Ovechkin passes Crosby for 17th all-time in points

[Beau Knows]

Never read the thread, but I honestly don't know that I've seen a thread started about a guy passing another guy even though both are still playing.

Could make a new thread everyday

I think it's fairly unique to have two rival star players who were tied in points after coming into the league at the same time, so many years ago. But yeah, a new thread for each time it happens seems a little silly now.

 

[nowhereman]

Lmao, Conn Smythe’s, 50% of Sid’s Smythes he shouldn’t even have making them even. There’s a reason many hockey pools count goals as 2 points and that’s because they are much harder to come by. Ovy is the best goal scorer ever, Sid isn’t close to be the best play maker ever. Scoring goals is a rarer more sought after ability.

Sounds like Crosby has shelf full of excuses whereas Ovy has the hardware.

So it's about the novelty of being the best at one skillset, rather than being the best overall player? Crosby is a better goalscorer than Ovechkin is a playmaker.

What is ironic about that?

Sidney Crosby obviously didn't deserve the Conn Smythe in 2016 when he produced at a 65 point / 21 goal pace as a minus player who didn't kill penalties (10 seconds per game - which is really just him hopping over the boards after the real penalty killer got a clear) or play much defense (66% offensive zone starts).

Sid was tied for 6th in points and tied for 12th in goals in those playoffs.

Ovechkin earned all of his awards. For his Conn Smythe he produced at a 92 point / 51 goal pace.

Ovechkin was 2nd in points and 1st in goals in those playoffs.

Surely you're not about to argue that Ovie's 92 point / 51 goal pace was the same as Crosby's 65 point / 21 goal pace.

Despite all the mental gymnastics, this is where trophy-counting becomes an issue. Crosby's 2009-10 playoff run is one of the best of the last two decades and better than anything from OV. The year before that, Sid led the playoffs in scoring and helped his team to a Cup Finals berth.

Bringing up playoffs in the Sid vs. OV debate never helps Ovechkin.

 

[Rodgerwilco]

This has got to be the funniest post here, trying to use numbers on a hypothetical 82 game playoff season? Come on.

It's a new low for the 12 O'Clock Justices, lol.

 

[Midnight Judges]

This has got to be the funniest post here, trying to use numbers on a hypothetical 82 game playoff season? Come on.

It makes me chuckle when specific posters lash out against any per game metric due to it hurting their horse, but then extrapolate production to magnify a perceived edge. It has to be exhausting constantly trying to make the narrative fit what you want it to be.

Do you think Crosby felt like a complete fraud or merely an average fraud as he was skating around with an MVP trophy having produced at a 65 point / 21 goal pace as a minus player while another player looks on who produced at a 103 point / 34 goal pace as a plus player who unlike Crosby actually contributed on the penalty kill while being better than Crosby defensively?

 

[Midnight Judges]

Despite all the mental gymnastics, this is where trophy-counting becomes an issue. Crosby's 2009-10 playoff run is one of the best of the last two decades and better than anything from OV. The year before that, Sid led the playoffs in scoring and helped his team to a Cup Finals berth.

Bringing up playoffs in the Sid vs. OV debate never helps Ovechkin.

Ovechkin's playoff GPG and PPG were better than Sid's at that time.

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The Capitals as a whole were not a well-constructed team. They were poor defensively until Niskanen and Orpik arrived ('14-15), and in net until Holtby ('12-13).

 

[beowulf]

Do you think Crosby felt like a complete fraud or merely an average fraud as he was skating around with an MVP trophy having produced at a 65 point / 21 goal pace as a minus player while another player looks on who produced at a 103 point / 34 goal pace as a plus player who unlike Crosby actually contributed on the penalty kill while being better than Crosby defensively?

I am not a fan of either team and see both as great hockey players. Do you think Ovi felt like a fraud for winning a trophy Kuznetsov should have likely won? I mean he did lead the playoffs in scoring. Heck maybe Scheifele should have won the Smythe that year as he was pacing for 68 goals and 29 assists in the 2017-18 playoffs with his 14 goals, 1 less that Ovi, in only 17 games to Ovi's 24 games?

Ovechkin's playoff GPG and PPG were better than Sid's at that time.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

The Capitals as a whole were not a well-constructed team. They were poor defensively until Niskanen and Orpik arrived ('14-15), and in net until Holtby ('12-13).

So you complain about others making excuses for Sid but now you are making excuses for Ovi? Interesting.

 

[Midnight Judges]

I am not a fan of either team and see both as great hockey players. Do you think Ovi felt like a fraud for winning a trophy Kuznetsov should have likely won?

No. Because Ovie produced at a 51 goal / 90-something point pace as a plus player - which is in the ballpark with how league wide MVPs were playing around that time. (Hall won in 2018 with 93 points and 39 goals. McDavid in '17 with 100/30).

Crosby produced at a 65 point / 21 goal pace as a minus player while being 6th in points and 12th in goals - which is nowhere near how an MVP plays.

I get that Crosby fans desire to pretend these are the same. They're not.

 

[beowulf]

No. Because Ovie produced at a 51 goal / 90-something point pace as a plus player - which is in the ballpark with how league wide MVPs were playing around that time.

Crosby produced at a 65 point / 21 goal pace as a minus player while being 6th in points and 12th in goals - which is nowhere near how an MVP plays.

I get that Crosby fans desire to pretend these are the same. They're not.

Again I am not a fan of either team/player. Funny how you forgot the rest of the post, especially making excuses for Ovi.

 

[Midnight Judges]

So you complain about others making excuses for Sid but now you are making excuses for Ovi? Interesting.

Ovie led the NHL in GPG and PPG from 2005-2011.

There is no reason to make any excuses: He was clearly the best player in the world.

Again I am not a fan of either team/player.

Yeah sorry I've heard that too many times...right before people start saying very unbalanced things...such as pretending a 65 point / 21 goal pace is the same as a 91 point / 51 goal pace.

 

[beowulf]

Ovie led the NHL in GPG and PPG from 2005-2011.

There is no reason to make any excuses: He was clearly the best player in the world.



Yeah sorry I've heard that too many times...right before people start saying very unbalanced things...such as pretending a 65 point / 21 goal pace is the same as a 91 point / 51 goal pace.

You are hilarious. Do you ever take your blinders off? You act the same way towards Ovechkin as you complain others do for Crosby and the irony is you don't even seem to realize it.

 

[Midnight Judges]

You are hilarious. Do you ever take your blinders off? You act the same way towards Ovechkin as you complain others do for Crosby and the irony is you don't even seem to realize it.

I'm just pointing out that many thousands of the most biased posts on HFboards start with "I'm totally unbiased but..."

 

[beowulf]

I'm just pointing out that many thousands of the most biased posts on HFboards start with "I'm totally unbiased but..."

And I am pointing out that you are as biased towards Ovechkin as you complain others are towards Crosby.

 

[Beau Knows]

Crosby produced at a 65 point / 21 goal pace as a minus player while being 6th in points and 12th in goals

Wait is +/- an important stat now?

Ovechkin is +85 in his career, Crosby is +207.
Ovechkin has been a - in almost every one of his playoff appearances.

Are those stats significant now?

 

[BehindTheTimes]

3 more points, in 168 less games

270 less goals, pretty insignificant, I know.

 

[Midnight Judges]

And I am pointing out that you are as biased towards Ovechkin as you complain others are towards Crosby.

I am biased towards Ovechkin. I'm a Capitals fan.

But I've never invented aspects of his game out of thin air as Crosby fans so often do when they pretend he plays lots of defense and deserves Selke votes, or deserves significant consideration for the penalty killing that he obviously didn't do.

Nor do I slander Crosby with lies as Crosby fans often do to Ovechkin when they claim he scores goals and does nothing else (a.k.a. "one dimensional").

Nor do I insult Crosby by ranking him far below players that he is quite comparable to (as Canadian fans do to Ovie relative to Bobby Hull).

I realize you live in Canada, and so you're inundated with this stuff to the point where it probably feels normal.

 

[Human]

Considering that Ovechkin played hockey further than the second playoff round exactly once in his career, his playoff stats should be better than they are…

 

[Midnight Judges]

Wait is +/- an important stat now?

Ovechkin is +85 in his career, Crosby is +207.
Ovechkin has been a - in almost every one of his playoff appearances.

Are those stats significant now?

I think it goes against whatever excuses people were using to pretend Crosby was a worthy MVP candidate.

I wouldn't hang my hat on +/-.

Certainly the fact that Crosby produced at a paltry 65 point / 21 goal pace is a more prominent fact relative to a player who has never shut anyone down, doesn't kill penalties, and is deployed primarily for offense. You guys would shred Ovechkin if ever he produced at such a lowly level.

 

[WiLBoY]

Ov fans only see goals. The other player wins all the board battles and sets up teammates all day long. Wins faceoffs and plays defense.

We know which player you build around for a winning team

 

[Beau Knows]

I think it goes against whatever excuses people were using to pretend Crosby was a worthy MVP candidate.

Right, so +/- is an important stat as long it supports your argument.

I wouldn't hang my hat on +/-.

Yes, obviously, because Crosby's +/- numbers are better. If the opposite was true we'd never hear the end of it from you about +/-.

 

[Bouboumaster]

Fewer.





C'mon. If we're going to get into petty, pedantic debates, at least hit the grammar high points.

You can go grammar nazi all you want but the point still stand

 

[Midnight Judges]

Right, so +/- is an important stat as long it supports your argument.

I think +/- is more relevant if you are trying to claim a player is a match-up player or a defensive player. If your role is to prevent goals and play defense, then yeah perhaps it's a better indicator.

And I think if a player had low offensive output in a year, but they're +/- was fantastic, you might say, hey this guy was obviously focused on defense. This is the case for Patrice Bergeron in roughly 2009-2014 when he was scoring 40-60 points per season with ~55% defensive zone draws. Boston had some good success that way.

Crosby's offensive production - a 65 point / 21 goal pace - is putrid for a 1C. So you guys started pretending he was great at defense or was a shutdown guy. Except he wasn't. Crosby was closer to Bergeron's offense coupled with Ovechkin's defense. But somehow he ended up with an award he didn't deserve.

 

[Bouboumaster]

270 less goals, pretty insignificant, I know.

Points > Goals

 

[beowulf]

I am biased towards Ovechkin. I'm a Capitals fan.

But I've never invented aspects of his game out of thin air as Crosby fans so often do when they pretend he plays lots of defense and deserves Selke votes, or deserves significant consideration for the penalty killing that he obviously didn't do.

Nor do I slander Crosby with lies as Crosby fans often do to Ovechkin when they claim he scores goals and does nothing else (a.k.a. "one dimensional").

Nor do I insult Crosby by ranking him far below players that he is quite comparable to (as Canadian fans do to Ovie relative to Bobby Hull).

I realize you live in Canada, and so you're inundated with this stuff to the point where it probably feels normal.

But Crosby is better defensively, might be because he is a center who often have to be more responsible but over their careers Ovi has 3 season that he got some Selke votes ending up 28th, 30th and 50th on those occasions. Meanwhile Crosby has received Selke votes 10 times during his career with his best finish being 4th in 2018-19. Kind of hard to dispute that. Just like it has hard to dispute that Ovechkin plays a rougher, harder hitting game and their career hits bear that out.

Time on the ice, takeaway and giveaway stats are all similar. Crosby has a better shooting % but Ovechkin has taken about 5000 more shots in his career.

etc. etc. there careers are not that different overall.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Ov fans only see goals. The other player wins all the board battles and sets up teammates all day long. Wins faceoffs and plays defense.

We know which player you build around for a winning team

yeah Crosby wins 52.7 face-offs for every 47.3 he loses. Oh man what a huge advantage.

 

[Beau Knows]

I think +/- is more relevant if you are trying to claim a player is a match-up player or a defensive player. If your role is to prevent goals and play defense, then yeah perhaps it's a better indicator.

And I think if a player had low offensive output in a year, but they're +/- was fantastic, you might say, hey this guy was obviously focused on defense. This is the case for Patrice Bergeron in roughly 2009-2014 when he was scoring 40-60 points per season with ~55% defensive zone draws.

Crosby's offensive production - a 65 point / 21 goal pace - is putrid for a 1C. So you guys started pretending he was great at defense or was a shutdown guy. He simply wasn't.

Your claim is that "people are making excuses", meanwhile all you're doing is making excuses about how someone else "should have" won.

The number of times I've seen you complain about that Smythe is weird. It was a close race, it could have gone to Kessel, either player winning was fine - just line in 2018 where Kuznetsov could have easily won. It's been 7 years, get over it . It's clear who has been the better playoff player anyways, why bother trying so hard to retroactively make excuses for who "should have" won?