You are entitled to your opinion. And we are entitled to ours. Mine is that I can't take you seriously because your emotions are clouding any rational discourse or analysis.
Player Discussion: Patrik Laine IVever: a new hope? (Laine out of PAP, trade request still stands)
- Thread starter Viqsi
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You are entitled to your opinion. And we are entitled to ours. Mine is that I can't take you seriously because your emotions are clouding any rational discourse or analysis.
Cowumbus
Registered User
People keep saying this and it’s not so black and white. Nor do the stats capture the nuance within the game (for example, Laine taking a penalty last night leading to a PP goal by Patches to make it 3-2).
Some stats for you.
5-18-1 with Laine
7-6-1 without Laine
5v5 (cutoff at 60 min TOI)
3 takeaways this year (14th for CBJ forwards only above Voracek, Danforth and Meyer)
5 Dzone giveaways (3rd highest for CBJ forwards behind Chinakhov and Roslovic)
0.67 xG/60 (9th among CBJ forwards)
4 created rebounds (all year)
@thebus88 has some points that I agree with, the main one being that Laine’s poor play (at times) can be counted on being excused by CBJ fans for a plethora of reasons. The second part of @crede77 post is one small example of the Laine vs Everyone else feeling on the boards.
I also tend to agree that the 8.7 million dollars might be better allocated somewhere else on the roster. Or if you are going to spend that much money on another scoring winger, get someone that can play at both ends of the ice (which I think Bus is saying with his “we can only be good with ONE of Laine/Gaudreau, not both” stance). DeBrincat is about to be a UFA, and his contract will start with a 9. If we ask the Senators for DeBrincat in exchange for Laine, who says no? Who is more valuable League wide? Why is that? As Bus mentioned, why would Laine’s value in a trade not be worth it?
Laine is not someone you build around, but a final piece - just as Phil Kessel was. And many times, those are guys you pick up at the TDL on expiring contracts (as a contender).
IMO Laine does not like he once did. If you get the Laine from 2016 or even 2017, sign me up. The guy who actually skated and gave effort. Now the only time I see him try is when he gets mad and tries to go coast to coast. Last point, he is supposed to be THE PP guy, but the PP looks worse with him on it recently. That may be on Larsen though.
This sums up my feelings about Laine pretty well, and it is why a part of me thinks that lion's share of ongoing discussion about Laine's impact on the current Jackets team is kind of meaningless. Whether his stats appear to be better or worse than an average Jackets skater, the team is not going to improve into a playoff contender as long as all cornerstone pieces at crucial playing positions (1C, 2C, 1D, 2D) are still missing.
I think the moment we are back to being a playoff team is when Laine's and his contract's "true" value will be measured. Can he be that final touch that gives the team a slight but sufficient edge over the opponent, a guy who can find the back of the net in a tight checking game where everyone else struggles to score?
Regarding the PP, lately he's seemed to be and probably has been a bit useless player but it's understandable because there still aren't enough good set up guys for his onetimer (especially the pointman), the puck movement of the unit is slow, and the entries/transitioning to 1-3-1 formation aren't working. IOW I think he's a great piece to a PP unit if other 4 players are good puck retrievers and quick distributors and the coach knows how to assemble all of them together.
One intangible thing that has always concerned me with having a "seemingly inconsistent/low-effort, star-status player" like Laine on the team is what kind of leaders they actually are for the younger guys. I mean the guy could be giving his best effort all the time in practices and games and might be a powerful locker room voice, but if his seeming effort on the ice isn't that great consistently, it can have a bad effect on younger players' development in some weird subconscious level. And the risk of having that kind of negative influence on the team will be even higher if you have more than one of this type of "veteran presence" (I'm thinking about Roslovic and Voracek as other examples).
Sometimes Rick Nash claimed to be a leader by example, and maybe he sincerely felt that way throughout his captaincy, but to an outside viewer he certainly was not playing a high-effort game consistently and I can't help but wonder how that might have affected Brassard's and Voracek's development in their early NHL years.
Crede777
Deputized
- Dec 16, 2009
- 14,836
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He isn't getting excused from blame. Rather, we have to keep in mind that all we can really expect from a player - especially a winger - is that they play hard and demonstrate a positive effect on game outcomes when on the ice. Nothing more.
If all players on the Jackets had Laine's underlying possession and shot generating numbers, this team would be much better off in terms of its record.
Also, nobody is saying to build around him. What they, or at least I, am saying is that Laine is a strong complimentary piece. You don't build around wingers. You build around centers and defensemen. But if you have a very good winger on the roster, you keep him while still looking for that center and defenseman to build around so you have him when you find those other players.
The giveaways/ takeaways aren't pretty but the overall possession stats seem to be improved. And this is despite the injury issues. A guy playing through a high ankle sprain isn't going to be the same. I'm not impressed with Laine and I rarely have been but a lot of his issues are injury related and it's hard to define the baseline of what he brings.
Personally I might prefer Cat just because I can't stand watching Laine's stupid solo rushes and stupid turnovers. Would the Sens make that trade? I think they might if they want to avoid making a $9mx8 commitment, they might prefer 3 years. The biggest downside is Laine's injuries, which is probably a dealbreaker.
This is why I didn't want Laine in the first place. The team we had before had a very high standard. Every player that was acquired or called up had to meet that and they all did or were shipped out swiftly. Unfortunately the only way to onboard Laine (and Roslovic, Domi, etc...) was to throw that standard out the window. And now when this team is under pressure they just break. There's no bottom to it.
I don't remember in where threads were written Laine scored only 1 goal in 10 games. So this is stat health Mathews in October.
Every player has a bad period, especially when he has injured and then has to return his shape.
P.S. I don't compare qualities these players.
Every player has a bad period, especially when he has injured and then has to return his shape.
P.S. I don't compare qualities these players.
Ah, just came across one of these I was talking about. Looking at win-loss record when a player is out just doesn't work
It shines through today like it shined the day you excreted it
You don’t get it.
I’m a CBJ fan, not a Patrik Laine fan. Literally all you care about is how many goals/points Laine puts up.
He hasn’t been doing shit the last weeks now this is how you react after 1 “good game”. It was 1 game. His shot is his only actual “above average” quality to his game. The goals he scored in this game add or show NOTHING at all, and quite frankly weren’t very special in any way, and were more to do with smart/ good passing by his t teammates and poor defense by DET.
@thebus88 hates Laine, especially since Bjork was traded because of him. The discussion is useless.
P.S. I hasn't liked Bjorks's trade too and was unpleasant shocked this.
I hate Laine because he is at the HEART of my favorite NHL hockey team, that I have followed for nearly 20 years, literally becoming 1 of the worst teams in the league over multiple seasons, and that I have essentially ZERO motivation to even actually watch them play a game, when in the past, even CBJ teams that were looked at with much less “potential”, were enjoyable to watch, even when losing games regularly.
We’re talking watching 50-60-70+ games a year, to I don’t even know, maybe 20. And yes, I know the game of hockey. He may not be THE reason this team sucks, but he ABSOLUTELY is part of the problem, and again, from what I see, very well could be the “cancer” that is causing many of the symptoms we now see with this team, that just so happened to begin (or undeniably ramp up) after the superstar arrived.
P.S: Bro, who’s even talking about Bjorkstrand anymore?? I surely am not and haven’t been, you bring him up in relation to Laine SO MUCH. There’s a reason I’m not in here regularly trashing other (young) offensive players on the team, and Nikolai Zherdev and Pavel Bure are literally 2 of my favorite players of all time.
I have the same type of complaints about Gaudreau, the only difference is that he’s actually much more impactful on the ice most of the time, mainly by how he plays the game, and how he can or does make the players around him better.
That said, yes the CBJ would be better with Bjorkstrand instead of Laine, as they also would be with $8-9 million extra in cap money, or almost ANY other player with a similar cap hit.
Farmboy Patty
Senior Hockey Analyst
- Nov 2, 2017
- 1,757
- 2,878
Now that is a wall of text that could have been expressed in one sentence – “I hate Laine no matter how good he plays because I hate Laine”. You sir, are a special case of hater and frankly, don’t seem like a true supporter of the team.
Xoggz22
Registered User
My biggest complaint with Laine is pretty much what @majormajor has outlined on several occasions. He likes to carry the puck, end to end, hold it too long and turns it over. His turnovers are at inopportune times and it's part of the reason he doesn't see consistent success. My personal belief is that he truly thinks that he's helping the team and really trying to help them win by doing so. The problem is he apparently fails to recognize that when he does that it is outside the team construct and it hurts the team more than helps. Sure a pretty play happens once in a while but more often than not it's a turn over that leads to an odd man rush or a turnover at out blue line that results in chaos. Right now, with this team, that's the worst possible scenario because the goaltending and defense can not cover for that. So we end up with a compounding problem.
I happen to like Laine and see him as a key player when this team starts winning. He's a true goal scorer and that comes with being streaky. His injuries hurt his consistency and his ill times whirls hurt the structure. I don't know that it will change but I think it's less problematic with a NHL roster. Maybe it is also reduced when overall better players on on the ice with him in general. Who knows. I still think he's a piece that will be important to this team if by the grace of the hockey Gods we can A) sustain some health and B) see some development in the youth. This team isn't this bad and it isn't Laine's fault. He's simply not helping like some of us would really like to see.
I happen to like Laine and see him as a key player when this team starts winning. He's a true goal scorer and that comes with being streaky. His injuries hurt his consistency and his ill times whirls hurt the structure. I don't know that it will change but I think it's less problematic with a NHL roster. Maybe it is also reduced when overall better players on on the ice with him in general. Who knows. I still think he's a piece that will be important to this team if by the grace of the hockey Gods we can A) sustain some health and B) see some development in the youth. This team isn't this bad and it isn't Laine's fault. He's simply not helping like some of us would really like to see.
Good post by the way.
While I’m vocally not a “stats guy”, I find it hilariously ironic how some guys who are, will come up with all different types of numbers to show how they are right, yet they blatantly ignore or dismiss the same type of “numbers” that counteract or contradict the points they are trying to make.
I would love to see the statistics on the number of rebound shots (or even rebound shot attempts) that Laine takes, I think it would be another thing that shows what a Laine truly brings to the ice. At least Filatov was honest about things.
Double-Shift Lasse
Just post better
You admitted that you aren’t watching the games as much so you probably missed his second goal just last night.
I'm Columbus fan still from 2008 year, when Jakub Voráček was drafted. It's 15 years. From David Výborný time who was hated by most Slovak hockey fans, including me because he made stupid comments about our national team. Of course it was explained later, but nobody knew it at the time. You can think what do you want but my opinion is that Patrik is important for us. Also go to ask a coach and players if he's cancer. Simply, I won't discuss Laine with you any more.
P.S. you write worse about him from Ollie's trade, that's why I wrote it. Btw, show me a Columbus fan who was glad Ollie's trade.
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If he's on speed, he has a very good transition. But as they say, the puck is faster than the skates, and the Gaudreau -- Roslovic -- Laine line has finally started to take to use the quick passes.
Btw, he doesn't have to be only a piece. And my pretension is that he doesn't use his body and the long stick better.
- Jan 12, 2011
- 14,406
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i understand the polarizing opinions in Laine and it’s easy to cite examples supporting each viewpoint. Recently he’s been less than stellar than last night he lights the lamp with ease. Despite his faults I want him here (albeit I wish it was for $1.5M less). The main issue for me is that he doesn’t present the value of his contract for the team at it’s current stage. If - big if - at least four of the young guys among the KJ, Marchenko, Chinakov, Jiricek, Svozil, Mateychek pool pan out and we hit in this draft then I think Laine’s true value will emerge. …..One other thought - likely a fantasy - would be if Ros could prove he can effectively center Johnny/Patty. My god he’ll never get a better chance to show himself.
Byrral
Registered User
More so than Laine himself I am more concerned with the history and circumstances of how he got here in the first place and the who, what and how that all happened. What actually happened with Torts, PLD, the player exodus, Jones, etc?.....it has yet to be truthfully told (it never will be) and why some of those key people that were involved in that entire situation continue to run this team while us fans are again asked for support and patience. If Laine was gone tomorrow I could care less yet some of the key people involved in that drama are still in charge of this mess of a team and yet they continue to get a pass from some based on hopes, dreams and mostly excuses. How is this Laines fault? Laine is not someone you build your team around but whether he belongs on this team in the future or not is not determined at this point in time. I'm much more concerned with who is going to be making this decison when the dust settles after the season ends.
CBJWerenski8
Rest in Peace Johnny
- Jun 13, 2009
- 43,621
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We can argue back and forth about whether or not Laine is good or whether or not we should trade him, but the reality is we're probably "stuck" with him regardless. For at least 2 years.
With that, it appears Larsen and the FO are really going to try to make this thing work with Gaudreau. And yesterday against Detroit seemed like a good step up for them both together.
If we can improve our young guys, establish Gaudreau and Laine as a duo, get a top 3 pick (hopefully 1), and maybe get Elvis back on track, then maybe the year wasn't totally useless after all.
With that, it appears Larsen and the FO are really going to try to make this thing work with Gaudreau. And yesterday against Detroit seemed like a good step up for them both together.
If we can improve our young guys, establish Gaudreau and Laine as a duo, get a top 3 pick (hopefully 1), and maybe get Elvis back on track, then maybe the year wasn't totally useless after all.
I'm not worried about Laine (or Gaudreau for that matter), they'll be fine either together or separated. I think the game vs DET was a good showing of why you might want to have them together - though I gotta say DET defense was not playing great, but then again their lapses were all about doubling or even tripling Laine or Gaudreau and when those two play well like that, sometimes even good defenses are going to fall into that. Like the first Laine goal, there two guys on Gaudreau, or that glorious chance Gaudreau had which didn't end up in net, there were 2 DET guys putting pressure on Laine at the blueline and a 3rd thought it's a good idea to also get there, but they failed, Laine made a nifty little move to get the puck to Roslovic who found Gaudreau all alone with goalie.
Good to see Laine score a few, I'd like to see him embrace his goal scorer mindset more, to me it seems he's lost some of that and it's been going for years. Score goals dude and enjoy them and celebrate them, I don't care if it's a meaningless goal in a meaningless game, for a goal scorer every goal counts and keeps them going. It's a legit source of motivation. I wouldn't want a team full of "pure goalscorers" but having one or two is great, at least if they're good at it.
Good to see Laine score a few, I'd like to see him embrace his goal scorer mindset more, to me it seems he's lost some of that and it's been going for years. Score goals dude and enjoy them and celebrate them, I don't care if it's a meaningless goal in a meaningless game, for a goal scorer every goal counts and keeps them going. It's a legit source of motivation. I wouldn't want a team full of "pure goalscorers" but having one or two is great, at least if they're good at it.
To be fair, Bjork was not traded because of Laine. If anything, Bjork was traded because of Johnny and Gudbransson (and because of Voracek&Nyquist contracts and KJ & others coming into the pipeline). Also in part I guess the FO lost their belief in Bjork as a top line player on contender since the weak last season and seems that Bjork isn't exactly ripping it in Kraken either, so while short term losing Bjork sucks to some degree, trading him seems to be the right call since 5.4M for a 3rd line player is just way, way too much. So far it seems that 20-21 was the career season for Bjork. He was not that guy on 21-22, and based on stats (points and relative GF%), it seems he isn't even close that guy in 22-23 either.
Ps. I am not happy about Bjorkstrand trade, but I think it was the right call even when it sucks to part ways with such a great guy, and short term it sucks also on ice.
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This absolute crap of a player somehow manages to stay on top of Goals For vs Goals Against (a.k.a. winning) on 5-on-5. So far, he has not been able to elevate the other guys when he is NOT on ice, which is sad and obviously something Bjork/Atkinson/PLD did regularly, but somehow after two last seasons he just manages to be on top of all 2 season guys and still there with KJ & Johnny that have less than 1/2 of the TOI.
He is the luckiest man alive, I guess. Somehow he has managed to be better than average defensively, which is pretty nice feat when you think he typically faces pretty fierce competition and can only shoot the puck. How do you defend by shooting the puck I don't know, but as per thebus88 that's only thing he does so... Too bad eg. Bjork had that bad of a shot, which was the reason his defense was just crap last season.
(stats: 21-22 & 22-23, CBJ relative GF% 5-on-5, min. TOI 500 minutes ~roughly 1/2 season)
Furtherhmore, when you check this very season on isolation, which is obviously the most fair way to compare guys, you get following list (300 minutes min. TOI) 5-on5:
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