P.K. Subban Thread - Mk III - Unsigned Edition

[onebighockeyfan]

Ideally? 4-5 years at $4-5M.

My GUT feeling is that's the offer on the table right now from MB. But that's just my guess.

 

[ECWHSWI]

At this point, this is nothing more than wishful thinking.

yup, we all know Markov doesnt have the talent to match up whatever P.K. does.

 

[EveryDay]

Starting to get mad at PK.... Just sign the damn 2 years contract!!!!

 

[OneSharpMarble]

Ideally? 4-5 years at $4-5M.

Ya 4.5 is probably pretty close to his value but it seems Bergevin is sticking to his guns as to the bridge contract. I don't blame the guy if he has legitimate concerns or is trying to handle each youngster with the same rules.

 

[Et le But]

yup, we all know Markov doesnt have the talent to match up whatever P.K. does.

Even if Markov was never seriously injured, it's probable he still wouldn't quite be the same player he was 4 years ago. 4 years ago Kaberle was still considered a first pairing defender.

Markov showed a lot of promise in the KHL and scrimmage and the "injury prone" issue is overblown..but it's clear he's slower than he once was, and we still don't know what psychological impact his injuries left on him.

 

[onebighockeyfan]

Ya 4.5 is probably pretty close to his value but it seems Bergevin is sticking to his guns as to the bridge contract. I don't blame the guy if he has legitimate concerns or is trying to handle each youngster with the same rules.

Do you have a good source for this? I would appreciate it. What I've read on Twitter, although unreliable, is that PK is asking for 6+ for 5 years which would be a little rich for me. 5 for 6 years I would be OK with.

 

[ECWHSWI]

Even if Markov was never seriously injured, it's probable he still wouldn't quite be the same player he was 4 years ago. 4 years ago Kaberle was still considered a first pairing defender.

Markov showed a lot of promise in the KHL and scrimmage and the "injury prone" issue is overblown..but it's clear he's slower than he once was, and we still don't know what psychological impact his injuries left on him.

i'd take Markov at 75% over P.K. for this season any day of the week.

 

[Whitesnake]

Well that doesn't work as an analogy. We are not talking about replacing PK for 2 years of a cheaper Dman.
If you lease an old Beemer, you gonna expect it to be as good as the new one?
Doesn't work buddy..

We'll stop with the car analogy, you know what my point was. The cap is going down next year. Yeah, we unloaded Gomez yet, it's not like we're 20 M$ under either. With more revenues as the CBA progresses, the cap with go higher. Surely as soon as a 2-year contract ends. We will then be able to envision giving him a lot with some tweaking to do but we will have 2 years to figure it out. Now, he's not helping. And not even helping him 'cause if he thinks he's all that already, imagine what he'll think in 2 years when there will be no doubts whatsoever.

 

[DAChampion]

i'd take Markov at 75% over P.K. for this season any day of the week.

I wouldn't. Subban is not as good as Markov was offensively, but he's already defensively superior, and that's with respect to 2007-08-09 Markov. Quite honestly at this point I don't see 60 point Markov coming back, just see what happened to Sergei Gonchar... as players get older their production declines.

I do however enjoy the poetic irony.

For the past three seasons, some Habs fans have blamed all of our problems on Markov's injuries. Now that we have Markov back, Bergevin is locking out Subban.

 

[MathMan]

if anything, Markov will be the player you're describing.

I hope so, but he's not as young as he once was, and even if he were at his peak, it'd be a damned small gap between the two.

 

[pepperMonkey]

If he stays a 35-45pt player and does all the things he does, is he worth 6mil?

Just asking because the last thing I would want is if he plateaus below expectations and we have him for a long term. Heck, even one bad year early on in a 5yr contract would make the Hab nation (media, fans etc) go nuts and pretty much boo him consistently just like, well, everyone else like Price, Gomez, Breezy etc. etc.

It seems like long contracts are just a bad idea in Habs land for any player unless we are dead sure they are super stars and would play up to their potential which I don't think Subban is at this moment. Sure, long term for cheap is an exception but upper $$$ for someone we aren't too sure of yet? Seems mighty risky.

If he stays the way he is now and 6mil is okay, then sure, go for it. Otherwise, go shorter $$$ for a shorter contract and see how he is after.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

yup, we all know Markov doesnt have the talent to match up whatever P.K. does.

That's just bad faith posting and you know it. Everyone knows Markov has insane talent. But talent can be diminished by injuries, age and 3 seasons of missed hockey. And you know this.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

Ya 4.5 is probably pretty close to his value but it seems Bergevin is sticking to his guns as to the bridge contract. I don't blame the guy if he has legitimate concerns or is trying to handle each youngster with the same rules.

And what did you think of Gainey's rule of not negotiating during the regular season ?

 

[Whitesnake]

And what did you think of Gainey's rule of not negotiating during the regular season ?

Made no sense. Not sure we're talking about the same thing though. But I get your point.

Whether Bergevin feels like he has the leverage, he doesn't. Not in a year where we had the lockout. And now to piss the fans even more, there's a lockout about one of our best players. Makes no sense that didn't arrive to agreement. Can't believe that everybody is playing hardball.

 

[Jeffrey]

The comparisons between Kulikov and Subban are false.

Dimitry Kulikov averaged 17:58 ES TOI/G, 2:50 PP TOI/G and 1:02 SH TOI/G last year.
PK Subban averaged 18:11 TOI/G, 3:29 PP TOI/G, and 2:36 SH TOI/G last year.

The main difference in their ice time was on the penalty kill. PK Subban indeed got more ice time than Kulikov, but that's because of his elite shutdown skills, not because he is given more offensive opportunities.

Moreover, in 5on5 play, Subban had a Corsi QoC of +0.903 (incredibly high) and only began 46.3% of his shifts in the offensive zone, whereas he ended 50% of his shifts there. Kulikov, meanwhile, had relatively babied minutes, with a Corsi QoC of +0.103, beginning 45.9% of his starts in the offensive zone and ending 47.0% of his shifts there.

Florida also made it to the playoff while the canadiens finished last. Oh yeah, Kulikov is also way younger !

 

[Jeffrey]

Wow the Subban haters have the worst arguments.

There is no such thing as hater...
It's called unreasonable demand.

 

[ECWHSWI]

I wouldn't. Subban is not as good as Markov was offensively, but he's already defensively superior, and that's with respect to 2007-08-09 Markov. Quite honestly at this point I don't see 60 point Markov coming back, just see what happened to Sergei Gonchar... as players get older their production declines.

I do however enjoy the poetic irony.

For the past three seasons, some Habs fans have blamed all of our problems on Markov's injuries. Now that we have Markov back, Bergevin is locking out Subban.

so, what you're saying is, you completely forgot what kind of player Markov can be.

 

[ECWHSWI]

That's just bad faith posting and you know it. Everyone knows Markov has insane talent. But talent can be diminished by injuries, age and 3 seasons of missed hockey. And you know this.

key word right there.

 

[ECWHSWI]

I hope so, but he's not as young as he once was, and even if he were at his peak, it'd be a damned small gap between the two.

overrating Subban much...

 

[coolasprICE]

We all seem to be on the same page as to his skill level (minus a few weird exceptions).

But can anyone in here characterize PK as lazy, who doesn't give his 110% and isn't willing to do what it takes to win a battle?

Or that PK isn't able to compete in big games, or disappears when the games and moments count?

That he lacks the heart and determination?



I didn't think so. The argument can be made that PK at $6 million is an overpayment. That's one risk I'm willing to jump a million times over if i had to.

How many PK Subban like D-men have we had in the last 25 years? Do I need to go into the details as to what makes him unique?

You know, I respect a lot of what many of you have to say, but it's time we give our heads a shake.

Just because PK walks to walk to his own beat (which is extremely refreshing and exactly what this league and fans / city needs) but i STRONGLY believe that he has what we see in true champions.

I love how most of you go drooly all over Josh Gorges. I don't see Subban as having any less character than him... the only real difference between those two guys, is that PK has skill that Gorges can only dream of. Yet, giving PK a long term contract for a few million more than Gorges, is somehow considered outrageous.

 

[habtastic]

This thread has devolved into something similar to the Price/Halak threads in which if you said anything redeeming about Price, that meant you HATTTTED Halak, didn't absolutely love him for doing what he did in 2010 (as well as prior to that). Here, agreeing with Bergevin's stance, being somewhat ticked off that PK seems to be asking to a bit more than he deserves means that you HAAAAATE PK, that you'd rather trade him, that he's a cancer, that he's the most greedy person on earth.

It isn't like that at all. Most if not all want PK signed VERY badly. Many of us have become sensitized to giving out contracts that may be a little too generous. We're looking toward the future and with all the talk about PK always being a #1 D (what a crock!), he was a great surprise for us in that he's developed into currently our best defenseman and one for the future likely (although I put Markov equal with him due to his talents and TBH Gorges' defensive play is irreplaceable on this team).

What about if the same thing happens with Beaulieu, Tinordi, Gally, etc. I see very good things for us in the future and every time this situation arises (it's been a while since we've had the emergence of some very talented young guys to form out core), we can't go giving out contracts that we can't afford. Patches' contract was fair. Price's was fair. PK is asking IMO a little more than what's fair. Whether that's leverage or not, the point is that many of us just wish he would recognize that he will still make a VERY decent sum of money by taking what (and yes I have to admit I don't know what's going on in the room) Bergevin has allegedly offered him. It's about wanting him to forget about the SUPER big contract now and focus on hockey and building this team back up. He will get the super big one if he plays like he has, but for now, just take what is essentially a BIG contract. (Even if it's two years, it's great money for a player in his position.)

For those calling that a "hating PK" perspective, I think they're overvaluing him just a bit and more importantly (and ironically) not looking to the future. Our GM is finally doing the sensible thing, albeit inconvenient for the first game(s), and believe me I'm deeply disappointed cuz I really needed to see him vs. the leafs, and people complain that our organization is making the same mistakes. It's quite the opposite. Hopefully it's resolved ASAP. I will look forward to seeing Subban EARN what he currently thinks he deserves - he's still got to improve a few things and he will.

The fact that we have a very good chance of seeing Gally play on the second line tomorrow has softened the blow for me. Not by much, but I'm focussing my attentions on just scoring from up front.

 

[Moneyman2k6]

i'd take Markov at 75% over P.K. for this season any day of the week.

Hmm overating markov too much! he had 1 g 4 assists in 25 in KHL i think even emelin has more point then him

 

[ECWHSWI]

We all seem to be on the same page as to his skill level (minus a few weird exceptions).

But can anyone in here characterize PK as lazy, who doesn't give his 110% and isn't willing to do what it takes to win a battle?

Or that PK isn't able to compete in big games, or disappears when the games and moments count?


I didn't think so. The argument can be made that PK at $6 million is an overpayment. That's one risk I'm willing to jump a million times over if i had to.

How many PK Subban like D-men have we had in the last 25 years?

You know, I respect a lot of what many of you have to say, but it's time we give our heads a shake.

Just because PK walks to his own beat (which is extremely refreshing and exactly what this league and fans / city needs) but he's a champion.

I love how most of you go drooly all over Josh Gorges. I don't see Subban as having any less character than him... the only real difference between those two guys, is that PK has skill that Gorges can only dream of.

So, you too agree that "Subban is vastly superior to Markov defensively" or that 'Subban is almost as good as Markov was at his best" ?


Call him that once he bring some sort of championship to this city.

 

[Natey]

I hope we can string together 8 out of the first 10 points. That should put another bargaining chip in MB's pocket if PK doesn't break first.

 

[DAChampion]

If the team has a bad start without Subban a lot of members from the hindsight brigade will claim that they knew Bergevin should not have played hardball.