Player Discussion: Patrik Laine IVever: a new hope? (Laine out of PAP, trade request still stands)

[BB88]

Obviously.
Laine just doesn’t seem like an 8+ million dollar player.

Current rate for young superstars is 12+.

If Laine gives you 70-80 points u9 is fair

 

[Fro]

 

[CBJx614]

Laine isn't PPG, not good enough, get that scrub outta here.

 

[NotCommitted]

Covid-what?? 19-20-21-22?? Or what variant?? Runny nose? Does he need his “taste” intact to play hockey??

Get a grip. I know you don't like the guy but you're getting completely ridiculous.

I don't know what their current protocols are but I would imagine if you have symptoms you get tested and quarantined until you no longer have symptoms and test clear (more than once probably)

You should still take covid seriously, even though the current variants aren't usually that serious especially for vaccinated people and it's getting more to where it's just another flu, studies suggest the risk of getting long term effects get higher the more times you get sick with it. You don't want a roster full of long covid patients

 

[CBJWerenski8]

Just a warning, this is not a COVID discussion spot. Discuss patrik Laine, not the NHL covid protocols.

 

[VT]

He had unforced injuries this year, not chronic. Besides, every player has a different time to get in shape.

Btw I think Chinny and him have excellent chemistry. No only find a center between them because I'm not sure whether Roslo is traded.

Dracula hated the cross and garlic, @thebus88 hates Patrick Laine.

 

[DoingItCoolKiwi]

Obviously.
Laine just doesn’t seem like an 8+ million dollar player.

Laine is a youngish ~ppg player who out scored entire CBJ roster by like 20 points last season. That and his past production and unique shot would have earned him +8m in any team in the current market.

'He doens't seem' like a +8m player' is a very odd comment to me. Guys like Crosby and Draisaitl are not 8m players. They are +12m players stuck on a deal that was signed a long time ago. Them having cheap contracts has zero effect on how good Laine's contract is.

 

[thebus88]

Dracula hated the cross and garlic, @thebus88 hates Patrick Laine.

I “hate” the players that don’t actually improve the CBJ team and improve their chances in winning hockey games, regularly and consistently. Laine could have “fit” with the CBJ in a (“on an island”) Rick Nash type role, or with the responsible Foligno/Dubinsky/Jones group, either before or after Panarin.

Their cap hits, excessive (and favorable) “usage”/ice time, how the majority of fans look at them, and most importantly, how they carry themselves and PLAY on the ice, are all the things I take into account.

The CBJ aren’t automatically better with Laine, the same way they weren’t automatically better at the end of CBJ Rick Nash (instead of 2 “lesser” centers), or after adding Gaudreau this year.

Looking at Laine/Gaudreau as a “lock” to have great chemistry and mesh well was also something the Lazy Laine fan club was clearly wrong about. Looking at it as, big shooter and small passer, isn’t even an EA Sports level prediction, we’re talking NES Ice Hockey. I don’t like how EITHER guy plays the game, and that problem is compounded by having them both looked at and paid as our #1-2/“go to” guys.

The problem with how those 2 guys play is compounded by how almost all of our younger players (with “elite” potential) all play the game. Interestingly enough, it seems most are worried or focused on if the young guys can build or advance their games in the near future, while seemingly giving (the highly paid) Laine and Gaudreau a pass for the same questions/issues that still exist within their games. What do the “vets” on this team do to take the pressure off the rookies and extremely young players??

Wisniewski/Wennberg/Merzlikins (and other past “lesser” names) and now Laine (and yes, Peeke/Gavrikov/Kuraly) all fit into this category of players who in my mind could have their money spent and ice time given to a large number of other players, and the team would be better off.

 

[VT]

I “hate” the players that don’t actually improve the CBJ team and improve their chances in winning hockey games, regularly and consistently. Laine could have “fit” with the CBJ in a (“on an island”) Rick Nash type role, or with the responsible Foligno/Dubinsky/Jones group, either before or after Panarin.

Their cap hits, excessive (and favorable) “usage”/ice time, how the majority of fans look at them, and most importantly, how they carry themselves and PLAY on the ice, are all the things I take into account.

The CBJ aren’t automatically better with Laine, the same way they weren’t automatically better at the end of CBJ Rick Nash (instead of 2 “lesser” centers), or after adding Gaudreau this year.

Looking at Laine/Gaudreau as a “lock” to have great chemistry and mesh well was also something the Lazy Laine fan club was clearly wrong about. Looking at it as, big shooter and small passer, isn’t even an EA Sports level prediction, we’re talking NES Ice Hockey. I don’t like how EITHER guy plays the game, and that problem is compounded by having them both looked at and paid as our #1-2/“go to” guys.

The problem with how those 2 guys play is compounded by how almost all of our younger players (with “elite” potential) all play the game. Interestingly enough, it seems most are worried or focused on if the young guys can build or advance their games in the near future, while seemingly giving (the highly paid) Laine and Gaudreau a pass for the same questions/issues that still exist within their games. What do the “vets” on this team do to take the pressure off the rookies and extremely young players??

Wisniewski/Wennberg/Merzlikins (and other past “lesser” names) and now Laine (and yes, Peeke/Gavrikov/Kuraly) all fit into this category of players who in my mind could have their money spent and ice time given to a large number of other players, and the team would be better off.

If you'll notice, I was one of those who wanted Laine and Gaudreau to play in different lines. It was also clear to me that Laine didn't need players like Voracek was last season, he played best with Nyquist and Jenner, in where he my run the line, Gus and Boone were doing a lot of "little things". So do they now. I'd argue he has great chemistry with Chimakhov. As soon as they put them together it was obvious.

 

[Marioesque]

I “hate” the players that don’t actually improve the CBJ team and improve their chances in winning hockey games, regularly and consistently. Laine could have “fit” with the CBJ in a (“on an island”) Rick Nash type role, or with the responsible Foligno/Dubinsky/Jones group, either before or after Panarin.

Their cap hits, excessive (and favorable) “usage”/ice time, how the majority of fans look at them, and most importantly, how they carry themselves and PLAY on the ice, are all the things I take into account.

The CBJ aren’t automatically better with Laine, the same way they weren’t automatically better at the end of CBJ Rick Nash (instead of 2 “lesser” centers), or after adding Gaudreau this year.

Looking at Laine/Gaudreau as a “lock” to have great chemistry and mesh well was also something the Lazy Laine fan club was clearly wrong about. Looking at it as, big shooter and small passer, isn’t even an EA Sports level prediction, we’re talking NES Ice Hockey. I don’t like how EITHER guy plays the game, and that problem is compounded by having them both looked at and paid as our #1-2/“go to” guys.

The problem with how those 2 guys play is compounded by how almost all of our younger players (with “elite” potential) all play the game. Interestingly enough, it seems most are worried or focused on if the young guys can build or advance their games in the near future, while seemingly giving (the highly paid) Laine and Gaudreau a pass for the same questions/issues that still exist within their games. What do the “vets” on this team do to take the pressure off the rookies and extremely young players??

Wisniewski/Wennberg/Merzlikins (and other past “lesser” names) and now Laine (and yes, Peeke/Gavrikov/Kuraly) all fit into this category of players who in my mind could have their money spent and ice time given to a large number of other players, and the team would be better off.

Yeah we know you feel that way. The evidence, actual on ice performance says your feelings are wrong, but it doesn't matter to you because you have your own system of player evaluation that emphasizes how you feel about a player. And most others evaluate with emphasis on real world results.

You're not going to convince anyone to irrationally feel the same way you do, and to let that cloud our own judgment.

 

[thebus88]

Actual on ice performance?? The problem is literally that some of you care only about Patrik Laine and his goals/points, and NOT the TEAM. We’re battling for 1st overall, that’s where Laine has “led” this team to. THAT is my evidence.

Possibly the highest cap hit in the league, for a player that has to be “sheltered” and that a team has to work extremely hard to find players that work playing with him, and he doesn’t just make every line he plays on BETTER, like almost every other player with a similar cap hit.

If he wasn’t such a SHIT hockey player, he wouldn’t need to have to play with an “unskilled” Boone Jenner. Some of you like to claim Jenner HURTS his numbers, when it’s the farthest thing from the truth, especially when throwing goals against in the mix.

All some of you care about are his individual offensive statistics, yet IGNORE what he is paid and that he still must be set up in the easiest position on the team to succeed, and he’s still NOT doing that.

Not only that, but, you guys continue to look at how many points he puts up, in an outdated sense. Almost 50 players (49) in the league have a PPG pace. Laine ranks #103 in points per game.

You talk about his “on ice” GF/GA numbers as if he doesn’t impact anything else, or that anything else matters or impacts the game. He’s on the ice for only around 1/3 of the game at most. It’s almost like OVERPAYING for him impacts the money that can be spent on other players to make the team better when he is not on the ice.

Also, 1 PP goal. I’d also be interested in his “penalties drawn” number, in relation to other “superstars”. I’m willing to bet it’s much lower due to his lack of intensity and effort. And it’s everyone’s fault OTHER than the superstar, correct??

My “system” for player evaluation is pretty simple, does Laine help the team win games or not?? Scoring irrelevant goals/points at IRRELEVANT times, proves NOTHING about his actual value or worth to a WINNING hockey team.

 

[thebus88]

Yeah we know you feel that way. The evidence, actual on ice performance says your feelings are wrong, but it doesn't matter to you because you have your own system of player evaluation that emphasizes how you feel about a player. And most others evaluate with emphasis on real world results.

You're not going to convince anyone to irrationally feel the same way you do, and to let that cloud our own judgment.

Almost 50 players (49) in the league have a PPG pace. Laine ranks #103 in points per game.

1-0-3

Please explain……

 

[stevo61]

Actual on ice performance?? The problem is literally that some of you care only about Patrik Laine and his goals/points, and NOT the TEAM. We’re battling for 1st overall, that’s where Laine has “led” this team to. THAT is my evidence.

Possibly the highest cap hit in the league, for a player that has to be “sheltered” and that a team has to work extremely hard to find players that work playing with him, and he doesn’t just make every line he plays on BETTER, like almost every other player with a similar cap hit.

If he wasn’t such a SHIT hockey player, he wouldn’t need to have to play with an “unskilled” Boone Jenner. Some of you like to claim Jenner HURTS his numbers, when it’s the farthest thing from the truth, especially when throwing goals against in the mix.

All some of you care about are his individual offensive statistics, yet IGNORE what he is paid and that he still must be set up in the easiest position on the team to succeed, and he’s still NOT doing that.

Not only that, but, you guys continue to look at how many points he puts up, in an outdated sense. Almost 50 players (49) in the league have a PPG pace. Laine ranks #103 in points per game.

You talk about his “on ice” GF/GA numbers as if he doesn’t impact anything else, or that anything else matters or impacts the game. He’s on the ice for only around 1/3 of the game at most. It’s almost like OVERPAYING for him impacts the money that can be spent on other players to make the team better when he is not on the ice.

Also, 1 PP goal. I’d also be interested in his “penalties drawn” number, in relation to other “superstars”. I’m willing to bet it’s much lower due to his lack of intensity and effort. And it’s everyone’s fault OTHER than the superstar, correct??

My “system” for player evaluation is pretty simple, does Laine help the team win games or not?? Scoring irrelevant goals/points at IRRELEVANT times, proves NOTHING about his actual value or worth to a WINNING hockey team.

I dont need an essay but to you what is the list of players on the roster that actively helps this team win.

 

[thebus88]

I dont need an essay but to you what is the list of players on the roster that actively helps this team win.

“Small” essay, then list. I’ll tone it down. The real problem to me is the overall breakdown of both the offense AND defense. I think many people are looking too much at the players/pieces/“bricks” individually, when we need to be looking more to the “big picture” of the team. We have players that could help other teams win, just not necessarily help this current CBJ team.

As I’ve said, and it gets ignored, Laine could have worked on a past CBJ team, I just don’t think it’s this team, especially with him and Gaudreau as a 1-2 punch, and with more offensive minded players waiting in the wings, and ON the wings.

I‘ve heard plenty of others refer to him as a “last piece of a puzzle” type player. The problem is that type of player isn’t worth what he is being paid, and this current CBJ team is now SO FAR from being that type of team.

Stand by for the list. Again, it’s not that simple, as in, helps or doesn’t help. There’s a certain roster breakdown that I believe is needed and certain roles that need to be filled by more than “adequate” players, and also other roles or types of players that need to be limited. There’s also somebody like Sillinger, who’s not “actively” helping anything, but, almost certainly will in the near future.

With the way the team is built, I can say none of Werenski/Gaudreau/Laine “actively helps the team win”, but, I understand that’s not the exercise/post you want from me, I just wanted/needed to explain myself, because I get sick of the overly simplistic “love”/“hate” responses to why I feel a certain way about certain players.

 

[stevo61]

“Small” essay, then list. I’ll tone it down. The real problem to me is the overall breakdown of both the offense AND defense. I think many people are looking too much at the players/pieces/“bricks” individually, when we need to be looking more to the “big picture” of the team. We have players that could help other teams win, just not necessarily help this current CBJ team.

As I’ve said, and it gets ignored, Laine could have worked on a past CBJ team, I just don’t think it’s this team, especially with him and Gaudreau as a 1-2 punch, and with more offensive minded players waiting in the wings, and ON the wings.

I‘ve heard plenty of others refer to him as a “last piece of a puzzle” type player. The problem is that type of player isn’t worth what he is being paid, and this current CBJ team is now SO FAR from being that type of team.

Stand by for the list. Again, it’s not that simple, as in, helps or doesn’t help. There’s a certain roster breakdown that I believe is needed and certain roles that need to be filled by more than “adequate” players, and also other roles or types of players that need to be limited. There’s also somebody like Sillinger, who’s not “actively” helping anything, but, almost certainly will in the near future.

With the way the team is built, I can say none of Werenski/Gaudreau/Laine “actively helps the team win”, but, I understand that’s not the exercise/post you want from me, I just wanted/needed to explain myself, because I get sick of the overly simplistic “love”/“hate” responses to why I feel a certain way about certain players.

But on the flip side its harder to find the elite talent than it is to fill in the rest (Not looking to start a debate on where Laine falls into this). Im not going to compare our skill to Tampa but we are almost building in a similar way. I know we dont have guys like Hedman and Vasi but my point being they built a team with elite skill, dominated the regular season, got embarrased and thrn paid premiums to get the heart and soul guys. The Rangers have almost followed a similar path aswell.

I can still see a way for Jarmo to salvage that process. If we come out of this season with any of Bedard/Fantilli/Carlsson we have almost every important position covered. Thats when I think he should start (or sooner if the right moves present themselves) looking for his Coleman/Blais/Goodrow/Hagel type moves. Not banking on it but if Tex does come back paired with a healthy Danforth we start adding back to a higher compete culture before making any moves. A potential deal that has its risks but the reward would be huge is looking at someone like Meier. Money may not work but its just an example that these guys are out there at any quality of player.

Teams like Carolina who many here envy cant make it out of the 2nd round and the 1 time they did they got swept. A big part is not having that Panarin type game breaker.

 

[Marioesque]

Almost 50 players (49) in the league have a PPG pace. Laine ranks #103 in points per game.

1-0-3

Please explain……

How many in the Jackets have been better?

He's clearly the best , most positively productive player in the team for last season and this, when he's healthy. I would understand the injury argument against him, but not your feelings based arguments that ignore any real world context.

Once the surrounding team gets better, also Laine's production goes up. At the moment the team is a bit easy to plan against because you only have to be really concerned when 13 or 29 are out there, easier to defend against than a deep team.

And yeah, it's only reasonable to look at his individual production and how he affects the on ice production of the team. Laine is the best in the team 5 on 5, the team gets a better goal differential with him on the ice than anyone else. Thats how he is helping the team win, by winning his time on ice.

You have some magical "how does it affect team winning" which is based on nothing but your feelings. In your weird world it's Laine's fault if the other lines aren't winning their matchups even if he is winning his. That makes no sense to me. It's a fabrication. Facts show he has the biggest impact positively to winning, yet you focus solely on him when you would have a better case picking ANY other name in the roster to pick on, all of them have been less productive.

Laine makes a few hundred K more than Voracek. Last season Voracek made millions more. Haven't seen you rail against Jake much, you haven't made him the hill to die on. And he has been objectively about 1/3 of Laine value.

 

[Byrral]

I “hate” the players that don’t actually improve the CBJ team and improve their chances in winning hockey games, regularly and consistently. Laine could have “fit” with the CBJ in a (“on an island”) Rick Nash type role, or with the responsible Foligno/Dubinsky/Jones group, either before or after Panarin.

Are you trying to attempt to "could have fit" Patrik Laine into the leadership role of a Foligno/Dubinsky/Jones? That's not a fair example. Laine can be compared in his role to a Nash or Panarin (regardless of success) but not to those others. Laine can have a role with this team and help the team win hockey games without being a Dubinsky type locker room leader. Not every player is like that. He's a goal scorer, not captain material. Laine also seems to like playing in Columbus and for our team. Panarin loves playing in NY. The rest of those other people have been gone for a couple of years now. Their individual departures have contibuted both positively and negatively to where this organization currently stands. And if I remember correctly none of those people helped the CBJ win a cup. This current roster is a long way from being a competitor or to be able to predict who will be here or not in the next 3-5 years. Laine could be part of that....or not.

Edit: I mis-interpreted your quote after I re-read it. Laine may have been more sheltered on the team with those leaders but it's not a guarantee that he would thrive in that type of team play either. He's not a very good player in a dump chase and grind game.

Looking at Laine/Gaudreau as a “lock” to have great chemistry and mesh well was also something the Lazy Laine fan club was clearly wrong about. Looking at it as, big shooter and small passer, isn’t even an EA Sports level prediction, we’re talking NES Ice Hockey. I don’t like how EITHER guy plays the game, and that problem is compounded by having them both looked at and paid as our #1-2/“go to” guys.

The initial vision of a Laine and Gaudreau pairing seemed like a "lock" made in heaven but it didn't guarantee success and I don't remember anyone on this board posting as such. It was a hope and that hasn't clicked for many reasons. But it also doesn't mean that they will never find chemistry together or that they can't both be on this team playing on different lines and contributing toward winning hockey games. Everything isn't so absolute as you make it because of a half year of suckatude.

You and I agree that Jarmo has put together a horrible mix of players to make up the team this year. Where we mostly disagree is on the direction of the team and what players should be on the roster going forward. A team full of Laines is not going to win a cup but neither is a team full of Dubinskys.

Wisniewski/Wennberg/Merzlikins (and other past “lesser” names) and now Laine (and yes, Peeke/Gavrikov/Kuraly) all fit into this category of players who in my mind could have their money spent and ice time given to a large number of other players, and the team would be better off.

You continue to bring up and praise your favorites from the past like Panarin/Jones/Torts over current or former players/coaches you dislike. I liked those people as well but none of your favorites wanted to be in the CBJ organization anymore and wanted out. They have all been gone for a couple years now and their departures were a contibuting factors to the current state of the CBJ both in negative and positive ways.

Whether Laine remains on this team long term or not is up to the people who are currently in charge of putting this roster together. I am losing faith and my patience is running out on whether this current leadership team are the group to be putting next years team together.

Finally Merzlikins = Korpisalo = Tarasov. None of them have been great and they all get caught way out of position at times. The goalie position needs to be re-examined for the future.

 

[Farmboy Patty]

If he wasn’t such a SHIT hockey player, he wouldn’t need to have to play with an “unskilled” Boone Jenner.

If there ever was any doubt about it, you just confirmed your ridiculous hate against Laine, who, as many here have repeatedly pointed out has a winning effect for this team when he’s on the ice. It has been backed with irrefutable stats (facts) and yet somehow in your alternate universe he is a a SHIT player and one of the reasons why this team sucks

I keep reading your posts in this topic for pure entertainment since they bring out a chuckle in this time of rooting for one of the worst teams in the league.

 

[Cowumbus]

If there ever was any doubt about it, you just confirmed your ridiculous hate against Laine, who, as many here have repeatedly pointed out has a winning effect for this team when he’s on the ice. It has been backed with irrefutable stats (facts) and yet somehow in your alternate universe he is a a SHIT player and one of the reasons why this team sucks

Numbers can say whatever you want. 4-15-1 with Laine in the lineup this year. 7-7-1 without him.

 

[DoingItCoolKiwi]

Numbers can say whatever you want. 4-15-1 with Laine in the lineup this year. 7-7-1 without him.

There has been similar stats running around twitter about Penguins seasons when Malkin or Crosby is injured and maybe even Oilers seasons when McDavid was injured. I'm not 100% about McD but the point is that this happens frequently with world class players getting injured and team doing better while theyre injured.

It's just not a good argument because the sample is so small and it's very heavily effected by luck, form (especially goalie), opponent strength, and a million other things which the player doesnt have an effect on

 

[thebus88]

It's just not a good argument because the sample is so small and it's very heavily effected by luck, form (especially goalie), opponent strength, and a million other things which the player doesnt have an effect on

With this “on ice” Laine stat, people are trying to portray that he has an impact on every goal the CBJ score while he is on the ice, and that simply is not true.

 

[Farmboy Patty]

With this “on ice” Laine stat, people are trying to portray that he has an impact on every goal the CBJ score while he is on the ice, and that simply is not true.

I can’t recall ever reading such a post by anyone, but feel free to quote if you have any on your mind.

The fact is that team has outscored the opponents when Laine has been on the ice. Maybe he’s just a lucky charm that makes his teammates on the ice perform better? Or, mayybeeee he actually has this positive effect by being a very good hockey player? You already told us that he’s a SHIT player, so any logical reasoning will probably fly over your head while you’re working on your next shitpost about the shit player Laine…

 

[VT]

Numbers can say whatever you want. 4-15-1 with Laine in the lineup this year. 7-7-1 without him.

It isn't too fair. Don't forget he was injured, than again injured. After injures every player needs a time to return his shape. Everyone more/less. Also don't forget to play goalies.

 

[Viqsi]

Stand by for the list.

Genuinely still interested in this, by the way.

 

[Halberdier]

Genuinely still interested in this, by the way.

There are a lot of ways to construct such list. Here are all Blue Jackets with at least 200 minutes 5-on-5 TOI this season, sorted by their relative GF%. Most notable is the rise of Jack Roslovic from having really crappy stats (and play) earlier on the season, but since he got a confidence boost playing with Laine and having that 4 point game, he has been able to elevate his stats back into more reasonable level.

Btw. rookie Marchenko would be on top of the list, but his TOI is still only 1/3...1/2 of others, so he is omitted for now, for having only 144 minutes TOI.

For sure, this list is not something @thebus88 would ever post and I am also interested that what players in his opinion do affect positively for winning on this team. Also this is only about 5-on-5.