Ovechkin passes Crosby for 17th all-time in points

[steleh]

Ovechkin has more goals yet a lot are empty net goals and teammates constantly feeding him while he stands there.

The other is a hard grinder and makes plays for the team.

Both are talented. You can argue goals, one has more cups.

Doesn't Crosby have more empty net points than ov? Or did i misremember that?

 

[bobholly39]

Doesn't Crosby have more empty net points than ov? Or did i misremember that?

Yes, 69 to 67
54 goals to 28 for Ovechkin though

Empty net points/goals are among the most important in the sport. Anytime you score one, you almost for sure ensure your team wins. Not sure why some consider them a negative...it's weird

 

[BehindTheTimes]

6-1 in major wins (3 cups + 3 international wins) favors crosby by a big margin. Im pretty sure the biggest goal scored by either player was an OT winner in the biggest international tournament. 2 conn smythes also will resonate pretty strongly.

We’re talking about the players, not their teams. If this was golf or tennis you might have a point, but since it isn’t…..

One has a substantial edge in individual awards, which is direct reflection of their performance, which they are in control.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Ovechkin has more goals yet a lot are empty net goals and teammates constantly feeding him while he stands there.

The other is a hard grinder and makes plays for the team.

Both are talented. You can argue goals, one has more cups.

Crosby has more empty net points in his career than Ovechkin.

Funny how Ovechkin is top 4 in hits over the past 18 seasons by "just standing there." I suppose you think opposing players are just running into him all the time while they are carrying the puck? And we all know where Ovechkin allegedly stands (the top of the circle in his offensive zone). So opposing players are constantly just running into a stationary Ovechkin standing in what has been labeled his "office." You'd think NHL players would be capable of avoiding a guy just standing around - especially a guy who everyone knows where he stands. But no! Not according to you! In fact they run right into him hundreds of times per season. 3000 times so far. It's downright bizarre!

And whereas Sidney Crosby isn't standing still and is trying to make hits at times (~900 career hits), somehow NHL players run into him less than 1/3 as often as the allegedly stationary Ovechkin. I guess it's just one of those extremely strange and unlikely anomalies that somehow persists through an enormous sample size?

But here's what we know as a fact: your opinion is rock solid. Unchangeable, totally logical - also totally original and definitely not created by haters of Russia's greatest ever player. Perhaps the stats are just lying. Yeah that must be it.

 

[Beau Knows]

Crosby is now 16th, Ovechkin 17th.

Both should pass Mikita very soon, but will have to wait until next season to get past anyone else.

 

[gtrower]

Ovechkin has more goals yet a lot are empty net goals and teammates constantly feeding him while he stands there.

The other is a hard grinder and makes plays for the team.

Both are talented. You can argue goals, one has more cups.

One played his entire career with another generational talent and most of it with 2 (maybe 3?) other HoFers.

Remove ENGs and it’s still 756 to 511 (48% more). Crosby is actually T-10th all time in ENGs and is likely going to finish his career either 3rd or 4th all time. Also has more career ENPs than Ovi despite playing so many fewer games.

Remove PPGs and it’s still 516 to 386 (34% more).

Remove Secondary assists and its 1,209 to 1,108 (9% more).

 

[nowhereman]

We’re talking about the players, not their teams. If this was golf or tennis you might have a point, but since it isn’t…..

One has a substantial edge in individual awards, which is direct reflection of their performance, which they are in control.

One has a substantial edge in Richard trophies. It measures one aspect of hockey, in the same way that the Selke only measures one aspect of hockey but doesn't tell the whole story of a player's overall value. In the last decade, Ovechkin has 7 Richard trophies but has only been top 10 in scoring 3 times. Crosby has twice as many top 10 finishes, despite missing hundreds of games due to injury. For instance, Ovechkin won the Richard in 13-14 but Sid still outscored him by a 25% margin.

Again, if all you do is concern yourself with Ovechkin's goalscoring, you're missing the full scope of comparing these players.

 

[Pengwins]

Crosby has more points than OV despite playing in 168 fewer games

 

[Randyne]

w/o this man Sid would be in Thornton tier.

 

[kevsh]

w/o this man Sid would be in Thornton tier.

let me respond with: Without Backstrom Ovi would be a 30 goal/year scorer.

 

[Randyne]

Since you're clearly trolling, let me respond with: Without Backstrom Ovi would be a 30 goal/year scorer.

By your logic Backstrom>>>>>>>>>Sid, because Sid wasn't capable to create greatest goalscorer of all time.
And Ovi would be more like 60 goal/year scorer. Ovi numbers are higher without Backstrom.
And you didnt find any pictures with Backtrom awards because there aren't any.

 

[Rodgerwilco]

w/o this man Sid would be in Thornton tier.

It's not as if Ovechkin played on barren teams, he's had Nick Backstrom his whole career and otherwise pretty strong teams for the most part.

 

[abo9]

Crosby has more empty net points in his career than Ovechkin.

Funny how Ovechkin is top 4 in hits over the past 18 seasons by "just standing there." I suppose you think opposing players are just running into him all the time while they are carrying the puck?

That' because he's just so fat and his teammates so good defensively that opponent players run into him by accident all the damn time.

Same thing with goals, he only scores so much because his teammates feed him the puck all the time, allowing to shoot much more often than other players. Being fat also helps him here as opponent players forget that he's on the ice because he just stands there.

 

[Randyne]

It's not as if Ovechkin played on barren teams, he's had Nick Backstrom his whole career and otherwise pretty strong teams for the most part.

Sid numbers are much lower without Malkin. Ovechkin goal scoring production is higher without Backstrom.

 

[RageQuit77]

As without Malkin, there wouldn't be Crosby as we know him.

You simply cannot let the Empire project the planetary shield to the Death Star construction project from Endor, without that impacting heavily Endor too. In fact, there wouldn't be the Death Star without it being on an orbit of Endor.

Direct strike against the Death Star by the rebel fleet was so efficient only because the Death Star relied so heavily to it's dependency to Endor.

That's why ultimately the goal really doesn't count, by the Hegemony. Without Endor there is no the throne to sit for the Emperor... and if we are perfectly honest, there are no, regardless.

 

[nowhereman]

w/o this man Sid would be in Thornton tier.

Pathetic argument. Every star player who ever won anything had help and, funny enough, Crosby is one of those stars who probably had the least to work with compared to other legends. But the idea that Crosby is one of the most decorated winners of all time because he just so happened to get lucky over and over and over and over again by his team situation is weak, to say the least.

 

[Neil Racki]

Would have been more fair to give him 50 per season if you wanted to come across as somewhat fair.

It would have been more fair to give Crosby hypothetical goals and then use that number to compare against Ovi's actual goals?

I enjoy watching bias entrenched fans try to argue one is clearly better than the other.

Goals > assists

Crosby is 1A, Ovi 1B .. it will probably flip for me if Ovi passes Gretzky for goals.

 

[Rodgerwilco]

Sid numbers are much lower without Malkin. Ovechkin goal scoring production is higher without Backstrom.

While I should have asked you to cite the stats, I had some spare time.

Ovie with Backstrom
1026 GP 628 G 492 A 1120 PT
0.612 Goals / G
0.48 Assts / G
1.092 Point / G

Without Backstrom
133 GP 84 G 60 A 144 PT
0.632 Goals / G
0.451 Assts / G
1.083 Point / G
Goals go up 0.02 /game
Assists go down .03 /game
Points go down .009 / game

Crosby With Malkin
879 GP 423 G 706 A 1129 PT
0.481 Goals / G
0.625 Assts / G
1.284 Point / G

Without Malkin
194 GP 77 G 155 A 232 PT
0.397 Goals / G
0.799 Assts / G
1.196 Point / G
Goals go down 0.09 / game
Assts go up 0.174/game
Points go down .09 / game


So as we see, Ovi adds .02 Goals per game without Backstrom, which is pretty negligible.

Sid loses .09 points per game without Malkin, but gets more assists.

Overall, it's really fairly insignificant. They both have played with really great teammates and both benefit greatly from it over the course of their entire careers. It's pretty much impossible to really take all variables into consideration to even come to a true understanding of the relationships between the players anyway.


The point anyway is that Backstrom is no slouch, and acting like Ovi had no help his entire career when he played on some really stacked teams is just re-writing history.

 

[RageQuit77]

Even steven, but goals are those who make the measurement: point.

Without goal, there are no point(s).

Of course, aunt, cousin from backbush savannah, blind cat, 3-yo first-skate, and ilks, et al. will intuitively know that on average hockey needs some passing for a player to score a goal, but they all also know that for any points to be counted there must be someone who actually stops the clock by scoring that damn pesky goal for time needed to track down retrospectively what actually happened before that goal scoring shot.

Goal ends the game time, that assist(s), if any, can be counted... uh, sorry points.

Never seen any good argument why Goal=Assist=Point when it is obvious that without a goal there are not going to happen anything on a score board. Nobody ever witnessed any assists to non-existent goal.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

One has a substantial edge in Richard trophies. It measures one aspect of hockey, in the same way that the Selke only measures one aspect of hockey but doesn't tell the whole story of a player's overall value. In the last decade, Ovechkin has 7 Richard trophies but has only been top 10 in scoring 3 times. Crosby has twice as many top 10 finishes, despite missing hundreds of games due to injury. For instance, Ovechkin won the Richard in 13-14 but Sid still outscored him by a 25% margin.

Again, if all you do is concern yourself with Ovechkin's goalscoring, you're missing the full scope of comparing these players.

I'm not looking at goalscoring only, but I do value goalscoring over playmaking. No one ranks Adam Oates ahead of Brett Hull for example. What Ovy is doing now is absolutely incredible.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Pathetic argument. Every star player who ever won anything had help and, funny enough, Crosby is one of those stars who probably had the least to work with compared to other legends. But the idea that Crosby is one of the most decorated winners of all time because he just so happened to get lucky over and over and over and over again by his team situation is weak, to say the least.

How many 'overs' do you think there are?

1. He's from Canada
2. He has the clear cut third best player of his generation on his team.

 

[Ugene Magic]

While I should have asked you to cite the stats, I had some spare time.

Ovie with Backstrom
1026 GP 628 G 492 A 1120 PT
0.612 Goals / G
0.48 Assts / G
1.092 Point / G

Without Backstrom
133 GP 84 G 60 A 144 PT
0.632 Goals / G
0.451 Assts / G
1.083 Point / G
Goals go up 0.02 /game
Assists go down .03 /game
Points go down .009 / game

Crosby With Malkin
879 GP 423 G 706 A 1129 PT
0.481 Goals / G
0.625 Assts / G
1.284 Point / G

Without Malkin
194 GP 77 G 155 A 232 PT
0.397 Goals / G
0.799 Assts / G
1.196 Point / G
Goals go down 0.09 / game
Assts go up 0.174/game
Points go down .09 / game


So as we see, Ovi adds .02 Goals per game without Backstrom, which is pretty negligible.

Sid loses .09 points per game without Malkin, but gets more assists.

Overall, it's really fairly insignificant. They both have played with really great teammates and both benefit greatly from it over the course of their entire careers. It's pretty much impossible to really take all variables into consideration to even come to a true understanding of the relationships between the players anyway.


The point anyway is that Backstrom is no slouch, and acting like Ovi had no help his entire career when he played on some really stacked teams is just re-writing history.

I didn't know Crosby and Malkin played on the same line. Am I reading something (all this) in an alternate universe?

 

[SEALBound]

Sid numbers are much lower without Malkin. Ovechkin goal scoring production is higher without Backstrom.

When not with Backstrom, he's been with Kuznetsov so...not exactly a potent retort.

 

[george14]

I'm not looking at goalscoring only, but I do value goalscoring over playmaking. No one ranks Adam Oates ahead of Brett Hull for example. What Ovy is doing now is absolutely incredible.

And no one ranks Hull above Yzerman. Or Gartner above Beliveau.

Do people not realize Sid will retire with well over 600 goals? He’s won 2 Richards as a playmaker. What are we doing here?

 

[gtrower]

And no one ranks Hull above Yzerman. Or Gartner above Beliveau.

Do people not realize Sid will retire with well over 600 goals? He’s won 2 Richards as a playmaker. What are we doing here?

Crosby as a playmaker 4 AR+RRs. Ovi as a goal scorer 10 AR+RRs. I think that’s what we’re doing here.