Ovechkin passes Crosby for 17th all-time in points

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IMO offensive player who scores 3 even strength goals in 24 games while playing 20+ minutes and does not standout defensively does not deserve SC like Crosby in 2016.
He also had 17 points not counting empty netters and was a minus player.

Crosby in 2017 and Ovi 2018 CS trophies are equivalent and I have no issues with those.
 

Alright I'll address this post because I think the rationale is not great.

Couture was the most valuable player. That is the very definition of the award. There is no case what-so-ever that a player producing at a 65 point / 21 goal pace is more valuable than a player who is producing at a 103 point / 34 goal pace while also contributing more defensively. There are lots of fans who think team success and individual player value coincide almost invariably. This is synonymous with not understanding the game. I think you know that.

I understand that the voters don't go this way often, but it isn't never, nor is that part of the definition of the trophy, and so this statement: "...he had no case for winning the Smythe" is unfounded.

There is definitely a case. It is better than Crosby's by a wide margin IMO.

Regardless, let's review the history of each time a player won without leading the playoffs in points:

View attachment 641307

In most cases it was a goalie or defenseman - players who, unlike Crosby - contribute primarily on the defensive side of things. It is perfectly logical not to rate these players on points when point accumulation isn't their primary responsibility.

And then among the forwards who won the CS despite the points leader in the playoffs playing for a losing team, you really just have three other instances:

Toews, who was 3% behind in points and 71% behind in goals (while also contributing quite a bit on the PK while Briere didn't PK)
Lemieux, who was 50% behind in points but had 85% more goals the Fedorov. Fedorov was notoriously great at defense.
Nieuwendyk, who was 14% behind in points, but had 38% more goals than Forsberg.

I don't see how those support Crosby being 58% behind in points while also being 67% behind the same guy in goals, while also contributing less defensively than that guy.

Boy that was an awful lot of digging just to find out that none of this remotely supports Crosby's Conn Smythe and that Crosby's award is still an outlier (gift). This really just highlights his outlier status even more.



I think Crosby's 2016 Conn Smythe very clearly belonged in that 9% - which would make it 10% or 12% or something if it was factored in to the sample. I mean yeah, the massive difference of contribution from Couture down to Crosby was very likely in the top 10% of times when a losing player outplayed a player from the winning team.

Can you name another time when a losing player had such a huge margin in goals and points while also contributing more defensively over the CS winner?
I'm not going to spend much more time on this, because I've said what I wanted to say. Crosby had one of the weakest Conn Smythe wins of the four-round era in 2016, and I don't think anybody has denied that.

I'm not even convinced that Couture was the best Shark that spring. My vote would have gone to Brent Burns. He logged a huge number of minutes in all situations, he massively tilted the ice at 5v5 (Couture didn't) and 24 points for a defensemen is much rarer than 30 points for a forward. I think it's just superficial stat-reading, seven years down the road, that makes Couture look better. (I'll defer to any Sharks fans if I'm wrong). But that's another reason why this "Couture for Smythe" campaign is strange - unlike, say, the 2003 Ducks or 1976 Flyers, when it was absolutely certain who was the best player on the losing team.

You're missing a bunch of players from the list (ie who won the Smythe without leading the playoffs in scoring). So that outcome is much more common than you think. Even limiting it to years where another forward took the trophy, we have Toews in 2010 (who also finished with negative plus/minus, didn't score a goal in the SCF's, and someone on the losing team reached 30 points - EDIT I see you had him on your list), Kane in 2013 (who won with 19 pts in 23 games, basically the same line as Crosby, just three years earlier), Messier in 1984, Alfredsson & friends in 2007, Goring in 1981, Gretzky in 1984, and Ovechkin in 2018.

You can continue campaigning for Couture. Until then, he joins a long list of players who led the playoffs in scoring with 30+ points while not winning the Smythe (along with McDavid in 2022, Kucherov in 2021 and 2020, Briere in 2010, Gretzky in 1983, 1987 and 1993, Messier in 1990, Bossy in 1981, and Kuznetsov in 2018).
 
um, hey @hfmods, can we get a thread title change? Current one is bs, incorrect, felonious, stupid, deceivious *, wrong, ill-concieved and stinky.


* patent pending on new word creation
 
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I'm not going to spend much more time on this, because I've said what I wanted to say. Crosby had one of the weakest Conn Smythe wins of the four-round era in 2016, and I don't think anybody has denied that.

I'm not even convinced that Couture was the best Shark that spring. My vote would have gone to Brent Burns. He logged a huge number of minutes in all situations, he massively tilted the ice at 5v5 (Couture didn't) and 24 points for a defensemen is much rarer than 30 points for a forward. I think it's just superficial stat-reading, seven years down the road, that makes Couture look better. (I'll defer to any Sharks fans if I'm wrong). But that's another reason why this "Couture for Smythe" campaign is strange - unlike, say, the 2003 Ducks or 1976 Flyers, when it was absolutely certain who was the best player on the losing team.

You're missing a bunch of players from the list (ie who won the Smythe without leading the playoffs in scoring). So that outcome is much more common than you think. Even limiting it to years where another forward took the trophy, we have Toews in 2010 (who also finished with negative plus/minus, didn't score a goal in the SCF's, and someone on the losing team reached 30 points - EDIT I see you had him on your list), Kane in 2013 (who won with 19 pts in 23 games, basically the same line as Crosby, just three years earlier), Messier in 1984, Alfredsson & friends in 2007, Goring in 1981, Gretzky in 1984, and Ovechkin in 2018.

You can continue campaigning for Couture. Until then, he joins a long list of players who led the playoffs in scoring with 30+ points while not winning the Smythe (along with McDavid in 2022, Kucherov in 2021 and 2020, Briere in 2010, Gretzky in 1983, 1987 and 1993, Messier in 1990, Bossy in 1981, and Kuznetsov in 2018).
Random question—haven’t followed closely, but would any of the other 2016 candidates—Malkin, Kessel, Letang or Murray have been stronger than Crosby as a candidate?
 
Random question—haven’t followed closely, but would any of the other 2016 candidates—Malkin, Kessel, Letang or Murray have been stronger than Crosby as a candidate?
I talk about that in this post. Crosby was one of four Pens who had a legit case for the Conn Smythe. I was able to dig up the voting results and Crosby, Kessel and Letang got all of the first place votes, and almost all of the second place votes.

Not going to spend much time on this. 1700 characters later.
Exactly. It was one of my shorter posts!
 
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2016 CS should have been Kessel’s but voters didn’t anticipate a back to back so they gave it to Sid, who had a decent argument for it. So it goes.

He deserved 2017, tho.
 
2016 CS should have been Kessel’s but voters didn’t anticipate a back to back so they gave it to Sid, who had a decent argument for it. So it goes.

He deserved 2017, tho.
I never got the Kessel argument.

Yes, he was very good in the playoffs, but he largely benefited for getting easier match ups by playing on the HBK line. Sid and Geno got all the tough assignments. That + 1st unit PP time. Despite that advantage, he only beat Sid by 3 points.

I mean, sure, he could have won it over Sid and it would not have been scandalous, but he was not "robbed".

If anything, Letang was the better candidate of the three.
 
Despite that advantage, he only beat Sid by 3 points.

I mean, sure, he could have won it over Sid and it would not have been scandalous, but he was not "robbed".

If anything, Letang was the better candidate of the three.
Even strength on ice goal differential 2016+2017 SC
Kessel =17
Malkin =10
Sid =2
Kessel was robbed
 
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Even strength on ice goal differential 2016+2017 SC
Kessel =17
Malkin =10
Sid =2
Kessel was robbed
Theres not a single person who watched all the pens game in 2016 with half a brain who, if given the choice of only having Kessel or Crosby, would choose Kessel. Just because Kessel and the HBK line feasted on 3rd line scrubs while Crosby had the top match ups doesnt mean Kessel was more valuable. =
 
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Random question—haven’t followed closely, but would any of the other 2016 candidates—Malkin, Kessel, Letang or Murray have been stronger than Crosby as a candidate?

Letang was the best skater on the team that run. Murray also deserved it more than Sid.

Kessel or Malkin were definitely not more impactful than Crosby.
 
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Theres not a single person who watched all the pens game in 2016 with half a brain who if given the choice of only having Kessel or Crosby that would chose Kessel. Just because Kessel and the HBK line feasted on 3rd line scrubs while Crosby had the top match ups doesnt mean Kessel was more valuable. This site is cancer.

I would have had zero issue with Kessel getting it, even thinking he deserved it. Watched every game, attended a Cup game, long time Penguins fan.
 
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If you're so mad about Crosby winning the Conn Smythe in 2016, just pretend he won the one in 2009 and still has 2 overall. Just use the same exact argument Capitals fans use to justify why Ovechkin deserved the Conn Smythe over Kuznetsov in 2018 and you have the rationale for why Crosby deserved the Conn Smythe over Malkin in 2009.

Letang was the best skater on the team that run. Murray also deserved it more than Sid.

Kessel or Malkin were definitely not more impactful than Crosby.

Letang would have been my vote as well. Also would have been cool in hindsight to see each of the big three having a Conn Smythe. I think Chicago did that with Toews, Kane and Keith IIRC.
 
I would have had zero issue with Kessel getting it, even thinking he deserved it. Watched every game, attended a Cup game, long time Penguins fan.
Thats not what I said though. Kessel certainly had a case but he wasnt robbed of it. What I said was that if you could of only had either Kessel or Crosby at the start of the playoffs are you really going with Kessel?
 
Pretty crazy that Ovi is gonna hit 894 faster than Gretzky, especially considering the scoring difference and the goalies. It's actually unbelievable what he's done.
 

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