Player Discussion: Patrik Laine IVever: a new hope? (Laine out of PAP, trade request still stands)

[nippanappa]

Have been disappointed with Laine after coming back from the latest injury, even with 4 goals. Early season signs of improved and more dynamic skating seems to be completely gone with last two games.

It's somewhat frustrating to watch him try to challenge defensemen with his current speed. Majority of times, he seems to run himself out of options and force his "go-to deke" which rarely seems to work. And even more frustrating to see him not shoot once he finally gets some space.

I wonder if some of these injuries still affect him?

 

[BB88]

Have been disappointed with Laine after coming back from the latest injury, even with 4 goals. Early season signs of improved and more dynamic skating seems to be completely gone with last two games.

It's somewhat frustrating to watch him try to challenge defensemen with his current speed. Majority of times, he seems to run himself out of options and force his "go-to deke" which rarely seems to work. And even more frustrating to see him not shoot once he finally gets some space.

I wonder if some of these injuries still affect him?

He has a high ankle sprain injury.

That’s painfull and annoying to play through

 

[Crede777]

Have been disappointed with Laine after coming back from the latest injury, even with 4 goals. Early season signs of improved and more dynamic skating seems to be completely gone with last two games.

It's somewhat frustrating to watch him try to challenge defensemen with his current speed. Majority of times, he seems to run himself out of options and force his "go-to deke" which rarely seems to work. And even more frustrating to see him not shoot once he finally gets some space.

I wonder if some of these injuries still affect him?

He is coming back from a high ankle sprain. That would affect any player's skating and explosiveness.

That said, he has 4 goals in 4 games. Laine isn't the problem here.

 

[thebus88]

He is coming back from a high ankle sprain. That would affect any player's skating and explosiveness.

That said, he has 4 goals in 4 games. Laine isn't the problem here.

At some point you guys will realize that goals forward has NOTHING to do with the problem and that it also can’t be used as a reason why a guy can’t be seen as s problem.

Laine is the only guy I’ve seen with a top cap hit in CBJ history to get absolved of any guilt for why the team is so bad, and he’s been apart of 2-3 years that have been as bad as almost any year, going back to actual expansion.

Goals and points mean nothing. WINS and LOSSES are everything.

There’s way more wrong with this team than Larsen and Gudbranson.

The Laine era will end in him traded for a center/defenseman that is PERCEIVED as being worse than Laine.

 

[Crede777]

At some point you guys will realize that goals forward has NOTHING to do with the problem and that it also can’t be used as a reason why a guy can’t be seen as s problem.

Laine is the only guy I’ve seen with a top cap hit in CBJ history to get absolved of any guilt for why the team is so bad, and he’s been apart of 2-3 years that have been as bad as almost any year, going back to actual expansion.

Goals and points mean nothing. WINS and LOSSES are everything.

There’s way more wrong with this team than Larsen and Gudbranson.

The Laine era will end in him traded for a center/defenseman that is PERCEIVED as being worse than Laine.

There's plenty wrong with this team. It just isn't the wingers to be honest. Unfortunately, wingers are the least impactful position.

 

[thebus88]

There's plenty wrong with this team. It just isn't the wingers to be honest. Unfortunately, wingers are the least impactful position.

The highest paid player(s) are absolutely a problem.

He (and his fans) want him to be the “face of the franchise”. Here it is. Jarmo has made so many terrible contract/roster decisions in the last few years it’s ridiculous.

And I’m completely convinced he was pressured subconsciously by the VOCAL AND IGNORANT fans who wanted to change the entire philosophy that brought this franchise SUCCESS for the only time in team history.

Give me mediocrity and the wins that come along with it, over superstar Laine, cool goalie names, and fashion shows!!

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

There's plenty wrong with this team. It just isn't the wingers to be honest. Unfortunately, wingers are the least impactful position.

That the wingers - one in particular - are having the least impact is part of the point of the post you re replying to, I think.

 

[VT]

At some point you guys will realize that goals forward has NOTHING to do with the problem and that it also can’t be used as a reason why a guy can’t be seen as s problem.

Laine is the only guy I’ve seen with a top cap hit in CBJ history to get absolved of any guilt for why the team is so bad, and he’s been apart of 2-3 years that have been as bad as almost any year, going back to actual expansion.

Goals and points mean nothing. WINS and LOSSES are everything.

There’s way more wrong with this team than Larsen and Gudbranson.

The Laine era will end in him traded for a center/defenseman that is PERCEIVED as being worse than Laine.

You know I often agree with you, but you have pretty selective rating sometimes. Bjorkie was the best forward for you, although, as his Seattle play confirmed, his level is the 3th line. Forchecking and playing at the the boards isn't everything. You keep blame Laine, although he was one of the guys who led the team while not playing with TOP players. Btw, after his first season the fans blamed him. Of course he has weakness but people here wrote about them so I don't see any reason to reply it.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

Give me mediocrity and the wins that come along with it,

I don’t think that’s how mediocrity works

 

[thebus88]

You know I often agree with you, but you have pretty selective rating sometimes. Bjorkie was the best forward for you, although, as his Seattle play confirmed, his level is the 3th line. Forchecking and playing at the the boards isn't everything. You keep blame Laine, although he was one of the guys who led the team while not playing with TOP players. Btw, after his first season the fans blamed him. Of course he has weakness but people here wrote about them so I don't see any reason to reply it.

VT you are completely obsessed with both Laine and Bjorkstrand.

They are different players and bring different things. “Forechecking” and “playing the boards” is NOT what Bjorkstrand brought to the team. He was a GREAT shooter/goal scorer who ALSO did those things more consistently than many offensive players of the same quality/ability.

While Laine s a better pure shooter than most NHL players, he SIGNIFICANTLY LACKS SO MANY OTHER THINGS, whether in relation to Bjorkstrand, ACTUAL SUPERSTARS, or middling grinder 3rd-4th line guys.

Laine doesn’t do the things needed to play up to his “potential”. Like Roslovic, at some point, the “potential” should be seen as unattainable.

All some of you care about is fantasy stats. The record of SEA this year and the records of many “Bjorkstrand led”- PLAYOFF BOUND CBJ teams, is not a coincidence, as is the play and overall health of “Laine led” teams, as shown over MULTIPLE TEAMS.

 

[thebus88]

I don’t think that’s how mediocrity works

The point/joke is that I HATE all the IDIOTS who called all the guaranteed playoff CBJ teams (and HOW they played) MEDIOCRE year after year.

Congrats!!

Doesn’t get much more EXCITING than Tage Thompson!! Oh wait, other than Laine!!

 

[VT]

VT you are completely obsessed with both Laine and Bjorkstrand.

They are different players and bring different things. “Forechecking” and “playing the boards” is NOT what Bjorkstrand brought to the team. He was a GREAT shooter/goal scorer who ALSO did those things more consistently than many offensive players of the same quality/ability.

While Laine s a better pure shooter than most NHL players, he SIGNIFICANTLY LACKS SO MANY OTHER THINGS, whether in relation to Bjorkstrand, ACTUAL SUPERSTARS, or middling grinder 3rd-4th line guys.

Laine doesn’t do the things needed to play up to his “potential”. Like Roslovic, at some point, the “potential” should be seen as unattainable.

All some of you care about is fantasy stats. The record of SEA this year and the records of many “Bjorkstrand led”- PLAYOFF BOUND CBJ teams, is not a coincidence, as is the play and overall health of “Laine led” teams, as shown over MULTIPLE TEAMS.

I'm not against Bjorkie, I never considered trading him (well, only when I wanted to tease you and @majormajor ), what happened was quite an unpleasant shock for me. Also you know damn well that I was one of those who said his horrendous +/- meant nothing.
It's just that you keep failing to notice that Laine is improving in other aspects of the game. Besides he isn't only a sniper anymore but he's better in backchecking for example. I only used Bjorkie as an example of your selectivity.
Play-off?

 

[Viqsi]

I don’t think that’s how mediocrity works

It's not, but the Tortorella era was frequently referred to as "mediocrity" by folks who wanted us to be Tampa Bay 2.0 (the 2019 edition, not the one that actually shaped up and won Cups), so I think he's using the terms interchangably.

 

[Marioesque]

The highest paid player(s) are absolutely a problem.

Haven't seen you railing against Johnny Hockey in any similar fashion and he makes more.

Laine lost the puck last night and caused a goal against. He collided with Peeke but it's still his puck so his fault. He also scored 2. There was 8 other goals against that Laine didn't cause or hardly even was on the ice for.

Maybe your expectation of his salary is that he also successfully coaches the other players to not make mistakes?

 

[VT]

How can we talk about a team that can not only play in the PO but also be successful if the rebuild isn't over?
The centers are still young, with Kent Johnson playing winger. Boone Jenner, who would be more ideal on the wing of the third line, plays center of the first line. Cole Sillinger has second-season syndrome; Jack Roslovic is more a winger than a center. I'm not even talking about d-men. And one more important thing. So much battles we lose at the boards is unreal. Most players have trouble playing hard against them.

 

[thebus88]

Play-off?

Uh yeah…… some of you seemingly look at or perceive the CBJ, only in regards to the time Laine has been on the team.

The team was extremely SUCCESSFUL not a very long time ago, with Bjorkstrand being no worse than our 3-4th most impactful forward.

 

[thebus88]

Haven't seen you railing against Johnny Hockey in any similar fashion and he makes more.

Laine lost the puck last night and caused a goal against. He collided with Peeke but it's still his puck so his fault. He also scored 2. There was 8 other goals against that Laine didn't cause or hardly even was on the ice for.

Maybe your expectation of his salary is that he also successfully coaches the other players to not make mistakes?

I’ve said plenty about Gaudreau. Some of you only care about Laine and everything has to be from his POV.

He’s been an issue also. Reality is that the combo is a problem and it’s something that I “predicted” or felt was possible, whereas the Laine fan club here was penciling Laine in for 65 goals and claiming the 1-2 punch was “unfair”.

The team only needs or will be successful with 1 of Laine/Gaudreau and it should be Gaudreau.

The team needs a center and a defenseman. Moves need to be made to make it happen. Bottom line.

 

[Viqsi]

The team only needs or will be successful with 1 of Laine/Gaudreau and it should be Gaudreau.

I disagree with this premise.

The team needs a center and a defenseman. Moves need to be made to make it happen. Bottom line.

The problem is that nobody is trading a higher-end C or D for a winger. Any winger. Especially if said winger is as one-way as you assert Laine is. And before you point out to how Laine got here to begin with - PLD was forcing his way out to the point of skipping shifts with effort so poor it made national news. 1) That's not happening again anytime soon and 2) even if it did I don't want that kind of player anywhere near this team and I don't think you do either.

 

[VT]

I’ve said plenty about Gaudreau. Some of you only care about Laine and everything has to be from his POV.

He’s been an issue also. Reality is that the combo is a problem and it’s something that I “predicted” or felt was possible, whereas the Laine fan club here was penciling Laine in for 65 goals and claiming the 1-2 punch was “unfair”.

The team only needs or will be successful with 1 of Laine/Gaudreau and it should be Gaudreau.

The team needs a center and a defenseman. Moves need to be made to make it happen. Bottom line.

Jiříček, Mateychuk, Ceulemans minimum.
Johnson, Sillinger, probably Luca Del Bel Belluz
They're players from the last 2 drafts. Next 2023 draft.
Interesting centers (except Bedard and Fantilli): Carlsson, Hager, Ritchie, Dvorský, Smith, Danielson.
The team only needs time for getting experiences.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

The point/joke is that I HATE all the IDIOTS who called all the guaranteed playoff CBJ teams (and HOW they played) MEDIOCRE year after year.

Congrats!!

Doesn’t get much more EXCITING than Tage Thompson!! Oh wait, other than Laine!!

Aside from one season (the panarin year) they were a poor offensive team that rode its defense and goaltending. Which might be good enough to make the playoffs sometimes, but not go further. While that is better than this shit show, I wouldn’t say I miss those days much either

However one thing I do miss is actually having a team identity. I can bitch and moan about how boring those teams were but at least they played their style. This team doesn’t play any style except getting scored on.

 

[thebus88]

Jiříček, Mateychuk, Ceulemans minimum.
Johnson, Sillinger, probably Luca Del Bel Belluz
They're players from the last 2 drafts. Next 2023 draft.
Interesting centers (except Bedard and Fantilli): Carlsson, Hager, Ritchie, Dvorský, Smith, Danielson.
The team only needs time for getting experiences.

The problem is that the “timelines” do not fit with these guys and the vet’s currently on the roster. And we’ve already played the BS best case scenario with every prospect 5 year plan thing before.

At minimum these young guys are nearly a half decade away from being some “powerhouse” or playoff team. Johnson is going to be a top line guy, and Sillinger looks to be a good 2C. Chinakhov a top 6 winger. IN THE FUTURE. When that actually occurs, who knows.

On defense there is even more question marks. Jiricek/Mateychuk/Ceulemans may be no more than #3-4 D Men. Maybe top pairing. But when? This is assuming it’s quick enough where Werenski is still playing at a high enough level to be considered a #1.

Your out of your mind if you think Jenner/Gaudreau are just hanging around 3-4-5 years for all these young guys to POSSIBLY “blossom”.

We have assets. Again, we need a top 6 “veteran” center, and a RIGHT NOW top pairing defender. Things could be ADDED to Laine of actual value, not a Roslovic.

Even if they give up on this year and let everything play out terribly, this summer I think you see unexpected (to some) moves.

I disagree with this premise.

The problem is that nobody is trading a higher-end C or D for a winger. Any winger. Especially if said winger is as one-way as you assert Laine is. And before you point out to how Laine got here to begin with - PLD was forcing his way out to the point of skipping shifts with effort so poor it made national news. 1) That's not happening again anytime soon and 2) even if it did I don't want that kind of player anywhere near this team and I don't think you do either.

Is there some sort of limit on how many players you can add into a trade that I don’t know about??

A Laine+ package could be put together.

 

[CBJx614]

Jiříček, Mateychuk, Ceulemans minimum.
Johnson, Sillinger, probably Luca Del Bel Belluz
They're players from the last 2 drafts. Next 2023 draft.
Interesting centers (except Bedard and Fantilli): Carlsson, Hager, Ritchie, Dvorský, Smith, Danielson.
The team only needs time for getting experiences.

The thing is, you can do this with most teams and then look back 5 years later and maybe only one of those players hit. Everyone loves to think most prospects will hit, but nothing is ever guaranteed.

 

[Viqsi]

Is there some sort of limit on how many players you can add into a trade that I don’t know about??

A Laine+ package could be put together.

How many packages would you accept for a Werenski trade that had as their core a winger? Like, say, Brock Boeser and some picks. Do you think that'd get the attention of anyone here?

How about Jenner. Would you trade Jenner for someone like, oh, Nino Neiderreiter and a 2nd?

Nobody looks at the extras. Nobody looks at the throw-ins. Whether or not a trade will work is determined by looking at the two core pieces going in either direction. The rest is just to get over small hangups on either side. They do not bridge huge gaps like Center Versus Winger, or RD Versus Winger.


And to answer your question directly... yes, there is a limit, although it's more of a practical one. The rule of thumb goes like this:

• One-for-one: possible
• One-for-two: usually possible
• One-for-three: stretching it, likely not possible as you're probably shorting the "one" guy on the single core asset they need
• One-for-four (and up): Don't bother wasting their time.*

There is no such thing as a Laine+ package that will get us the quality of player we're after at the positions we need. We can get more guys like Roslovic and Kuraly, but we have those guys already. We need high-end. Laine+ will not get us high end, because it is a package that, in the end, has as its core piece a winger.

*: Yes, there are exceptions. These are the sorts of deals that get seen as "bad" - either the "one" guy sold too low, or the "four and up" guy overpaid. Neither of these are outcomes we should expect or make plans for.

 

[VT]

The problem is that the “timelines” do not fit with these guys and the vet’s currently on the roster. And we’ve already played the BS best case scenario with every prospect 5 year plan thing before.

At minimum these young guys are nearly a half decade away from being some “powerhouse” or playoff team. Johnson is going to be a top line guy, and Sillinger looks to be a good 2C. Chinakhov a top 6 winger. IN THE FUTURE. When that actually occurs, who knows.

On defense there is even more question marks. Jiricek/Mateychuk/Ceulemans may be no more than #3-4 D Men. Maybe top pairing. But when? This is assuming it’s quick enough where Werenski is still playing at a high enough level to be considered a #1.

Your out of your mind if you think Jenner/Gaudreau are just hanging around 3-4-5 years for all these young guys to POSSIBLY “blossom”.

We have assets. Again, we need a top 6 “veteran” center, and a RIGHT NOW top pairing defender. Things could be ADDED to Laine of actual value, not a Roslovic.

Even if they give up on this year and let everything play out terribly, this summer I think you see unexpected (to some) moves.


Is there some sort of limit on how many players you can add into a trade that I don’t know about??

A Laine+ package could be put together.

Those players need to be developed properly.
We have veterans.
Those are built up gradually. It doesn't stop with these draft picks.
It's clear to me that you would trade Laine for a bowl of lentils, so try to be more original.

 

[Crede777]

That the wingers - one in particular - are having the least impact is part of the point of the post you re replying to, I think.

The point of the post I replied to is that Laine should have a bigger impact on game outcome than he currently does. My point is that wingers have the least ability to impact game outcome when compared to defense, center, and goaltending.

Laine is here to put the puck in the back of the opponent's net. If he is doing that, he is doing his job. If he were a center, I would agree that his 200 foot game is problematic. But he's not.

Trying to run play through wingers is really problematic. The game needs to be dictated and led by defense and/or center to actually have an effective outcome. It's the same as when Nash was here. If Nash is scoring, great he is doing his job. But don't expect him to carry a team. If you want that, you need a top center or dman.