P.K. Subban Thread - Mk III - Unsigned Edition

[Cole Caulifield]

Made no sense. Not sure we're talking about the same thing though. But I get your point.

Just to be sure, my point is that blindly following rules is not always good. You have to use good judgment and common sense. Sometimes whatever advantage following a rule provides is just not worth it.

Whether Bergevin feels like he has the leverage, he doesn't. Not in a year where we had the lockout. And now to piss the fans even more, there's a lockout about one of our best players. Makes no sense that didn't arrive to agreement. Can't believe that everybody is playing hardball.

For me this is not the problem. I don't mind who has leverage and all the negotiation crap.

The problem I have with this situation is that Bergevin is not picking his battles properly. He gave the world to Price, he overpaid for Prust, but when it's time to shell out the cash for Subban he's trying to make some Pejorative Slured point.

Subban is not the guy I would have decided to stand my ground against personally.

 

[ECWHSWI]

Hmm overating markov too much! he had 1 g 4 assists in 25 in KHL i think even emelin has more point then him

different league, shouldnt put too much weight into it... unless you expect Pacc to suck since he was far from great in Europe ?

 

[coolasprICE]

So, you too agree that "Subban is vastly superior to Markov defensively" or that 'Subban is almost as good as Markov was at his best" ?


Call him that once he bring some sort of championship to this city.

I'd take Subban today over Markov in his prime.

 

[Natey]

Hmm overating markov too much! he had 1 g 4 assists in 25 in KHL i think even emelin has more point then him

Emelin was also on a good team (4th out of 26), Markov was not (22nd out of 26).

Markov was 4th in +/- on a team that had 16 players registering a negative +/-. As witnessed by a few write-ups, Markov was also robbed of at least a couple assists, if not more.

I'd take Subban today over Markov in his prime.

Really? Why?

 

[ECWHSWI]

I'd take Subban today over Markov in his prime.

every Bruins fan would.

 

[coolasprICE]

every Bruins fan would.

What does Markov truly do better than Subban? power play? knowing when to pinch? passing?

His advantages are so marginally better. Subban has qualities that Markov can only dream of (such as being as strong and ''thick'' as him).

Does it take a rocket scientist that Markov isn't a physical ''blessing''?

 

[22Brad Park]

Hey all.Was not following this that close,Any fears here this is long dragged out stand or do yas figure he sign anyday now?I am sure it will cost seeing as to what other s make around the league and fact his agent knows ya freed up Gomez coin next yr,

 

[ECWHSWI]

What does Markov truly do better than Subban? power play? knowing when to pinch? passing?

His advantages are so marginally better that Subban has qualities that Markov can only dream of (such as being as strong and ''thick'' as him).

Does it take a rocket scientist that Markov isn't a physical ''blessing''?

yup all those 3 he is better at.

 

[Natey]

What does Markov truly do better than Subban? power play? knowing when to pinch? passing?

His advantages are so marginally better that Subban has qualities that Markov can only dream of (such as being as strong and ''thick'' as him).

Does it take a rocket scientist that Markov isn't a physical ''blessing''?

In his prime, it's not even close. Markov > Subban. Maybe Subban, in his prime, will be better than Markov in his prime, but that's still up for debate.

Markov definitely loses the physical aspect, sure. But it's not like he was a pushover. Markov was better at every other aspect of the game in his prime than PK is now besides maybe showboating.

 

[coolasprICE]

yup all those 3 he is better at.

yes, i'm listing that.. how much better? not by much.

Subban destroys markov in many other categories, unlike just being a ''bit better''.

 

[Whitesnake]

The problem I have with this situation is that Bergevin is not picking his battles properly. He gave the world to Price, he overpaid for Prust, but when it's time to shell out the cash for Subban he's trying to make some Pejorative Slured point.

Subban is not the guy I would have decided to stand my ground against personally.

I understood your point. Totally well taken, I hated Gainey's decision to not negotiate during a season. But the battles you're talking about his the foundation of how to work within a salary cap. For me, that's a pretty good battle. He starts giving this guy that kind of treatment, and another guy another kind of treatment, he will also have all sorts of problems.

Problem for me is that just like the NHL thought the NHLPA would never go as far as they did....Bergevin probably thought Subban wouldn't go that far either. And again, the Habs are amongst the few ones with a problem on their hands. But it's worst here, ,cause if we trail 1-0 against the Leafs, we will hear P.K., P.K., P.K again which will piss off a lot of our players as it should. Atmosphere will start to be tough for everyone involve and that's not how I envision watching my hockey.

 

[OneSharpMarble]

What does Markov truly do better than Subban? power play? knowing when to pinch? passing?

His advantages are so marginally better. Subban has qualities that Markov can only dream of (such as being as strong and ''thick'' as him).

Does it take a rocket scientist that Markov isn't a physical ''blessing''?

Wow either the Subban hype machine is getting out of control or someone doesn't remember Markov in his prime.

Markovs cerebral game made him one of the best in the league and he could elevate the entire teams play. Subban is nice and all but Markov in his prime is in another stratosphere.

 

[OneSharpMarble]

Just to be sure, my point is that blindly following rules is not always good. You have to use good judgment and common sense. Sometimes whatever advantage following a rule provides is just not worth it.



For me this is not the problem. I don't mind who has leverage and all the negotiation crap.

The problem I have with this situation is that Bergevin is not picking his battles properly. He gave the world to Price, he overpaid for Prust, but when it's time to shell out the cash for Subban he's trying to make some Pejorative Slured point.

Subban is not the guy I would have decided to stand my ground against personally.

Price took a 2 year contract, Subban should do the same.

 

[Kriss E]

We'll stop with the car analogy, you know what my point was. The cap is going down next year. Yeah, we unloaded Gomez yet, it's not like we're 20 M$ under either. With more revenues as the CBA progresses, the cap with go higher. Surely as soon as a 2-year contract ends. We will then be able to envision giving him a lot with some tweaking to do but we will have 2 years to figure it out. Now, he's not helping. And not even helping him 'cause if he thinks he's all that already, imagine what he'll think in 2 years when there will be no doubts whatsoever.

Sure we can stop, but you got my point as well right?? Since the last lockout, the tendency has been more years=lower cap hit, so less years=higher cap hit. That was the general unwritten rule going around in negotiations when looking at the contracts being signed.
So, you want PK for 2 years? Don't expect him to sign at about 500K-1M more than Prust.
It's not like PK will just give you 2 years of him (where he could very well get injured and lower his value) at a cheap price just because the team was poorly managed.
I mean, Gorges and Price knew there was a very good chance cap was going to drop, and they apparently love this team just as much as PK, so why didn't they sign at a cheaper price? Neither of them really deserve their contracts. Easily arguable they are somewhat overpaid.
And are we going to ask the same thing of DD next year if he breaks the 70pt mark?

I don't think PK feels he's all that. That's a picture painted by fans/media. I think he recognizes what he has brought and brings to this team.

What baffles me the most however is this:
You have a star, actually willing to hold out in order to commit more years to this Habs team. He's not requesting a trade. He's not talking smack. He is one of the most promising rising stars on Defense in the NHL.
Let me repeat that one more time, this star is holding out because he wants to play here for a longer time.

Meanwhile, it's been a recurring complaint from fans that NO stars want to play here. That the only players (not even stars) that we could sign are passed their prime, older and we had to overpay for every single one of them.

Now we have one, but fans aren't for it. Bipolar fans I tell you. And before saying PK is asking to be overpaid, let's wait to hear what the numbers actually are because we've heard so many conflicting reports.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

In his prime, it's not even close. Markov > Subban. Maybe Subban, in his prime, will be better than Markov in his prime, but that's still up for debate.

Markov definitely loses the physical aspect, sure. But it's not like he was a pushover. Markov was better at every other aspect of the game in his prime than PK is now besides maybe showboating.

I tend to agree but...

Markov faded in the post season and never found a way to stand out and make a big impact. It's unclear to me whether it's because he was worn out, injured, playing on bad teams or if he just isn't a playoffs performer.

Subban, on the other hand, showed more in the few playoffs games he played than Markov in all his playoffs career IMO.

 

[Kriss E]

I understood your point. Totally well taken, I hated Gainey's decision to not negotiate during a season. But the battles you're talking about his the foundation of how to work within a salary cap. For me, that's a pretty good battle. He starts giving this guy that kind of treatment, and another guy another kind of treatment, he will also have all sorts of problems.

Well, that's where I completely disagree with you.
PK isn't just some guy. He is not some guy like Eller is.
PK made the All-Star rookie team. He was our #1 Dman for 3/4 of the past 2years. He is our most promising young player and arguably our best player. He's also one of the most promising young Dman in the NHL.
So, say PK gets a long deal, not every kid coming out of the ELC can just look at PK's contract during negotiations and say they deserve that. No. They will need to have accomplished and performed very well to even be mentioning PK's contract.

So no, not any other guy will just be able to come in and ask the same.

PK would be treated as an exception, not the norm.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

What baffles me the most however is this:
You have a star, actually willing to hold out in order to commit more years to this Habs team. He's not requesting a trade. He's not talking smack. He is one of the most promising rising stars on Defense in the NHL.
Let me repeat that one more time, this star is holding out because he wants to play here for a longer time.

Meanwhile, it's been a recurring complaint from fans that NO stars want to play here. That the only players (not even stars) that we could sign are passed their prime, older and we had to overpay for every single one of them.

Now we have one, but fans aren't for it. Bipolar fans I tell you. And before saying PK is asking to be overpaid, let's wait to hear what the numbers actually are because we've heard so many conflicting reports.

So true. I'm shocked by this also.

 

[Kriss E]

Price took a 2 year contract, Subban should do the same.

It's been explained to you that Price had lost his #1 spot the year before his contract. He only won 13games that year, and had one of his worst years.

Not comparable AT ALL.

 

[Dr Gonzo]

What baffles me the most however is this:
You have a star, actually willing to hold out in order to commit more years to this Habs team. He's not requesting a trade. He's not talking smack. He is one of the most promising rising stars on Defense in the NHL.
Let me repeat that one more time, this star is holding out because he wants to play here for a longer time.

Meanwhile, it's been a recurring complaint from fans that NO stars want to play here. That the only players (not even stars) that we could sign are passed their prime, older and we had to overpay for every single one of them.

Now we have one, but fans aren't for it. Bipolar fans I tell you. And before saying PK is asking to be overpaid, let's wait to hear what the numbers actually are because we've heard so many conflicting reports.

You win the Montreal Canadiens internet. (It's a series of tubes)

 

[Marc the Habs Fan]

Bergevin/Molson, Meehan and Subban should be embarrassed it has come to this.

DAL and COL are teams on limited budgets, which may help explain why Benn and ROR are still unsigned. This isn't the case here.

Subban is looking at his season perhaps being one long training camp whenever it begins after not playing any hockey since early April 2012. If he ends up just signing a bridge contract in the end, his bargaining power for his next deal will be hurt if his 2012-13 is rough. There's no doubt some of his teammates will look at him in a different light whenever he signs if he misses several games too.

Bergevin/Molson may see their season be over by about Game 10 in part because of this fiasco if this team has a bad start.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

Price took a 2 year contract, Subban should do the same.

But that's the silliest argument. When Price took that 2 year contract he was in no position to ask for anything. He was coming off terrible seasons where he had even lost his spot as #1 to Halak. You bet your ass he took a 2 year deal. It was his best interest.

 

[niftymove]

Smart tweet here:

Nicky Boy ‏@Nikosvazelas
The best way to get subban signed is for everyone, including the fans to stop mentioning his name. #GohabsGo

 

[Cole Caulifield]

Well, that's where I completely disagree with you.
PK isn't just some guy. He is not some guy like Eller is.
PK made the All-Star rookie team. He was our #1 Dman for 3/4 of the past 2years. He is our most promising young player and arguably our best player. He's also one of the most promising young Dman in the NHL.
So, say PK gets a long deal, not every kid coming out of the ELC can just look at PK's contract during negotiations and say they deserve that. No. They will need to have accomplished and performed very well to even be mentioning PK's contract.

So no, not any other guy will just be able to come in and ask the same.

PK would be treated as an exception, not the norm.

You stole the words out of my mouth. Can't treat everyone the same.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

Smart tweet here:

Nicky Boy ‏@Nikosvazelas
The best way to get subban signed is for everyone, including the fans to stop mentioning his name. #GohabsGo

OOOOOOR..

You keep mentionning his name, keep chanting it at the Bell and force the dummy in the GM spot to sign one of his best player to a long term deal.

 

[Moneyman2k6]

I think that you guys forget too fast how great was and is subban.
1- In his first pro carrer at the AHL he was the best defenseman of the team. He was named The AHL Rookie of the Year and participate in the all-star game. Then, he came in the big league, plays 2 games vs philly in regular season and has 2 points. Then in the playoff...As a rookie He contributes to Shut-Down players like Ovechkin, Crosby and Malkin at 20 years old LOL. at his last games he was the defenseman who was playing the most on the team.

2- At His first year In the NHL, He made the all-star game, has a 15 goals 38 points. Was the first defenseman since.... i dont know who to scores a Hat trick and a pass as a rookie. was named on the NHL rookie team of the year. And then He score a BLAST on TIM Thomas with one minute left in game 7 vs bruins to give us a chance to play overtime vs them!

3- Last year, as many are saying he is not mature and etc... WE dont give a **** lol he has a 36 points year which is not bad for a sophomore frenzy year! And he is the defenseman that play the most minutes.

To conclude, I think too many are getting in the organization side by saying he need a 2 years deal same as price and paciorrety. The only reason why they signed them to a 2 years deal was because they havent had great stats on their side. People keep saying he needs to prove himself at first but dang If that are not proof what are they??
Well i only hope they sign him quick cause we wont be able to play a lot of game without him. He his our best defenseman! sorry markov but ur time is old lool! but still a great D