Player Discussion: Patrik Laine IVever: a new hope? (Laine out of PAP, trade request still stands)

[thebus88]

The “list” will take place in another thread and come with a lengthy description/explanation on different things.

A subject I would like to touch on is the idea that “grit” (or whatever “minimizing” or “degrading” term people use against responsible, smart and intensity filled players on the ice) is much easier to acquire than “elite talent/skill” (or whatever term you want to use to minimize the problems with certain “offensive minded” players).

YOU WANT NEITHER TYPE OF PLAYER. Maybe a couple of each, and they should be looked at and paid as “depth players”.

You need players with BOTH types of attributes. These types of players are rare, but, not THAT rare. We had a team FULL of these guys. The problem is that many times a player shows any adequate “defense” or “effort” he is unnecessarily and wrongly classified as a “grinder”, even when they bring plenty of offensive ability.

Neither Gaudreau nor Laine show (or have shown) enough on both sides (or EITHER side/offensively) of the ice that we should be “happy” with what they bring to the ice in relation to their roles on this team or what they get paid.

 

[thebus88]

That said, and I’m sure it’s of no surprise to many, as a preview of my roster breakdown, there is no amount of mathematical manipulation that could get me to keep Roslovic or Laine off my “trade away” list, unless DUMB moves were made to move multiple younger, cheaper, and arguably better offensive minded wingers/players.

To speak the language of the intellectuals….

011100100110111100011

.56 - .3.677 — .01

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

That said, and I’m sure it’s of no surprise to many, as a preview of my roster breakdown, there is no amount of mathematical manipulation that could get me to keep Roslovic or Laine off my “trade away” list, unless DUMB moves were made to move multiple younger, cheaper, and arguably better offensive minded wingers/players.

To speak the language of the intellectuals….

011100100110111100011

.56 - .3.677 — .01

You are correct that no one would be surprised that, faced with evidence that contradicts a position you have staked, you would steadfastly refuse to reconsider said position.

 

[thebus88]

You are correct that no one would be surprised that, faced with evidence that contradicts a position you have staked, you would steadfastly refuse to reconsider said position.

To sum it up, and put it bluntly, I do NOT give a SHIT how much Patrik Laine “wins” while he’s on the ice.

What I care about is how much the CBJ TEAM wins (actual hockey games) while he is apart of the team. Why is the TEAMS record with and without Laine not taken into account or “excused” while Laine getting “carried” by his line mates somehow shows that he is “winning”??

I’m also not sure I remember another guy in recent memory given the “injury excuse” as much as Patty, while at the same time not having it held against him being hurt so often.

 

[Viqsi]

The “list” will take place in another thread and come with a lengthy description/explanation on different things.

A subject I would like to touch on is the idea that “grit” (or whatever “minimizing” or “degrading” term people use against responsible, smart and intensity filled players on the ice) is much easier to acquire than “elite talent/skill” (or whatever term you want to use to minimize the problems with certain “offensive minded” players).

YOU WANT NEITHER TYPE OF PLAYER. Maybe a couple of each, and they should be looked at and paid as “depth players”.

You need players with BOTH types of attributes. These types of players are rare, but, not THAT rare. We had a team FULL of these guys. The problem is that many times a player shows any adequate “defense” or “effort” he is unnecessarily and wrongly classified as a “grinder”, even when they bring plenty of offensive ability.

Neither Gaudreau nor Laine show (or have shown) enough on both sides (or EITHER side/offensively) of the ice that we should be “happy” with what they bring to the ice in relation to their roles on this team or what they get paid.

Part of the issue with this theory of player acquisition IMO is that those guys who have both are rare unicorns and one has to make do with the players that are actually out there. Absolutely, one wants multiple Grit+Skill types. But there's not enough out there to get. Therefore one mixes and matches.

This is a large part of why I'm not on board with "get rid of Laine". I don't think we'd be able to get that sort of return. And since other teams have been able to make it work with guys like him... Why Not Us?

(that said, I am so very on board with this whole "WTAF is with people vilifying toughness and intensity" thing - it just can't be the only thing because there's not enough out there)

 

[HHel]

To sum it up, and put it bluntly, I do NOT give a SHIT how much Patrik Laine “wins” while he’s on the ice.

What I care about is how much the CBJ TEAM wins (actual hockey games) while he is apart of the team. Why is the TEAMS record with and without Laine not taken into account or “excused” while Laine getting “carried” by his line mates somehow shows that he is “winning”??

I’m also not sure I remember another guy in recent memory given the “injury excuse” as much as Patty, while at the same time not having it held against him being hurt so often.

Almost every player

To sum it up, and put it bluntly, I do NOT give a SHIT how much Patrik Laine “wins” while he’s on the ice.

What I care about is how much the CBJ TEAM wins (actual hockey games) while he is apart of the team. Why is the TEAMS record with and without Laine not taken into account or “excused” while Laine getting “carried” by his line mates somehow shows that he is “winning”??

I’m also not sure I remember another guy in recent memory given the “injury excuse” as much as Patty, while at the same time not having it held against him being hurt so often.

Almost every player has to "win" when they are on the ice, because that what it takes to CBJ TEAM win. No only Laine, but it help that he is doing that right now. I don't say, that his play is perfect, but it has been better since 20-21.

Laine has CF% over 80 without Gaudreau and over 50 without Jenner. So who is he carried by? Roslovic?

Injury excuse? Tackled elbow, sprain ancle, covid. Yes, he is for sure responsible all those absents.

 

[NotCommitted]

To sum it up, and put it bluntly, I do NOT give a SHIT how much Patrik Laine “wins” while he’s on the ice.

What I care about is how much the CBJ TEAM wins (actual hockey games) while he is apart of the team. Why is the TEAMS record with and without Laine not taken into account or “excused” while Laine getting “carried” by his line mates somehow shows that he is “winning”??

I’m also not sure I remember another guy in recent memory given the “injury excuse” as much as Patty, while at the same time not having it held against him being hurt so often.

Well then, how come you didn't take that TEAMS record with and without Laine into account last season?

Oh right, it's because the team was way better with him in the line up.

Your criticism comes off as being a hater because you keep moving the goal posts and no matter what he does, it's always somehow wrong. Zero integrity.

 

[Farmboy Patty]

To sum it up, and put it bluntly, I do NOT give a SHIT how much Patrik Laine “wins” while he’s on the ice.

What I care about is how much the CBJ TEAM wins (actual hockey games) while he is apart of the team. Why is the TEAMS record with and without Laine not taken into account or “excused” while Laine getting “carried” by his line mates somehow shows that he is “winning”??

I’m also not sure I remember another guy in recent memory given the “injury excuse” as much as Patty, while at the same time not having it held against him being hurt so often.

I’m sorry but I am so confused by this. I’m not sure if you mean that Laine should make the other lines that he is not playing on to perform better, or get critizied if or when the rest of the team overperforms for a short while when their top scorer is out of the lineup with an injury.

Please, help me understand your logic, because from all I can read this seems to relate to you obviously being Finnish, and being a part of the small but vocal group of passionate Laine haters, that always find something to pile on him. I don’t know if he kicked every puppy in Tampere, Finland, when he was a teen. Whatever it is, something seems to have gotten a few but uneasingly obsessioned hockey fans putting him on their HF Boards cancel list and being openly hateful when their emotions take over. It’s just a game, why you hafff to be mad? (quote from mr. universe )

 

[Viqsi]

I’m sorry but I am so confused by this. I’m not sure if you mean that Laine should make the other lines that he is not playing on to perform better, or get critizied if or when the rest of the team overperforms for a short while when their top scorer is out of the lineup with an injury.

Please, help me understand your logic, because from all I can read this seems to relate to you obviously being Finnish, and being a part of the small but vocal group of passionate Laine haters, that always find something to pile on him. I don’t know if he kicked every puppy in Tampere, Finland, when he was a teen. Whatever it is, something seems to have gotten a few but uneasingly obsessioned hockey fans putting him on their HF Boards cancel list and being openly hateful when their emotions take over. It’s just a game, why you hafff to be mad? (quote from mr. universe )

...thebus isn't Finnish.

 

[Farmboy Patty]

...thebus isn't Finnish.

My bad then, I just got that impression from his/hers posts from another post regarding Finnish and Canadian players from another thread or topic. I must have mixed it up with another poster. The rest of my post is still relevant for this topic. I think that BB88 has a lot of great posts in a lot of threads except for the strange fixation with sniping at Laine, that seems absurd at times.

 

[majormajor]

My bad then, I just got that impression from his/hers posts from another post regarding Finnish and Canadian players from another thread or topic. I must have mixed it up with another poster. The rest of my post is still relevant for this topic. I think that BB88 has a lot of great posts in a lot of threads except for the strange fixation with sniping at Laine, that seems absurd at times.

I think you're just mixing up BB88 with thebus88.

The bus is the strange one. BB the Finn.

 

[thebus88]

I think you're just mixing up BB88 with thebus88.

The bus is the strange one. BB the Finn.

Says the guy who can’t go a day without hyping up Vladislav Gavrikov and Andrew Peeke.

Just give it a little time, I’ll be “vindicated” regarding my “hate” towards Laine, as I have been with Wennberg, Johansen, and now Merzlikins.

 

[Fro]

Says the guy who can’t go a day without hyping up Vladislav Gavrikov and Andrew Peeke.

Just give it a little time, I’ll be “vindicated” regarding my “hate” towards Laine, as I have been with Wennberg, and now Merzlikins.

What have you been vindicated for? Rather odd to find a win in a goalie that was traumatized to support your case as a genius...

 

[CBJWerenski8]

as I have been with Wennberg

Alex Wennberg would be a god send for this team. Don’t think you can put that one in the W column.

He’s also still a solid hockey player. Not an offensive juggernaut, but a solid third line center.

 

[majormajor]

Says the guy who can’t go a day without hyping up Vladislav Gavrikov and Andrew Peeke.

Just give it a little time, I’ll be “vindicated” regarding my “hate” towards Laine, as I have been with Wennberg, Johansen, and now Merzlikins.

We all have opinions on players. That's not the strange part. It's the Manichean worldview applied to a hockey team that is strange.

 

[thebus88]

What have you been vindicated for? Rather odd to find a win in a goalie that was traumatized to support your case as a genius...

I have “strange” opinions that get attacked as “clearly false”, that then over time, continuously end up becoming TRUE. Then, since they almost always certainly have negative ramifications for the team, I’m told I’m a terrible fan for bragging about being right about something that brought negativity to the team, when I’m just bragging to the people who told me I was wrong, and that things wouldn’t or couldn’t happen.

I literally called the Johansen trade and was head of the “Wennberg hate club” before it was the cool thing to do.

And, you know, I find it disgusting some of you guys continue to bring this tragic situation up to help make a point regarding Elvis’ bad play during debate, and/or as in this case, seemingly to attack my character, as if I’m some heartless POS who doesn’t care about the kids death.

My ENTIRE point regarding what I think I’m “right” about is that I think he’s the SAME EXACT goalie he’s always been since being I the NHL. He was a BAD goalie before and after the accident, and I think it’s disrespectful as f*** to use that as the reason why Elvis apparently has gotten worse, when nothing has actually changed regarding his play on the ice.

 

[Fro]

I have “strange” opinions that get attacked as “clearly false”, that then over time, continuously end up becoming TRUE. Then, since they almost always certainly have negative ramifications for the team, I’m told I’m a terrible fan for bragging about being right about something that brought negativity to the team, when I’m just bragging to the people who told me I was wrong, and that things wouldn’t or couldn’t happen.

I literally called the Johansen trade and was head of the “Wennberg hate club” before it was the cool thing to do.

And, you know, I find it disgusting some of you guys continue to bring this tragic situation up to help make a point regarding Elvis’ bad play during debate, and/or as in this case, seemingly to attack my character, as if I’m some heartless POS who doesn’t care about the kids death.

My ENTIRE point regarding what I think I’m “right” about is that I think he’s the SAME EXACT goalie he’s always been since being I the NHL. He was a BAD goalie before and after the accident, and I think it’s disrespectful as f*** to use that as the reason why Elvis apparently has gotten worse, when nothing has actually changed regarding his play on the ice.

Dude you need help...that line of thinking is 1000% insane

 

[thebus88]

Alex Wennberg would be a god send for this team. Don’t think you can put that one in the W column.

He’s also still a solid hockey player. Not an offensive juggernaut, but a solid third line center.

At what cap hit? Either way, no he wouldn’t be. He’d just be more of what we already have. Being an “upgrade” over Kuraly/Sillinger/Johnson at different individual things doesn’t mean it would be enough for him to add anything substantial or worthwhile to this current team. That said, and we’re not going back, the entire Wennberg debate was because how HIGHLY some people looked at him and his potential. “Solid 3rd line center” wasn’t IT.

Easy “W” for thebus on Wenny The Pooh

 

[thebus88]

Dude you need help...that line of thinking is 1000% insane

WHAT “line of thinking”??

Seriously.

That I think it’s wrong that you are using the tragic accidental death of a kid as an excuse why Elvis Merzlikins has bad rebound control??

 

[thebus88]

We all have opinions on players. That's not the strange part. It's the Manichean worldview applied to a hockey team that is strange.

Oh yeah, and where does your opinions on Jake Bean and Adam Boqvist, in relation to Andrew Peeke, fit into all this “Manichean worldview” talk??

 

[Fro]

WHAT “line of thinking”??

Seriously.

That I think it’s wrong that you are using the tragic accidental death of a kid as an excuse why Elvis Merzlikins has bad rebound control??

I hope you don't act that way when you lose a close friend/family member...bc 18 months isn't a lot to be still recovering...I legit am pissed you act like he should be ok

 

[Viqsi]

WHAT “line of thinking”??

Seriously.

That I think it’s wrong that you are using the tragic accidental death of a kid as an excuse why Elvis Merzlikins has bad rebound control??

No, the assertion that the situation hasn't contributed in any way to any of his problems.

 

[Crede777]

Trying to keep this about the on-ice product... I think it's pretty apparent that Laine makes the team better when he's on the ice and the stats seem to back that up. If the team is still bad in spite of that, it isn't on him. He's doing what he can and the coach/GM needs to address the players around him and the system he is in.

 

[thebus88]

Well then, how come you didn't take that TEAMS record with and without Laine into account last season?

Oh right, it's because the team was way better with him in the line up.

Your criticism comes off as being a hater because you keep moving the goal posts and no matter what he does, it's always somehow wrong. Zero integrity.

The team is BAD, with or without Laine, bottom line. I don’t need ANY stats or numbers to tell me otherwise. The only “good” (and probably legit) reason that I’ve heard to not move Laine, is not favorable to him in any way, and is that the return wouldn’t be very good. Yet, even those who accept or express that opinion, seemingly brush off the actual reason why that is.

Trying to keep this about the on-ice product... I think it's pretty apparent that Laine makes the team better when he's on the ice and the stats seem to back that up. If the team is still bad in spite of that, it isn't on him. He's doing what he can and the coach/GM needs to address the players around him and the system he is in.

That he is somehow getting excused from all blame regarding all the different issues with the team/organization at the moment from many fans is fascinating to me. I haven’t seen the focus with this “on ice/off ice” stat and mindset with any other player.

He is not the player to “build around” in any way. Very few players actually are, yet, he couldn’t be much farther away from the type of guy you do build around and morph your roster and team strategy to “fit” around what he brings to the ice.

 

[koteka]

That he is somehow getting excused from all blame regarding all the different issues with the team/organization at the moment from many fans is fascinating to me.

Do you think Ovechkin could score on a team without any centers on a team that Brad Larsen is coaching?

I don’t get blaming any players.

I blame (1) Larsen and (2) the front office. I am ready to clean house.

As for players, I just want to put them in categories such as keep, move, and the jury is still out. I have plenty on my move list. Maybe there is a category of would like to move but the contract prevents it. I don’t believe in buy outs so this category is necessary for me.