Ovechkin milestone thread - 850 and Beyond!

[Sentinel]

I rate Hull as one of the greatest goal-scorers of all time, and I'm saying Ovi is a better version of him.

It wasn't an insult. Brett Hull is one of the greatest players of all time (most put him Top 50 or so I think) and I'm saying Ovi is the 2.0 version of him. It's like if I said McDavid is Crosby 2.0 (I wouldn't, but for comparisons sake).

All I'm saying is that Ovi is one of, if not the, greatest goal scorers of all time, but his all-around game eliminates him from the conversation of Top 5 overall.

I don't care if you disagree, it doesn't make me upset, but there's nothing that's going to convince me, having watched a fair bit of Ovi over his career, that he's a Top 5. You simply can't be a Top 5 if you don't backcheck for your first decade in the league in my books. Trotz helped him a lot in the mid 2010s, but I don't know how you can call a guy who was an acknowledged defensive liability a Top 5 all-time player just because of goal scoring.



I'd say I don't have "favorite" offensive players that I'm emotionally tied to if anyone challenges their defensive prowess.

Sorry, did Lemieux backcheck in the first half of his career or the second?

 

[Fantomas]

I rate Hull as one of the greatest goal-scorers of all time, and I'm saying Ovi is a better version of him.

It wasn't an insult. Brett Hull is one of the greatest players of all time (most put him Top 50 or so I think) and I'm saying Ovi is the 2.0 version of him. It's like if I said McDavid is Crosby 2.0 (I wouldn't, but for comparisons sake).

All I'm saying is that Ovi is one of, if not the, greatest goal scorers of all time, but his all-around game eliminates him from the conversation of Top 5 overall.

I don't care if you disagree, it doesn't make me upset, but there's nothing that's going to convince me, having watched a fair bit of Ovi over his career, that he's a Top 5. You simply can't be a Top 5 if you don't backcheck for your first decade in the league in my books. Trotz helped him a lot in the mid 2010s, but I don't know how you can call a guy who was an acknowledged defensive liability a Top 5 all-time player just because of goal scoring.



I'd say I don't have "favorite" offensive players that I'm emotionally tied to if anyone challenges their defensive prowess.

You could say I'm a Matthews fan, but I think the media's overhyped his 2-way play. I think he's solid, but if you think he's completely overrated and actually bottom 1/5th in the league, I couldn't care less. Show me some data or film with enough sample that backs it up, and sure, maybe I'll buy it

Everyone and their dog knows that the top 4 is its own tier and has been set for a really long time, while #5 is wide open and there is about a dozen players is contention for it, each of them with their own set of flaws - Ovechkin being one of them.

There's no such thing as a 'top 5' and this won't change unless McDavid gets there and he hasn't done that yet.

Sorry, did Lemieux backcheck in the first half of his career or the second?

Lemieux didn't, Bobby Hull didn't, Wayne didn't, the list goes on.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Sorry, did Lemieux backcheck in the first half of his career or the second?

They were on the ice for 160 goals against some seasons. Helluva back check there from Mario and Wayne lol.

 

[WarriorofTime]

They were on the ice for 160 goals against some seasons. Helluva back check there from Mario and Wayne lol.

Weird, I was told the whole reason the 80s were so high scoring is because of Gretzky and Lemieux. So kinda odd they'd be on the ice for so many goals against, right?

 

[Zuluss]

FWIW, here is the list of all pro goals, including international tournaments and playoffs

The Real Career NHL Goal-Scoring Leaders

Tom Tango keeps reminding me of this, and he's right: why do we only count regular season goals in a player's career total? Why don't playoff goals – against tougher competition – count? And why do we…

www.arcticicehockey.com

Jagr's numbers are quite a bit off, because the list is old, and maybe we even have to count his Kladno goals, at least in the top Czech league.

Ovechkin currently sits at 959 pro goals (787 RS + 72 PO + 55 KHL + 45 NT). That probably puts him at #4 all-time behind Bobby Hull (1030 pro goals) and 139 pro goals behind Gretzky, who is narrowly ahead of Howe.

Edit: Jagr is at 1072 pro goals atm: 766 RS + 78 PO + 82 KHL + 99 Czech + 47 NT (Czech 2 was not counted, Euroliga was), so Ovechkin is still #5 in pro goals.

 

[Regal]

It's like saying IPhone is Nokia 2.0

If Ovechkin played all 82 games he would have 3 Rosses (top PPG 3 years in a row)

Hull never had top PPG his best was #3 playing with Oates who factored in up to 60% of his points. And Oates wasn't a product of Brett, Adam peaked when he left to Boston.
Ovi won top PPG 3 times in a row against Sid Malkin monster duo, they bumped each other points up 30-40%

Wtf is this lol

 

[Regal]

Weird, I was told the whole reason the 80s were so high scoring is because of Gretzky and Lemieux. So kinda odd they'd be on the ice for so many goals against, right?

I mean that’s obviously untrue about the era being higher scoring because of them, but a lot of those goals are from being on the PK and scored short handed against while on the PP. The number of special teams goals were far higher on both sides and their usage was much different than stars today, so the total looks much higher than what they’d be giving up isolated to ES or 5v5.

 

[Toby91ca]

They were on the ice for 160 goals against some seasons. Helluva back check there from Mario and Wayne lol.

Where do you find this stat…not doubting, just questioning.

In terms of overall, I’m guessing some are referencing overall offensive ability (point producers), not just goal scorers. The best overall players in terms of adding defence would have never scored enough to be anywhere near top players ever.

I think that’s what made Fedorov quite an anomaly…that 1993-94 year, he could very have been both the best offensive forward and best defensive forward…heck, he probably could have won a Norris if you played him on D for a year

 

[Toby91ca]

I mean that’s obviously untrue about the era being higher scoring because of them, but a lot of those goals are from being on the PK and scored short handed against while on the PP. The number of special teams goals were far higher on both sides and their usage was much different than stars today, so the total looks much higher than what they’d be giving up isolated to ES or 5v5.

Obviously scoring was higher in the 80’s not because of Gretzky, but he did certainly help boost it. He had 6 years in a row where he was 70-75 points ahead of #2 scorer…that is domination almost unimaginable….certainly proves he wasn’t simply a product of the 80’s high scoring.

By the way, the 70’s was a very high scoring era as well

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Precisely. Except even in our universe, Gretzky scored 1072 goals (NHL + WHA, including playoffs) and Howe scored, I believe, 1071.

I can (partly) vouch for this.

It's true that Gretzky scored 1,072 "professional" goals (which consists of all regular season and playoff goals in the NHL and WHA). And Howe had scored 1,071 goals (using the same definition). And although I can't provide a source, I clearly remember Gretzky stating that he was proud of getting this record.

That being said - as far as I'm aware, Gretzky never said that he was going to play until he reached 1,072 goals. (My guess, and this is only a guess, is that it was a nice bit of statistical trivia that he found out about after the fact).

It's also something of a Frankenstein calculation. It doesn't include all the goals Gretzky scored in the various Canada Cup tournaments. On the other, and more significantly, it doesn't take the scoring environment into account. Any calculation of era-adjusted goals would have Howe significantly ahead of Gretzky.

 

[Regal]

Obviously scoring was higher in the 80’s not because of Gretzky, but he did certainly help boost it. He had 6 years in a row where he was 70-75 points ahead of #2 scorer…that is domination almost unimaginable….certainly proves he wasn’t simply a product of the 80’s high scoring.

By the way, the 70’s was a very high scoring era as well

No doubt Gretzky’s numbers are awesome even when the era is taken into account, but even removing every goal Gretzky had a point on in a single season has very little effect on league wide scoring. In ‘86 for example, there was 6667 goals scored, or 3.87 per game for each team on average. If we take away Gretzky’s 215 goals he helped create, there’s still an average of 3.75 goals per game per team.

 

[filinski77]

No doubt Gretzky’s numbers are awesome even when the era is taken into account, but even removing every goal Gretzky had a point on in a single season has very little effect on league wide scoring. In ‘86 for example, there was 6667 goals scored, or 3.87 per game for each team on average. If we take away Gretzky’s 215 goals he helped create, there’s still an average of 3.75 goals per game per team.

Plus, you can't even just remove Gretzky's points completely, as you'd be eliminating all of the ice-time that he played in that season. Surely, a top-line of elite players (without one of them being Gretzky) still put up 100+ points and end up cutting that difference in half.

 

[Toby91ca]

Plus, you can't even just remove Gretzky's points completely, as you'd be eliminating all of the ice-time that he played in that season. Surely, a top-line of elite players (without one of them being Gretzky) still put up 100+ points and end up cutting that difference in half.

My point was more about not discounting Gretzky simply because he played in the 80’s…obviously 1 player can’t drive league wide scoring up that much.

Some perspective, if you want to adjust for scoring difference…Gretzky’s 205 points in 74 games in 1984 would be the equivalent of 185 points in 82 games this year…that’s pretty good.

 

[wetcoast]

I think Ovechkin is Brett Hull 2.0, nothing more.

He’s so far away from being a complete player over his career the idea of him #5 seems certifiable to me, but agree to disagree.

He is easily better than Brett Hull though right?

The case for Ovi as #5 all time begins with goal scored but then quickly ends given context and overall play.

Still a legit argument for top 10 of all time easily though.

Trying to think of the highest ranked player with a good overall game. Lidstrom? It sure as hell wasn't anyone currently considered top 5....

Bobby Orr?

 

[YippieKaey]

I rate Hull as one of the greatest goal-scorers of all time, and I'm saying Ovi is a better version of him.

It wasn't an insult. Brett Hull is one of the greatest players of all time (most put him Top 50 or so I think) and I'm saying Ovi is the 2.0 version of him. It's like if I said McDavid is Crosby 2.0 (I wouldn't, but for comparisons sake).

All I'm saying is that Ovi is one of, if not the, greatest goal scorers of all time, but his all-around game eliminates him from the conversation of Top 5 overall.

I don't care if you disagree, it doesn't make me upset, but there's nothing that's going to convince me, having watched a fair bit of Ovi over his career, that he's a Top 5. You simply can't be a Top 5 if you don't backcheck for your first decade in the league in my books. Trotz helped him a lot in the mid 2010s, but I don't know how you can call a guy who was an acknowledged defensive liability a Top 5 all-time player just because of goal scoring.



I'd say I don't have "favorite" offensive players that I'm emotionally tied to if anyone challenges their defensive prowess.

You could say I'm a Matthews fan, but I think the media's overhyped his 2-way play. I think he's solid, but if you think he's completely overrated and actually bottom 1/5th in the league, I couldn't care less. Show me some data or film with enough sample that backs it up, and sure, maybe I'll buy it

Have you heard about Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux? Especially the latter was very far removed from backchecking

 

[SeanMoneyHands]

 

[Randyne]

Wtf is this lol

I was replying to

If Crosby played all 82 games the year Ovi won his Art Ross, who knows if Ovi would have won it, they were scoring at the same pace

Ovechkin outpaced Sid who played with Malkin who factored in 44% of Sid points that year.
Ovi outpaced not only Sid but Sid+Malkin duo, 2 of 3 best players in the league played in one team.
If there wasn't Malkin Sid would've lost many awards in his career.
2006-07 season Malkin factored in 32% of Sid totals.
Sid production is lower when Malkin is out and Malkin production is much higher when Sid is out.

 

[gtrower]

 

[AlexBrovechkin8]

Ovi quietly up to a 47 goal pace through (almost) 14 games with six goals in his last eight games. At age 37.

 

[filinski77]

Ovi quietly up to a 47 goal pace through (almost) 14 games with six goals in his last eight games. At age 37.

Nope. He’s terrible. He gets too much ice time, shoots too much, and does nothing but score goals.

He doesn’t deserve his ice time and opportunities at all, and McMichael should be receiving ice time instead of Ovi.

 

[TJHKY]

 

[Sinistril]

You have to think there's only one way this record doesn't get broken...

 

[MBH]

Ovie is a beast.
Best goal scorer in hockey history.
He didn't spend his career shooting at 5'6 circus clowns.

 

[TJHKY]

 

[Video Nasty]

Crazy how he’s a minus 11 on the season already.