Ovechkin passes Crosby for 17th all-time in points

[Midnight Judges]

Your claim is that "people are making excuses", meanwhile all you're doing is making excuses about how someone else "should have" won.

The number of times I've seen you complain about that Smythe is weird. It was a close race, it could have gone to Kessel, either player winning was fine - just line in 2018 where Kuznetsov could have easily won. It's been 7 years, get over it . It's clear who has been the better playoff player anyways, why bother trying so hard to retroactively make excuses for who "should have" won?

I don't know what you're talking about with excuses.

Crosby produced at a 21 goal / 65 point pace while not being particularly good at defense. Canadians wanted to give him an award and so they gave him an award. Bravo I guess. I dunno.

 

[Beau Knows]

I don't know what you're talking about with excuses.

It's not that complicated. Crosby won an award for playoff MVP, this clearly made you very upset, so ever since you need to make excuses for how someone else "should have" won it.

 

[yada]

I think it's a combo of Kessel being a beloved player, Crosby being a disliked player, and people stat-watching instead of watching the actual games.

To be fair im a fan of crosby and neutral on kessel but the conn smythe going to kessel wouldn't have been a robbery.

Personally i leaned crosby because of some of his late goals or being involved in game winners but i wasnt sure he was going to win. 2016 legitimately could have gone to either player. The 2016 conn smythe was similar to the 1984 conn smythe where the higher points scorer didnt win due to either feeling of being involved in clutch goals or leadership was more important then the point leader. 1984 would definitely be seen as the bigger robbery tho.

 

[yada]

Ovie led the NHL in GPG and PPG from 2005-2011.

There is no reason to make any excuses: He was clearly the best player in the world.

How does it make you feel to know crosby won the rocket richard twice over your hero. 2010 and 2017 ovechkin finished with less goals.

 

[beowulf]

To be fair im a fan of crosby and neutral on kessel but the conn smythe going to kessel wouldn't have been a robbery.

Personally i leaned crosby because of some of his late goals or being involved in game winners but i wasnt sure he was going to win. 2016 legitimately could have gone to either player. The 2016 conn smythe was similar to the 1984 conn smythe where the higher points scorer didnt win due to either feeling of being involved in clutch goals or leadership was more important then the point leader. 1984 would definitely be seen as the bigger robbery tho.

Indeed, looking at it that year Crosby had 3 GW in the playoffs and Kessel had 0 surprisingly and that can make a difference.

 

[Midnight Judges]

How does it make you feel to know crosby won the rocket richard twice over your hero. 2010 and 2017 ovechkin finished with less goals.

Ha!

Yep, even Ovie gets injured or suspended sometimes.

It's not that complicated. Crosby won an award for playoff MVP, this clearly made you very upset, so ever since you need to make excuses for how someone else "should have" won it.

Well yeah I think it's pretty close to an objective fact that the player who produced at a 103 point / 34 goal pace deserved the MVP over the player who produced at a 65 point / 21 goal pace.

 

[yada]

Ha!

Yep, even Ovie gets injured sometimes.

I really wouldnt be using injury as an excuse when you compare ovechkin vs crosby. Heres a hint, it doesn't favor ovechkin.

 

[norrisnick]

I really wouldnt be using injury as an excuse when you compare ovechkin vs crosby. Heres a hint, it doesn't favor ovechkin.

My guy gets hurt more! He's the best!

 

[Coffey]

They’d be stupid to start him in the D zone, that’s what the bottom 6 is for.

You don’t use your Ferrari to do what a truck does best, and vice versa.

You think this forum cares about offense oriented players?
See how many complaints there are about McDavid not playing defense enough.

 

[Beau Knows]

Well yeah I think it's pretty close to an objective fact that the player who produced at a 103 point / 34 goal pace deserved the MVP over the player who produced at a 65 point / 21 goal pace.

Couture? You know his team lost right? It generally takes a historic performance to win the award on a losing team.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Couture? You know his team lost right? It generally takes a historic performance to win the award on a losing team.

Yeah well he was way the hell better than Crosby that season.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yeah well he was way the hell better than Crosby that season.

You are aware that Kuznetsov outscored Ovechkin when Ovi got his Conn Smythe, right?

Capitals fans throwing stones at Crosby's 2016 Conn Smythe is hilarious after Ovi's 2018 Conn Smythe. Kuznetsov had 12 goals and 32 points in 24 games to Ovi's 15 goals and 27 points in 24 games, yet Ovi winning the Conn Smythe over Kuznetsov is fine while Crosby winning it over Kessel in 2016 is not fine?

 

[Beau Knows]

You are aware that Kuznetsov outscored Ovechkin when Ovi got his Conn Smythe, right?

Capitals fans throwing stones at Crosby's 2016 Conn Smythe is hilarious after Ovi's 2018 Conn Smythe. Kuznetsov had 12 goals and 32 points in 24 games to Ovi's 15 goals and 27 points in 24 games, yet Ovi winning the Conn Smythe over Kuznetsov is fine while Crosby winning it over Kessel in 2016 is not fine?

Kuznetsov also had a higher +/- than Ovechkin in that run too. Kind of weird that MJ hasn't mentioned that yet, but then again +/- only matters when it's useful for him.

 

[Midnight Judges]

You are aware that Kuznetsov outscored Ovechkin when Ovi got his Conn Smythe, right?

Capitals fans throwing stones at Crosby's 2016 Conn Smythe is hilarious after Ovi's 2018 Conn Smythe. Kuznetsov had 12 goals and 32 points in 24 games to Ovi's 15 goals and 27 points in 24 games, yet Ovi winning the Conn Smythe over Kuznetsov is fine while Crosby winning it over Kessel in 2016 is not fine?

Well yeah because Crosby produced at a 21 goal / 65 point pace - which is NOBODY's idea of MVP caliber play.

Ovechkin produced at a 51 goal / 91 point pace - which stacks up fine against MVP productivities, or is at least in the ballpark.

Sid was tied for 6th in points and tied for 12th in goals in those playoffs.

Ovechkin was 2nd in points and 1st in goals.

I get that Pens partisans want to pretend these two are the same thing. They aren't.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The Conn Smythe is not awarded relative to other years with how players perform, it's awarded relative to how players in that specific year perform. Was Crosby's 2016 a weak Conn Smythe? Yeah, of course because his performance was weak relative to others. But whether Crosby's Conn Smythe was warranted is based on how he did relative to others in that cup run. If you say that Crosby shouldn't have won it over Kessel because Kessel had more points, that same exact logic applies to Ovechkin winning it in 2018 over Kuznetsov.

It doesn't matter how Ovechkin's 2018 Conn Smythe compares to other Conn Smythes, what matters is whether Ovechkin was the best player in the playoffs in 2018. If you're saying Crosby didn't deserve it because Kessel outscored him, that same exact logic applies to Ovechkin and Kuznetsov.

Well yeah because Crosby produced at a 21 goal / 65 point pace - which is NOBODY's idea of MVP caliber play.

Ovechkin produced at a 51 goal / 91 point pace - which stacks up fine against the MVP productivities of Hall and McDavid.

Sid was tied for 6th in points and tied for 12th in goals.

Ovechkin was 2nd in points and 1st in goals.

I get that Pens partisans want to pretend these two are the same thing. They really aren't.

Guess what relevance that has? Literally nothing.

Whether Ovechkin deserved the Conn Smythe depends on 1 factor: was he the best player on that cup run? Ovechkin's performance could have been Conn Smythe worthy while he didn't deserve the Conn Smythe because someone else had a better run.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I don't even see why this is difficult. Back in 2009, Crosby had 15 goals and 31 points as the Penguins won the cup. That is objectively a Conn Smythe worthy performance. But Malkin had 14 goals and 36 points on that cup run, which is even better than Crosby's performance and he rightly won the Conn Smythe with that performance. Crosby's performance that year was Conn Smythe worthy relative to how others did, but he didn't deserve the Conn Smythe because someone was better. Awards aren't given out relative to past seasons or past performances, they're given out relative to that season/playoffs.

Ovechkin winning over Kuznetsov in 2018 is like if Crosby would have won the Conn Smythe over Malkin in 2009. Crosby's performance was absolutely on par with other winners, but that doesn't change the fact that Malkin outscored him by 5 points and he deserved the Conn Smythe more. No matter how you try to spin it, applying the logic of "players outscored him, so he didn't deserve the Conn Smythe" directly means that Ovechkin didn't deserve the Conn Smythe over Kuznetsov. Crosby and Malkin in 2009 parallel Kuznetsov and Ovechkin in 2018 extremely well in those playoff runs regarding production and Conn Smythe worthiness.

And before someone brings up "Malkin was better than Crosby was in the finals", Kuznetsov had 8 points in 5 games against Vegas in 2018 while Ovechkin had 5 points in 5 games.

By the way, I have no issue with Ovechkin winning it in 2018, although I do think that was more of a career accomplishment award and Kuznetsov had the better playoff run.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Guess what relevance that has? Literally nothing.

Whether Ovechkin deserved the Conn Smythe depends on 1 factor: was he the best player on that cup run? Ovechkin's performance could have been Conn Smythe worthy while he didn't deserve the Conn Smythe because someone else had a better run.

yeah that's gibberish.

It shows that the voters could have considered a defenseman like Letang - who played pretty well.

Regardless, Couture produced at a 103 point / 34 goal pace. He was objectively better than Sid's 65 point / 21 goal pace.

To argue that Crosby was better than Couture is like arguing that 2014 Ryan O'Reilly (64 points / 28 goals) should have won the Hart over 2014 Sidney Crosby in (104 points / 36 goals). The step down is enormous to the point where the argument is absurd.

I don't even see why this is difficult. Back in 2009, Crosby had 15 goals and 31 points as the Penguins won the cup. That is objectively a Conn Smythe worthy performance. But Malkin had 14 goals and 36 points on that cup run, which is even better than Crosby's performance and he rightly won the Conn Smythe with that performance. Crosby's performance that year was Conn Smythe worthy relative to how others did, but he didn't deserve the Conn Smythe because someone was better. Awards aren't given out relative to past seasons or past performances, they're given out relative to that season/playoffs.

Ovechkin winning over Kuznetsov in 2018 is like if Crosby would have won the Conn Smythe over Malkin in 2009. Crosby's performance was absolutely on par with other winners, but that doesn't change the fact that Malkin outscored him by 5 points and he deserved the Conn Smythe more. No matter how you try to spin it, applying the logic of "players outscored him, so he didn't deserve the Conn Smythe" directly means that Ovechkin didn't deserve the Conn Smythe over Kuznetsov.

No it doesn't, because there are other factors.

In the case of Ovechkin, his physicality was a big part of the game plan. And it was teams focusing on Ovechkin that enabled Kuznetsov to run free in the first place.

Kuznetsov played great but he brings offense and nothing else (actually lately he's been contributing on the PK but he didn't back then).

 

[Rodgerwilco]

Forget it. Lol

 

[Beau Knows]

This inability to understand how the Conn Smythe trophy is awarded is bizarre.

 

[Empoleon8771]

No it doesn't, because there are other factors.

In the case of Ovechkin, his physicality was a big part of the game plan. And it was teams focusing on Ovechkin that enabled Kuznetsov to run free in the first place.

Kuznetsov played great but he brings offense and nothing else (actually lately he's been contributing on the PK but he didn't back then).

So basically, you're just going to pull whatever you can out of your ass to justify your opinions, regardless of consistency.

Let me just ask this, who deserved the 2009 Conn Smythe between Crosby and Malkin? Here are their numbers next to Kuznetsov and Ovechkin:

Crosby: 24 games, 15 goals and 31 points, +9
Malkin: 24 games, 14 goals and 36 points, +3
Kuznetsov: 24 games, 12 goals and 32 points, +12
Ovechkin: 24 games, 15 goals and 27 points, +8

Literally any argument you can make for Ovechkin in terms of production here can be directly applied to Crosby in 2009. Crosby took the more difficult matchups in 2009 that opened up opportunities for Malkin, and offered physicality/gritty play that Malkin didn't offer. Crosby had more goals than Malkin and had a "MVP caliber" run. Crosby didn't lead the playoffs in points and was outscored by Malkin in the cup finals, just like Ovechkin didn't lead the playoffs in points and was outscored by Kuznetsov in the finals.

 

[innitfam]

How does it make you feel to know crosby won the rocket richard twice over your hero. 2010 and 2017 ovechkin finished with less goals.

Weird flex considering that Ovechkin has 9 Rockets and 9 50 goal seasons.

 

[Midnight Judges]

So basically, you're just going to pull whatever you can out of your ass to justify your opinions, regardless of consistency.

Let me just ask this, who deserved the 2009 Conn Smythe between Crosby and Malkin? Here are their numbers next to Kuznetsov and Ovechkin:

Crosby: 24 games, 15 goals and 31 points, +9
Malkin: 24 games, 14 goals and 36 points, +3
Kuznetsov: 24 games, 12 goals and 32 points, +12
Ovechkin: 24 games, 15 goals and 27 points, +8

Literally any argument you can make for Ovechkin in terms of production here can be directly applied to Crosby in 2009. Crosby took the more difficult matchups in 2009 that opened up opportunities for Malkin, and offered physicality/gritty play that Malkin didn't offer. Crosby had more goals than Malkin and had a "MVP caliber" run. Crosby didn't lead the playoffs in points and was outscored by Malkin in the cup finals, just like Ovechkin didn't lead the playoffs in points and was outscored by Kuznetsov in the finals.

Ovechkin's physicality is a huge differentiator, and Ovechkin being the greatest goal scorer of all time opens up opportunities for anyone who plays on his line - which is why Backstrom or Kuznetsov's productivity often hinges on if they're playing with him.

The Capitals are known for a heavy game. That certainly isn't because of Kuznetsov (lol). It was Ovechkin, Wilson, Orpik clogging up the middle and crushing people who went there. That was key to the game 6 and 7 shutouts of the Lightning in the conference finals. It was key to winning 4 straight against a Golden Knights team that sliced through the west going 12-4.

Kuznetsov is the opposite of physical and defense isn't his thing either.

I'm not aware of any differentiator in physicality between Crosby and Malkin, nor have I ever heard anyone assert it. I think you just made that up because you desire to have an equivalent point here.

I have heard people say Crosby took the more difficult match-ups in the 2009 finals. And that's fine. That's certainly worth something. But that's what Ovechkin has faced his entire career because he never had a second line that was remotely as productive as his own. Although frankly I'm pretty sure you guys exaggerate it. I can't imagine a coach removing his best defensive pairing from a defensive zone draw on the basis that it's "only" Evgeny Malkin. That certainly isn't what I observe then I watch the games.

Point is, if you want to argue that it ought to have been Crosby in 2009, I think you've got a reasonable case. Surely they were close. -Far more reasonable than pretending he was better than Logan Couture in 2016.

 

[MeHateHe]

In another forum, they're discussing old alt.hockey posts. I remember those days, with one guy adamant that Eric Lindros had by 1996 established himself as superior in every way to Wayne Gretzky, whose career (for all you kids out there) was beginning to wind down.

I don't know why I thought of that right now, but I had a dream that someone was trying to argue that Logan Couture deserved the Conn Smythe in 2016.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

The Conn Smythe has been awarded 54 times. A forward on the losing team has won it a grand total of once (Reggie Leach, who set the all-time record for goals, and led his team in scoring by 50%). And it's never happened in the four-round era. (In the 37 times it's been awarded in the four-round era, it's gone to a player on the losing team twice - both times goalies).

There are plenty of instances where the leading scorer was on the losing team, and didn't win the Conn Smythe. Going back to 1980 (the start of the four-round era), this happened in 1983, 1986, 1993, 1995, 1997, 1999, 2000, 2002, 2007, 2010, 2016, and 2022 (plus a couple of years where there were ties, which I'm not going to bother with).

I've stated numerous times that Crosby's 2016 Conn Smythe was one of the weakest in NHL history, at least going back to 1980. But it isn't unusual that the voters didn't give it to a forward on the losing team. Couture didn't have a historic performance (unless someone wants to argue that Daniel Briere had a historic performance a few years earlier), so he had no case for winning the Smythe.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I've stated numerous times that Crosby's 2016 Conn Smythe was one of the weakest in NHL history, at least going back to 1980. But it isn't unusual that the voters didn't give it to a forward on the losing team. Couture didn't have a historic performance (unless someone wants to argue that Daniel Briere had a historic performance a few years earlier), so he had no case for winning the Smythe.

Yeah, this is spot on. Crosby's 2016 Conn Smythe was objectively a weak performance, but that entire cup run was an entire team rather than 1 standout player.

You could have given it to any of Letang, Crosby or Kessel and had a legitimate case. Hell, even Murray had a case himself. That's why the voting was something like 9-7 Crosby over Kessel.