Ovechkin milestone thread - 850 and Beyond!

[shtorm2005]

He also had a nice one on the Draisaitl goal

He doesn't like easy wins

 

[andrjusha]

Ovechkin is #11 all-time by primary points

Will be top-10 soon, similar to hockey-reference Goals Created

NHL & WHA Career Leaders and Records for Goals Created | Hockey-Reference.com

1. Wayne Gretzky (1018.37), 2. Gordie Howe (747.01), 3. Jaromír Jágr (717.53), 4. Mark Messier (703.78), 5. Marcel Dionne (684.08), 6. Steve Yzerman (665.79), 7. Alex Ovechkin (653.87), 8. Mario Lemieux (649.71), 9. Ron Francis (634.65), 10. Phil Esposito (629.66)

www.hockey-reference.com

OV is 11th behind Sakic, Crosby is 29th (needs moar goals).

 

[SkinsFan09]

I see this as directly supporting my argument that Ovi is Hull 2.0, yet it feels like you posted this to try to own my argument with stats or something.

So how is it not fair to say that Ovi is a better version of Brett Hull? Who is a better 2.0 version of?

I put their stat lines together, can you tell me which is which without names? (Obviously you can because Ovi passed him for goals, but I'm making a point)

View attachment 604927

The point is Ovechkin is a significantly better player than Brett Hull who never finished top 10 in assists, had a much shorter goal scoring peak, and just from the eye test had nowhere near the dynamic skating
ability Ovechkin had from 2005-15.

Ovechkin is not a better version of anyone, he is his own unique talent just like Crosby, Malkin, McDavid and everyone else playing. To simply look at stat lines is incredibly lazy. This is hockey there's only two primary offensive stats - goals and assists. You can only tell so much about players from that.

 

[Toby91ca]

The point is Ovechkin is a significantly better player than Brett Hull who never finished top 10 in assists, had a much shorter goal scoring peak, and just from the eye test had nowhere near the dynamic skating
ability Ovechkin had from 2005-15.

Ovechkin is not a better version of anyone, he is his own unique talent just like Crosby, Malkin, McDavid and everyone else playing. To simply look at stat lines is incredibly lazy. This is hockey there's only two primary offensive stats - goals and assists. You can only tell so much about players from that.

Firstly, I agree with your comments, but Hull and Ovechkin are more similar than you suggest....forget about stats, just watching them play.

Ovechkin is/was, without a doubt, the best skater than Hull, but that's not what made/makes him great. What makes Ovechkin great is similar to what made Hull great.

Put it this way, if you look at a highlight real of every one of Gretzky's goals, Hull's goals and Ovechkin's goals......2 of those player's goals would look a lot more similar than the other...that's all.

Perhaps someone else is trying to make them seem more similar than they are, but don't entirely discredit the similarities that exist.

 

[SkinsFan09]

Firstly, I agree with your comments, but Hull and Ovechkin are more similar than you suggest....forget about stats, just watching them play.

Ovechkin is/was, without a doubt, the best skater than Hull, but that's not what made/makes him great. What makes Ovechkin great is similar to what made Hull great.

Put it this way, if you look at a highlight real of every one of Gretzky's goals, Hull's goals and Ovechkin's goals......2 of those player's goals would look a lot more similar than the other...that's all.

Perhaps someone else is trying to make them seem more similar than they are, but don't entirely discredit the similarities that exist.

Yes they both have/had howitzer's but Brett Hull didn't spend 5-8 years routinely taking the puck from end to end and putting it in the back of the net. Ovechkin won those MVPs and Lindsay's because of his ability to drive offensive play by himself with his ridiculous speed and acceleration.

He has settled into more of a Hull-type player (still a better passer) in the latter stages of his career but his prime he was much more well-rounded in how he could create goals and opportunities.

 

[Toby91ca]

Yes they both have/had howitzer's but Brett Hull didn't spend 5-8 years routinely taking the puck from end to end and putting it in the back of the net. Ovechkin won those MVPs and Lindsay's because of his ability to drive offensive play by himself with his ridiculous speed and acceleration.

He has settled into more of a Hull-type player (still a better passer) in the latter stages of his career but his prime he was much more well-rounded in how he could create goals and opportunities.

Like I said, I don't disagree, I'm probably slighting Hull more than I should, but I'm giving him the treatment a lot of people give Ovechkin now.....standing there and one-timing it from the faceoff circle. There is some truth to that now about Ovi and Hull....just can't remember enough of Hull's game, but I do know for sure, he was never a good skater, never made the plays that Ovechkin used to make....again, shouldn't say never as most of what I saw of Hull was just highlights, never played for a team I watched that much.

The highlighted part, is that really true of Ovechkin though? Spent 5-8 years routinely skating end to end and scoring? I've watched a lot of his games, but definitely not most of them, so I'm actually asking curiously as I don't remember seeing many of that in highlights.....he certainly scored some highlight reel goals, but don't think that bolded part was a big part of his game.

 

[Randyne]

He also had a nice one on the Draisaitl goal

It was pinball bouncing puck not a pass

 

[SkinsFan09]

Like I said, I don't disagree, I'm probably slighting Hull more than I should, but I'm giving him the treatment a lot of people give Ovechkin now.....standing there and one-timing it from the faceoff circle. There is some truth to that now about Ovi and Hull....just can't remember enough of Hull's game, but I do know for sure, he was never a good skater, never made the plays that Ovechkin used to make....again, shouldn't say never as most of what I saw of Hull was just highlights, never played for a team I watched that much.

The highlighted part, is that really true of Ovechkin though? Spent 5-8 years routinely skating end to end and scoring? I've watched a lot of his games, but definitely not most of them, so I'm actually asking curiously as I don't remember seeing many of that in highlights.....he certainly scored some highlight reel goals, but don't think that bolded part was a big part of his game.

From 2005-10 he was a highlight machine. The rate of highlight end to end goals dropped after that but was still solid through 2014-15 when he was MVP runner-up. Post-2015 is the find a soft spot and hammer it home Ovechkin we're used to now with the occasional highlight. He seemed to have a lot of his old speed back the first half of last year but as time wore on that dissipated.

We're actually getting to a point where a lot of hockey fans on the younger side don't really remember his prime and how different it was to what we see now.

 

[Fantomas]

Will be top-10 soon, similar to hockey-reference Goals Created

NHL & WHA Career Leaders and Records for Goals Created | Hockey-Reference.com

1. Wayne Gretzky (1018.37), 2. Gordie Howe (747.01), 3. Jaromír Jágr (717.53), 4. Mark Messier (703.78), 5. Marcel Dionne (684.08), 6. Steve Yzerman (665.79), 7. Alex Ovechkin (653.87), 8. Mario Lemieux (649.71), 9. Ron Francis (634.65), 10. Phil Esposito (629.66)

www.hockey-reference.com

OV is 11th behind Sakic, Crosby is 29th (needs moar goals).

Goals created is actually not very meaningful because it is not adjusted to the scoring context.

Ovechkin is 4th all time in adjusted goals created, 10 spots higher than Lemieux.

NHL & WHA Career Leaders and Records for Adjusted Goals Created | Hockey-Reference.com

 

[Toby91ca]

Goals created is actually not very meaningful because it is not adjusted to the scoring context.

Ovechkin is 4th all time in adjusted goals created, 10 spots higher than Lemieux.

NHL & WHA Career Leaders and Records for Adjusted Goals Created | Hockey-Reference.com

Gotta be honest....goals created is close to a pretty stupid stat to begin with...I know thought went into it, but it's so random....goals + 0.5 * assists * team goals divided by team goals, etc., etc.....why? why? Why 0.5 and not 0.2 or 0.3 or 0.8....it's complete nonsense.

Completely hypothetical....say player A picks up the puck in his own end, skates end to end with it, going through 5 guys and then circles the offensive zone 5 times, going through 5 defenders another 5 times while he tries to find the perfect opening....finally is able to get it over to player B who has just be standing there at the side of the net....he's able to just put his stick on the ice and tap it in. Both player A and player B have 1 point each (no other assists and that's the only goal scored in total by the team). This stat will show goals created by player A of 0.33 and by player B of 0.67....makes no sense.

EDIT....I know what people are trying to do with certain stats, but you just can't do it mathematically, you just have to watch the games and the players to figure out who's creating the goals.

 

[canuckking1]

Ovechkin is #11 all-time by primary points

#	Player	Primary P
1​	Wayne Gretzky	2218​
2​	Gordie Howe	1547​
3​	Jaromir Jagr	1450​
4​	Mark Messier	1445​
5​	Marcel Dionne	1393​
6​	Ron Francis	1346​
7​	Mario Lemieux	1344​
8​	Steve Yzerman	1342​
9​	Phil Esposito	1273​
10​	Joe Sakic	1202​
11​	Alexander Ovechkin	1179​
12​	Teemu Selanne	1177​
13​	Dale Hawerchuk	1132​
14​	Brett Hull	1129​
15​	Stan Mikita	1126​
16​	Joe Thornton	1113​
17​	Mark Recchi	1108​
18​	Mike Gartner	1091​
19​	Doug Gilmour	1084​
20​	Luc Robitaille	1083​
21​	Brendan Shanahan	1083​
22​	Sidney Crosby	1078​
23​	Mats Sundin	1076​
24​	Johnny Bucyk	1075​
25​	Dave Andreychuk	1071​
26​	Bryan Trottier	1066​
27​	Jari Kurri	1064​
28​	Denis Savard	1056​
29​	Mike Modano	1054​
30​	Jarome Iginla	1054​

Secondary Sid all the way down at 22

 

[Fantomas]

Gotta be honest....goals created is close to a pretty stupid stat to begin with...I know thought went into it, but it's so random....goals + 0.5 * assists * team goals divided by team goals, etc., etc.....why? why? Why 0.5 and not 0.2 or 0.3 or 0.8....it's complete nonsense.

Completely hypothetical....say player A picks up the puck in his own end, skates end to end with it, going through 5 guys and then circles the offensive zone 5 times, going through 5 defenders another 5 times while he tries to find the perfect opening....finally is able to get it over to player B who has just be standing there at the side of the net....he's able to just put his stick on the ice and tap it in. Both player A and player B have 1 point each (no other assists and that's the only goal scored in total by the team). This stat will show goals created by player A of 0.33 and by player B of 0.67....makes no sense.

There's a lot of literature on this, but the one thing worth saying in response to your post is this: an exception is not the rule.

 

[Toby91ca]

There's a lot of literature on this, but the one thing worth saying in response to your post is this: an exception is not the rule.

Yes, but the "rule" you suggest isn't really the rule either. I'm a huge math and stats guy myself, but you can only take such analysis so far....you really need to watch the games at some point

 

[Fantomas]

Yes, but the "rule" you suggest isn't really the rule either. I'm a huge math and stats guy myself, but you can only take such analysis so far....you really need to watch the games at some point

You're kinda putting words in my mouth. You won't find a post where I say that adjusted goals created is the perfect all-encompassing stat.

I do think it's better than raw stats and more contextual than goals created. If this bothers you then I'm very sorry to hear it.

It is kind of funny that you claim to be a "math guy" and think that one unique instance of a scoring play is statistically meaningful. Did you graduate from Bob Jones University?

 

[TJHKY]

 

[andrjusha]

Today is battle for #17/18 in all-time points, both are 2pts behind Trottier for #17.

 

[wetcoast]

Can't wait to see that assist reposted a thousand times whenever Midnight Judges hears somebody say Ovechkin isn't a playmaker.

You just had to go there didn't you?

 

[wetcoast]

Today is battle for #17/18 in all-time points, both are 2pts behind Trottier for #17.

Ironically Crosby got an assist tonight but that being said Ovi is up or down to (-11) and maybe who knows he meat beat his personal best this year eh?

 

[george14]

Keeping track of Ovi this season to see if he breaks his fellow Caps alum Bill Mikkelson’s record of -82.

 

[filinski77]

Ironically Crosby got an assist tonight but that being said Ovi is up or down to (-11) and maybe who knows he meat beat his personal best this year eh?

It's so hilarious how much time you spend coming in a milestone thread, to simply throw random insults around that have nothing to do with the purpose of this thread. You make so many posts that come across with the sole purpose of just shitting on a hockey player.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

It's so hilarious how much time you spend coming in a milestone thread, to simply throw random insults around that have nothing to do with the purpose of this thread. You make so many posts that come across with the sole purpose of just shitting on a hockey player.

This is a milestone thread for OV. He's tracking to be a contender for worst single season +/- ever. How is that not noteworthy?

 

[winnipegger]

Firstly, I agree with your comments, but Hull and Ovechkin are more similar than you suggest....forget about stats, just watching them play.

Ovechkin is/was, without a doubt, the best skater than Hull, but that's not what made/makes him great. What makes Ovechkin great is similar to what made Hull great.

Put it this way, if you look at a highlight real of every one of Gretzky's goals, Hull's goals and Ovechkin's goals......2 of those player's goals would look a lot more similar than the other...that's all.

Perhaps someone else is trying to make them seem more similar than they are, but don't entirely discredit the similarities that exist.

Aside from both having a great shot they don't play the same way at all. Tonight against Pittsburgh Ovi f***ing destroyed like 3 different players with huge body checks. Ovechkin is a physical specimen and is intimidating to play against. Hull just sat there and clapped bombs. Glorified Danny Heatly.

 

[Toby91ca]

Aside from both having a great shot they don't play the same way at all. Tonight against Pittsburgh Ovi f***ing destroyed like 3 different players with huge body checks. Ovechkin is a physical specimen and is intimidating to play against. Hull just sat there and clapped bombs. Glorified Danny Heatly.

I saw the game last night and he’s, Ovi threw big hits, but aside from that he did not look good at all….floated around most of the game….he’s getting extreme power play time 6+ min when next highest on team was 4 min

 

[Rengorlex]

Aside from both having a great shot they don't play the same way at all. Tonight against Pittsburgh Ovi f***ing destroyed like 3 different players with huge body checks. Ovechkin is a physical specimen and is intimidating to play against. Hull just sat there and clapped bombs. Glorified Danny Heatly.

Was a solid -2 too and -13 on the season already

 

[Kuz]

Was a solid -2 too and -13 on the season already

Yeah another eng against. He has 5 or 6 of those this year. Caps is bad this year and missed their two best defencemen in Orlov and Carlson and some of their best wingers in the defensive zone in Oshie, Brown and Wilson.