically. I mean actually. Look at the amount of PMDs the last 3 years vs. 10 years ago. The skillset is easier to find, which is why (as you mentioned earlier) so many teams are covered on that front. So it's not an apples-to-apples comparison with 1Cs or goalies, which aren't any more plentiful than they were in the past. Which is why for our fanbase there's no rush on accepting Brzustewicz (who I liked and wanted in the 3rd) or Scott Morrow with the Canes fans. There's even more this draft and we have two 2nds. So again, why pay a premium?
stl76
No. 5 in your programs, No. 1 in your hearts
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Yeah the add to Pettersson would have to be multiple significant pieces and/or a high end prospect like Letterimaki. He wouldn’t be the stand alone center piece IMO.
How many Blues fans need to politely tell you they have zero interest in Hunter B before you stop telling us what our team needs?
Don’t the canucks have to re-sign Pettersson + Hronek and fill multiple roster spots for next season? They are up against the cap this year as well and the OEL buyout starts to hurt next season. How do you purpose fitting in Buchnevich without retention and/or dumping salary?
I don't think the type of player that can lead the OHL in scoring as a defenseman is just available in the 2nd round. It was a crazy value pick by the Canucks at the time and it looks 10x better 6 months later. You can find guys that put up a point per game from the back end but this is literally a historic run. The skillset isn't really easy to find either unless you just have a massive range of what a find is.
Tallying it up there are 9-12 teams I can see either need a PPQB (and a lot more that need a PMD) right now or will in the a couple yrs. And again Brzustewicz is a lottery ticket but the historic season he's having the potential of that translating is immense. I don't think any position other than winger is easy to find players at. And there is nuance to that even. Find high quality RD is very difficult. And as I mentioned in a previous post once they start really tracking as NHL players they're basically never traded.
You'd rather pay a premium for D-Petey. Project as a shut down dman 3rd round pick. I mean that type of player is always available. Unless of course he somehow became like a top pairing guy which is unlikely. And definitely more unlikely than Brzustewicz doing it.
I'm just making my case. You can make yours as well. My opinion is you're asking for a lesser prospect. And I haven't really heard any strong opinions as to why Brz isn't a better fit than D-Petey so I've continued to make the point. It's not like this has any baring on hypothetical reality. If I convince you it doesn't make it likely to happen or something and benefit the team I watch. Im just making the case. That it would seem a better fit for bother sides, from what I can tell, that it be Hunter over Petey. Ultimately I don't care either way from the Canucks perspective.
We would def need to move out Kuzmenko in the deal. If that was directly to the Blues or to another team who knows. They make roughly the same and Kuz's spot would essentially be replaced by Buch so he'd be expendable. I'd rather do that then trade more futures for retention and have more salary to shed in the off season. When you go that far over thats when you start having to pay to shed or giving away top players for free essentially. After this season we'd need to find a way to shed some salary likely as well.
Well what was the asking price for each piece?
My understanding was a 1st and a few prospects for the main pieces, being Buch and Parayko (who I falsely thought had fallen out of favor) was acceptable. I openly will say I don't know how to value Hayes.
The players are mostly to balance cap, but both Myers and Blueger/Cole expire at the end of this season, while Kuzmenko has one more year. Cap is the same this year, but only this year.
Breaking it down:
Brzustewicz, Raty, Myers and a 1st for the retained Buch (the retention and cap is more for Buch, but there is a better prospect added versus the Horvat trade).
Pettersson, Kuzmenko and a 1st for Parayko (or Faulk...but a top six scorer, a prospect and a 1st for a top four D isn't insultingly bad).
Klimovich and one of Cole, Blueger or Suter for Hayes (again, I don't know how to value Hayes, but 10-10-20 isn't a huge downgrade to, say, 5-14-19 from Blueger, and that comes with a prospect).
Is the combination of the three trades/players whats at issue? A negative response is fine, but your reaction seems to imply that there is one solid piece that St Louis would get for these three, or that I am way off value breaking the trades down. Parayko (or Faulk, as pointed out to me being slightly more available) and Hayes not being available is fine, but you're acting like I offered ten 7th round picks, some 25 year old "prospects" that will never make the NHL and cap dumps.
BleedBlue14
UrGeNcY
smallish under-sized offensive defensemen who don’t have exceptional skills (mainly skating) who produce at a high level in juniors in good situations aren’t all that uncommon.
Just my take, but Pettersson seems to be a more stable two-way player who is already playing in a men’s league.
Most of us have soured on offensive defensemen due to our recent viewings of Krug and mainly his contract (and being paired with Faulk) forcing them to play top end minutes. It just doesn’t work all that great unless the player is truly elite
Honestly, he sounds so phenomenal that you shouldn't be talking another team into taking him. I never brought up paying a premium for D Pettersson, that was someone else you were replying to. Nice moving the goal posts on PPQBs to try and add to the argument of scarcity though.
I'd much rather try and make a deal to move up to go after Mews or LSW or whoever falls to the late 1st, top of the 2nd area than bet on Brzustewicz, because it doesn't come at the expense of our most valuable trade piece, and I'm pretty damn sure the rest of the fans you talk to will feel the same way. Just as sure as I am that none of this is gonna get through to you.
The solid asset required in the package deal is your top prospect(Willander). Asking for the Blues top trade chip and top defenseman(Parayko is much more than a top4) isn't going to get done without at least one premium asset. 1st round picks in the 20s aren't premium, Pettersson and Brzustewicz are solid but not premium.
Also, claiming Kuzmenko as a top 6 scorer when he's 12th on Vancouver's current roster in even strength TOI/G is a bit of a stretch.
As an aside to any sort of discussion of Faulk, I'd say there's no chance he'd ever wave to go to a Canadian team based on his opinions of Canada that he's voiced publicly.
We have the best PPQB in the league and a very solid back up already currently. It's not that I wouldn't love to keep Brzuchevicz it's just that I want to improve the team and his skill set isn't as needed on a team that has one Dman on pace for 100 points and another on pace for close to 70. And clearly St Louis needs this player that we need to a lesser degree.
I wish there were a word for this because it happens in sales all the time. You make your pitch. The product literally benefits the customer, makes their life easier, cheaper, whatever and yet somewhere along the line they became suspicious of you because you are helping them so much and literally will go against their own best interest because of it and no amount of logic will ever make them change their mind.
It's basically how HF Boards works. Anyone who suggests anything good about their own players is selling snake oil or trying too hard. And other teams players are all shit or else why would they ever trade them. It's fun.
I didn't move the goal posts at all relax. My point was always PPQB, you made a comment about PMD which is fine to use as well. It literally furthers my case though as there are clearly a lot more spaces on teams for PMD than simply for PPQBs.
You don't want to trade your main trade piece for a piece you need because you will just try to get one in the draft. Like ok. Well what would you like for the prospect part of a potential Buchnevich trade? a piece you already have? haha like what? accumulate piece you don't have is the name of the game.
He's 6' tall. Quinn Hughes is 5'10", Makar and Adam Fox are 5'11". Size is definitely not an issue. Who are these guys you are thinking of when you say that? They were producing at 1.5+ points per game in their D+1 ?
Well ya Parayko somehow fell off a cliff as well which totally sucks. It's gonna be a rough few yrs for the Blues looking at those contracts. As a Canuck fan I feel your pain. Somehow we are good this yr but it was bleak for a while.
I'd be looking to Trade Faulk, Krug, Parayko, Leddy to anyone at 50% retained even. Lean into be being bad for a few yrs. Even consider some buyouts.
I’ll give you…your take, but no Sam I am we do not want green eggs and ham….we are looking for a work pickup truck, not a Kia soul…. We have too many d men under average size 6’1” in our system and under contract. So a slightly sub 6 footer who is decent skater and plays a mainly one dimensional game just is not what we are looking for. A Pettersson or Willander is less of a project with far less swing and miss potential as a top 3-4.
- Feb 12, 2008
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our prospect pool is looking really strong and Thomas, Kyrou and Neighbors will be entering their primes soon. We had 7 players in the WJRs who all played big roles. Things are bleak in the short term, but very bright in the long term. We are looking at another top 10 pick this year and next year for sure. Parayko is still a great defender and will be for many years, we just need to add 3 more top 4 defenders in the next 3-4 years.
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CanuckCity
Registered User
When was the last time he played significant time at Center? Is that something he can still be relied on to do?
Linkens Mastery
Conductor of the TankTown Express
He gets thrown there on and off. He isn't out of place but the Buchnevich-Thomas-Kyrou/Neighbours is too good to split them up for long periods of time.
Ya I am more looking at the potential/ already anchor contracts. Those 4 contracts on the back end as well as Schenn's are scary. Reminds me of the OEL deal in Van. A little less bad on any one player perhaps but have 4-5 of them isn't good. So hard to look at being good when you know you are going to have so much dead money on the books. Hopefully some of those young guys hit though. Def you need a couple more top 10 picks min to really turn it around. Or a few later steals. And maybe even a buyout or two.
Brzustewicz easily has a better chance at being a top 4 dman than Petey. It's funny because Petey is kind of just a guy to us. I mean he has a chance and has some defensive and physical upside but no one in Van is thinking hes a top 4 defenseman. He has almost no projectable offensive upside. It's funny how St Louis fans seem to think he is.
Just to kinda put a bow on this though. What you suggested was not impressive to you in regards to Brzustewicz's season (I think I might be learning to spell his name maybe we shouldn't trade him) has only been done 4 times in the last 25 yrs. Ellis, DeAngelo, Clarke (all top 20 picks). And lets just say it's a decent little list to be on in terms of NHL production.
He's def not one dimensional either. He's obv a stud offensively but he's also elite in transition which is huge in the modern game. He kills penalties as well and his team have one of the best PKs in the OHL, he's +28 also for what it's worth.
You're saying you'd rather have a chance at Carson Soucy or Andrew Peeke (Hyudai Sante Fe) over a chance at DeAngelo or Ellis (Porsche 911)
Majorityof1
Registered User
You missed the part where the person you quoted said "with no stand out skills like skating". You then name some of the best skaters in the game. I have a buddy who is 5'11, never skated or played hockey in his life, but if Makar can be a good D at 5'11, so can he, right? Brzustewicz is far from a bad skater, but it isn't a plus level asset like with the guys you named. And his defensive positioning is horrendous. Our PP issues are not the lack of a QB, but awful schemes in the first part of the season and the lack of a trigger man who can shoot the puck on the wing. Our biggest overall issue is the lack of defensively responsible D, especially on the Left. Yet you keep trying to solve our problems with a defensively inept RD because you saw our PP was bad, never asking why the PP was bad. That is why many Blues fans would prefer Petersson to Brz, defensively responsbile LD. And we are waiting on Snuggerud to come up so we have a NHL caliber one timer for the PP.
Parayko didn't fall off of a cliff. He and Thomas are our 2 best players this year, As I said, we have no D who can handle tough defensive minutes. He gets them all. He had the hardest defensive minutes last year (hardest QoC and 2nd most defensive zone starts, or vice versa I can't remember which he was 2nd in, plus far more ES+PK minutes than anyone close to him on those lists), and he did it with Leddy as his partner. They got caved. His "falling off of a cliff" coincidentally coincided with the Blues losing Pietrangelo to share the load, and Bouwmeester to be his partner. He also had back issues which were repaired, and he is fine now. The back issues may become a problem again as he ages, but he is not off a cliff now. He is one of the best defensive D in the league.
I find it ironic that you complained that HF posters say "other teams players are all shit or else why would they ever trade them", then you do the exact same thing by trashing Parayko. You know what I wish there was a word for? When a slaesperson has no f***ing clue what you need, and keeps telling you what you need anyway to sell something you have no need of. Its super annoying. A good salesman listens to the customer and sells them what they want, not what the salesperson thinks they want or need. The phrase you are looking for when you try to sell someone something they don't want is bad salesman.
- Feb 12, 2008
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when the Blues are ready to compete again in 3 years, those contracts will be gone, either traded with retention or bought out (Krug) , or they’ll be expired. Leddy, Saad and Faulk’s will be expired. A couple bad contracts in a few years (Schenn) won’t sink the team.
We'd rather trade our best trade piece for a player that is difficult for us to find (a surefire top 4 D) than a puck moving D whose defensive game is secondary because, WHETHER YOU WANT TO ADMIT IT OR NOT, that skill set is easier to find year after year in the draft. Does that mean that anyone who profiles like that will work out? No. Does that mean that Brzuchevicz isn't going to meet his ceiling? No. Does leading the OHL in points mean he's going to be a stud NHL player? Also not necessarily. Mobile, offensive-minded D, especially if you're not caught up on size, are going to be pretty easy to find in the top 2 rounds. So easy to find that the teams that have them like the Canes offering Morrow or you offering Hunter without thinking "Man, we'll never be able to replace this guy in our system."
When I said move the goal posts, I mean from saying in your original post that we were only one of about 5 or 6 teams that needed a PPQB to saying that there will be maybe 10 teams needing it in the future. But there's X amount in the draft, X amount in pipelines already. You've seen guys who only profile as PPQBs not have a premium. Gostisbehere, DeAngelo. Granted, DeAngelo has other question marks. We can't pay to give away Krug right now. It entirely speaks to a market on them that doesn't require a premium other than for a known, high-end player which is not what we're getting at present time.
And it's funny because Blues fan after Blues fan after Blues fan will tell you the same thing. We will explain how we got the same conclusion. Show the math. Tell you what we lack, what we need, what we value, what the return on Buch needs to look like. And you'll ignore it while spouting off, unironically, this:
"literally will go against their own best interest because of it and no amount of logic will ever make them change their mind."
It's not that we're naturally distrustful of you and Brzuchevicz, like it's some personal affront.
The need has always been the same. Check the Blues trade thread for months, instead of going around telling fanbases what they REALLY need. Hey, maybe we know what you need better too. You need to get rid of Connor Garland's contract. Maybe you should move his deal with Brzuchevicz. We'll explore other options with Buchnevich.There's a reason we told you to put that coffee down. You ain't ever gonna even get the steak knives.
We'd rather trade our best trade piece for a player that is difficult for us to find (a surefire top 4 D) than a puck moving D whose defensive game is secondary because, WHETHER YOU WANT TO ADMIT IT OR NOT, that skill set is easier to find year after year in the draft. Does that mean that anyone who profiles like that will work out? No. Does that mean that Brzuchevicz isn't going to meet his ceiling? No. Does leading the OHL in points mean he's going to be a stud NHL player? Also not necessarily. Mobile, offensive-minded D, especially if you're not caught up on size, are going to be pretty easy to find in the top 2 rounds. So easy to find that the teams that have them like the Canes offering Morrow or you offering Hunter without thinking "Man, we'll never be able to replace this guy in our system."
When I said move the goal posts, I mean from saying in your original post that we were only one of about 5 or 6 teams that needed a PPQB to saying that there will be maybe 10 teams needing it in the future. But there's X amount in the draft, X amount in pipelines already. You've seen guys who only profile as PPQBs not have a premium. Gostisbehere, DeAngelo. Granted, DeAngelo has other question marks. We can't pay to give away Krug right now. It entirely speaks to a market on them that doesn't require a premium other than for a known, high-end player which is not what we're getting at present time.
And it's funny because Blues fan after Blues fan after Blues fan will tell you the same thing. We will explain how we got the same conclusion. Show the math. Tell you what we lack, what we need, what we value, what the return on Buch needs to look like. And you'll ignore it while spouting off, unironically, this:
"literally will go against their own best interest because of it and no amount of logic will ever make them change their mind."
It's not that we're naturally distrustful of you and Brzuchevicz, like it's some personal affront.
We already have two of them in our lineup who are under 26. But before we got Hronek it was a huge team need. Somehow we pulled of an incredible trade. So while offensive dmen are available you're downplaying the talent of Brzustewicz. What he's don't has been done by 4 guys in 25 yrs. All top 20 picks, two studly nhl careers and one of the top d propsects in all of hockey. It's a classic case of "your offering this guy, he must not be good".
I whimsically dropped a number 5-6. Then I even mentioned I looked into it closer. And you thought I was moving to goal posts haha you've been overly wary the whole time. The reality is Krug is untradeable because of his age and contract. When he was 26 and made 5 mil yr he was worth a lot. And prob unobtainable. But the big problem with your theory is you can't trade for them once they hit. They're traded once every 5 yrs maybe and you wont wanna give up what it costs to get them. Lottery tickets likely Brzu are hugely valuable.
If Brzu goes 1st round last yr which he clearly would if the draft was this yr you'd want him. That is basically it. One of you is literally saying theyd want D Petey instead ahah. He's a stay at home dman who projects as a bottom pairing. That is silly. Im pointing that out.
And you can certainly have an opinion of what the Canucks need, why not?
He's an excellent skater haha. Elite scorer. Elite in transition. Not small. By all accounts not even bad defensively which is the assumption for offensive dmen. Fox isn't a good skater. Brzu is a plus skater for sure. Not Hughes or Makar sure. Your PP sucks but it's not the PPQB its something else. And also the PPQB doesn't score much and is ageing and injury prone.
By all means Petey is far more attainable. If you prefer him it's funny to me because he doesn't project as a top 4 dman. I've been pointing that out.
Fair enough. I remember Parayko literally seemed like he could be one of the best dmen in the league and that didn't really happen.
I think the analogy went over your head. And a bad salesman would just sell you what you think you want especially if they know a difference product would be much better for you.
It's like ya we have the 3rd worst PP in the league but it isn't because we don't have a bonifide high end offensive dman on the team, we definitely do not want or need that. It's everyone else. Even if you though Krug was good hes ageing. You wouldn't want an offensive dman prospect to replace him one day? I'm still not getting an answer on that.
Linkens Mastery
Conductor of the TankTown Express
We can worry about our PP in a few years when it actually matters. We need to make the defensive side of our NHL defense actually NHL-level.
Seems to me there really isn't a deal to be made between Vancouver and St. Louis.
Seems to me there really isn't a deal to be made between Vancouver and St. Louis.
Majorityof1
Registered User
I don't want Petterson, at least not for Buch. I said why some Blues fans prefer him. Stylistically, he is more of a need.
Our PP is bad because our scheme was awful and we had no trigger man, We had our RH shooter on the right wall and our left handed shooter on the left wall for 30+ games. We literally had nobody set in a position for a quick shot. We had no net front presence either and we were deathly afraid to shoot it, passing it around and around. When Berube was fired, we hired Brad Richards as a remote consultant on our PP. It has been much better since as we are putting guys in position to shoot. We are 10 for 42 since then, and 6 for 17 on the last 5. So the 23.8% since Berube was fired would put us at 10th in the league. We were 9% before Berube, and 23.8% after.
Maybe it wasn't the need for a better PP QB and was a scheme thing like was said by the guy who has watched every single minute of Blues hockey for the past several years (me), and not the guy who looked at stats on NHL.com for 30 seconds (you).
You missed the point of my counter analogy. You don't know what we need. You are a used car salesman trying to sell a 2-seater sports car to a dad with 2 toddlers and a baby. You didn't bother asking what he was wanted or what his needs were. You took a cursory look and decided for yourself. You are too arrogant to listen when he tells you what he needs.
stl76
No. 5 in your programs, No. 1 in your hearts
- Jul 2, 2015
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JFC this is still going on?
Hunter B is not wanted. St. Louis asks for Willander + 1st for Buchnevich or Vancouver can go pound sand.
Hunter B is not wanted. St. Louis asks for Willander + 1st for Buchnevich or Vancouver can go pound sand.
