Ovechkin milestone thread - 850 and Beyond!

[wetcoast]

It is hilarious how much time you spend in this thread trying to shit on Ovechkin and push him down the list of All Time Greats.

Do you really have nothing better to do? Job, girlfriend / wife / family, social life? Nope?

Are you looking in a mirror as you aren't bringing any arguments here.

There is no pushing down of any player but rather placement on overall play but then again some guys seem to look at the all time goal list specifically for one player when making their lists then not being consistent then start to cry when challenged on a very weak foundation.

 

[apparentlyclueless]

Peak Ovechkin was 3 straight Lindsays, and leading the league in points/gp and goals/gp in all 3 of those years.

He arguably has the best peak since Lemieux and Jagr, yet you say he's the 5th best Russian peak? That's ludicrous.

Yeah. If Ovechkin and his father (he missed two games in 2008 because he went back home to see his father who was in a hospital) were completely healthy in 2007-2010 he most likely would have three consecutive years of winning all of Ross, Richard, Lindsay and Hart.

People forget, but his peak was absolutely dominant. No other Russian comes close.

 

[wetcoast]

People seem to confuse career with prime or peak. If we are talking about career I have a hard time seeing Ovi not in the top 10 at minimum. His goal scoring dominance is Big 4 light. 9 Rockets are perfect in line with what Gretzky and Howe did and what Mario and Orr would have did if not for injuries. Except Ovi is of course not as dominant overall. But nevertheless from a individual standpoint maybe you can argue Hasek or Jagr had a “better” trophy case, but that’s it IMO (as of now). In no world 5 Wingers had a better career than Ovi.

For prime or better peak performance/talent for one game or a short period of time I would take maybe 4 Russians alone from the last 20/30 years over Ovechkin. Clearly I take peak Fedorov over peak Ovi. I would also take peak Malkin over peak Ovi. Maybe even peak Datsyuk and peak Bure (but both debatable in my eyes). IMO Ovi is not close to the most talented players ever. But he clearly has one of the absolute top individual careers ever. In my eyes with his goal scoring dominance as I said a light Big 4 and the deserved fifth place in the all time ranking.

Agree with some of the points here and it's a decent argument but 5th all time isn't really a strong argument as it seems to be based on goals which came at the expense of overall play but the argument for goals is all that's going on for some and that's a weak foundation on a claim IMO.

 

[Calderon]

Yeah. If Ovechkin and his father (he missed two games in 2008 because he went back home to see his father who was in a hospital) were completely healthy in 2007-2010 he most likely would have three consecutive years of winning all of Ross, Richard, Lindsay and Hart.

People forget, but his peak was absolutely dominant. No other Russian comes close.

Agreed. Prime maybe, but peak-wise it's very hard to take any Russians over Ovi.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Also Messier over Ovechkin even 2018 is embarrassing for a poll of that nature, he had no case then and certainly doesn't have one now. Ovechkin is a consensus top 10 player along with Crosby and neither are done yet.

It is embarrassing. Several of the history forum regulars routinely posted blatant falsehoods about Ovechkin, and the guys who didn't had no interest in correcting them.

Between the Pens fans and the Crosby fans/Russia haters, it's just not a forum where Ovechkin is ever going to get a fair shake.

One 'highly respected' history forum regular claims Ryan Getzlaf is better than Ovechkin. Another claimed Ovechkin would have been the 8th or 9th greatest player on the 1956 Habs. Several of them claimed Ovechkin is a "shoot-only" player despite him being top 4 in hits and top 10 in assists during his career. None of the regulars corrected these falsehoods, despite appearing to be otherwise knowledgeable about hockey.

Interestingly, they ranked Bobby Hull 5th and Ovechkin 22nd, despite the fact that Ovechkin compares to his much-more-competitive era quite similarly to Hull.

Ovechkin's ranking made about as much sense as ranking Toews above Malkin - which actually makes perfect sense once you understand the biases involved.

 

[Deebs]

Yeah. If Ovechkin and his father (he missed two games in 2008 because he went back home to see his father who was in a hospital) were completely healthy in 2007-2010 he most likely would have three consecutive years of winning all of Ross, Richard, Lindsay and Hart.

People forget, but his peak was absolutely dominant. No other Russian comes close.

Fedorov?

 

[apparentlyclueless]

Fedorov?

Sure, he has a comparable one-year peak. Same with Kucherov and Malkin. But Ovie played at that dominant level for three years.

 

[Midnight Judges]

People seem to confuse career with prime or peak. If we are talking about career I have a hard time seeing Ovi not in the top 10 at minimum. His goal scoring dominance is Big 4 light. 9 Rockets are perfect in line with what Gretzky and Howe did and what Mario and Orr would have did if not for injuries. Except Ovi is of course not as dominant overall. But nevertheless from a individual standpoint maybe you can argue Hasek or Jagr had a “better” trophy case, but that’s it IMO (as of now). In no world 5 Wingers had a better career than Ovi.

For prime or better peak performance/talent for one game or a short period of time I would take maybe 4 Russians alone from the last 20/30 years over Ovechkin. Clearly I take peak Fedorov over peak Ovi. I would also take peak Malkin over peak Ovi. Maybe even peak Datsyuk and peak Bure (but both debatable in my eyes). IMO Ovi is not close to the most talented players ever. But he clearly has one of the absolute top individual careers ever. In my eyes with his goal scoring dominance as I said a light Big 4 and the deserved fifth place in the all time ranking.

That's just blatant history revision.

Peak Ovechkin went head-to-head with peak Malkin and peak Datsyuk.

First Place Hart Votes:

Ovechkin: 243
Malkin: 13
Datsyuk: 4

And Ovie won the Pearson both years.

 

[Clint]

I think the people who are arguing against Ovechkin's peak are probably too young to remember just how much of dominant force he was his first five years in the league.

He's slowed his role and changed his game, sure, but that probably extended his career by at least a few seasons. He was a bull in a china shop when he entered into the league. That style of play wouldn't have held up into his 30's.

 

[AlexBrovechkin8]

I guess his demise was once again over exaggerated.

Be honest: you just knew he was going to score on the Canes last night didn’t you?

 

[bobholly39]

It is embarrassing. Several of the history forum regulars routinely posted blatant falsehoods about Ovechkin, and the guys who didn't had no interest in correcting them.

Between the Pens fans and the Crosby fans/Russia haters, it's just not a forum where Ovechkin is ever going to get a fair shake.

One 'highly respected' history forum regular claims Ryan Getzlaf is better than Ovechkin. Another claimed Ovechkin would have been the 8th or 9th greatest player on the 1956 Habs. Several of them claimed Ovechkin is a "shoot-only" player despite him being top 4 in hits and top 10 in assists during his career. None of the regulars corrected these falsehoods, despite appearing to be otherwise knowledgeable about hockey.

Interestingly, they ranked Bobby Hull 5th and Ovechkin 22nd, despite the fact that Ovechkin compares to his much-more-competitive era quite similarly to Hull.

Ovechkin's ranking made about as much sense as ranking Toews above Malkin - which actually makes perfect sense once you understand the biases involved.

The victim complex is strong in this post....as is the norm for you. Also full of half truths and exaggerations. A few things:

1. That "highly respected" history forum regular didn't claim Getzlaf is better than Ovechkin - he claimed he personally preferred Getzlaf to Ovechkin. Big difference. When it came to actual votes and ranking - that same member voted Ovechkin 20th all-time and Getzlaf 186th all-time in his list. Finally - I know for a fact that same member you're referring to has recently stated his opinion of Ovechkin has increased a lot in recent years.

2. "Falsehoods about Ovechkin and no interest in correcting them". "Ovechkin is a shoot-only player". That discussion didn't stem from Ovechkin being called a "shoot only" player, but rather a "shoot first" player - misrepresenting that is indeed a falsehood. And when someone did eventually make the claim of "shoot only", a lot of the discussion was centered around many members arguing against that ridiculous claim ie - doing the 'correcting they have no interest in doing' as you claim.

3. Have there been extreme views/opinions posted around Ovechkin? Sure. But it's not just Ovechkin. One member in 2018 slotted Ovechkin 11th all time....and Crosby 48th all time.

That's why all of the HOH project rankings don't just have one of two person's opinion, but try to gather a pool of ~20+ voters to nullify extreme opinions. In this particular top 100 list, we had 33 active voters, and each round of voting usually saw ~28-30 people voting.

Ovechkin's ranking in 2018 behind Messier? That's probably lower than I would have had him myself, but it is what it is. I know by reading many discussions more recently, a lot of history board posters have Ovechkin quite a lot higher now with all the extra seasons Ovechkin has added since to his resume. Is he a consensus top 10 player all-time? No - even on the main boards he doesn't quite get that consensus. But a lot of posters have him in their top 10, and those who don't likely have him quite close.

Again....victim complex.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

I think the people who are arguing against Ovechkin's peak are probably too young to remember just how much of dominant force he was his first five years in the league.

He's slowed his role and changed his game, sure, but that probably extended his career by at least a few seasons. He was a bull in a china shop when he entered into the league. That style of play wouldn't have held up into his 30's.

He maintained that style of play all the way until 2019 at age 34. His bull in a china shop style helped in the 2018 Cup run.

He battered both the Lightning and Knights defense physically and lit them up on the scoreboard.

The crazy part is that he was already 10 years removed from his peak at that point. The longevity we see out of Ovi is simply unprecedented in hockey history.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

People seem to confuse career with prime or peak. If we are talking about career I have a hard time seeing Ovi not in the top 10 at minimum. His goal scoring dominance is Big 4 light. 9 Rockets are perfect in line with what Gretzky and Howe did and what Mario and Orr would have did if not for injuries. Except Ovi is of course not as dominant overall. But nevertheless from a individual standpoint maybe you can argue Hasek or Jagr had a “better” trophy case, but that’s it IMO (as of now). In no world 5 Wingers had a better career than Ovi.

For prime or better peak performance/talent for one game or a short period of time I would take maybe 4 Russians alone from the last 20/30 years over Ovechkin. Clearly I take peak Fedorov over peak Ovi. I would also take peak Malkin over peak Ovi. Maybe even peak Datsyuk and peak Bure (but both debatable in my eyes). IMO Ovi is not close to the most talented players ever. But he clearly has one of the absolute top individual careers ever. In my eyes with his goal scoring dominance as I said a light Big 4 and the deserved fifth place in the all time ranking.

Yeah sorry but this is an absolutely terrible post. In what world does Jagr (9 individual awards) have a "better" trophy case than OV (18 individual awards)? Especially considering that OV has every trophy Jagr has but Jagr has no smythe, rocket or calder.

Peak Malkin, Datsyuk and Bure over peak OV is absolutely ridiculous. We saw peak Malkin and Datsyuk vs peak OV, who won the hart and lindsay both years? Basically unanimously? Datsyuk has never even been 1st AST, only 1x 2nd AST, 1 fluke hart and lindsay nomination. What a joke. Mentioning Bure is just an insult, he was never even the best player in any 1 season, forget about multiple seasons like OV was (even excluding 99/66).

 

[DuklaNation]

Time is undefeated. Ovie is looking old out there. It happens to all of us.

 

[Midnight Judges]

The victim complex is strong in this post....as is the norm for you. Also full of half truths and exaggerations. A few things:

1. That "highly respected" history forum regular didn't claim Getzlaf is better than Ovechkin - he claimed he personally preferred Getzlaf to Ovechkin. Big difference. When it came to actual votes and ranking - that same member voted Ovechkin 20th all-time and Getzlaf 186th all-time in his list. Finally - I know for a fact that same member you're referring to has recently stated his opinion of Ovechkin has increased a lot in recent years.

2. "Falsehoods about Ovechkin and no interest in correcting them". "Ovechkin is a shoot-only player". That discussion didn't stem from Ovechkin being called a "shoot only" player, but rather a "shoot first" player - misrepresenting that is indeed a falsehood. And when someone did eventually make the claim of "shoot only", a lot of the discussion was centered around many members arguing against that ridiculous claim ie - doing the 'correcting they have no interest in doing' as you claim.

3. Have there been extreme views/opinions posted around Ovechkin? Sure. But it's not just Ovechkin. One member in 2018 slotted Ovechkin 11th all time....and Crosby 48th all time.

That's why all of the HOH project rankings don't just have one of two person's opinion, but try to gather a pool of ~20+ voters to nullify extreme opinions. In this particular top 100 list, we had 33 active voters, and each round of voting usually saw ~28-30 people voting.

Ovechkin's ranking in 2018 behind Messier? That's probably lower than I would have had him myself, but it is what it is. I know by reading many discussions more recently, a lot of history board posters have Ovechkin quite a lot higher now with all the extra seasons Ovechkin has added since to his resume. Is he a consensus top 10 player all-time? No - even on the main boards he doesn't quite get that consensus. But a lot of posters have him in their top 10, and those who don't likely have him quite close.

Again....victim complex.

Your memory is failing you:

Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time

Countless? Maybe not. But there are definitely some. This kind of thing isn't considered often enough. How many goals would a "only shoot" Gretzky or Lemieux have scored in a season? Getting shots to the net is a skill, though. that shouldn't be discounted. Reading back on that I was thinking...

forums.hfboards.com

You personally acknowledged, and minimized, the "shoot only" statements in this thread from 2018.

 

[Sharkbomb]

Time is undefeated. Ovie is looking old out there. It happens to all of us.

Meh, the entire Caps team looks old and tired. But Ovi still looks good enough for an 30+ goal season, so he'll stay on pace to break Gretzky's record eventually.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Time is undefeated. Ovie is looking old out there. It happens to all of us.

Ovechkin, Kuemper, and Svechnikov were the best players on the ice last night IMO.

 

[DuklaNation]

Ovechkin, Kuemper, and Svechnikov were the best players on the ice last night IMO.

You see it with a lot of older stars, they still have good games. It's just not with the same regularity anymore.

 

[Video Nasty]

Peak Ovechkin was 3 straight Lindsays, and leading the league in points/gp and goals/gp in all 3 of those years.

He arguably has the best peak since Lemieux and Jagr, yet you say he's the 5th best Russian peak? That's ludicrous.

Chiming in with the admiration for that 3 year stretch.

Ovechkin lost the 2008-2009 Art Ross by 3 points. He played 3 less games than Malkin. 4 points wins it outright.

Lost the 2009-2010 Rocket by 1 goal while playing 9 and 10 fewer games than Stamkos and Crosby. 2 goals win it outright. Lost the Art Ross by 3 points while playing 10 games fewer than Sedin. A few extra games wins these two awards and flips the close Hart vote back into his favor.

Crazy how just a handful of extra games in those two seasons leads to an outright sweep of the Hart, Pearson/Lindsay, Art Ross, and Rocket trophies for three consecutive seasons.

A lot different than the fantasy trophies handed out to other players who missed 50-75% of a season.

 

[Toby91ca]

Chiming in with the admiration for that 3 year stretch.

Ovechkin lost the 2008-2009 Art Ross by 3 points. He played 3 less games than Malkin. 4 points wins it outright.

Lost the 2009-2010 Rocket by 1 goal while playing 9 and 10 fewer games than Stamkos and Crosby. 2 goals win it outright. Lost the Art Ross by 3 points while playing 10 games fewer than Sedin. A few extra games wins these two awards and flips the close Hart vote back into his favor.

Crazy how just a handful of extra games in those two seasons leads to an outright sweep of the Hart, Pearson/Lindsay, Art Ross, and Rocket trophies for three consecutive seasons.

A lot different than the fantasy trophies handed out to other players who missed 50-75% of a season.

Not taking anything away from Ovechkin as he's an all-time great, but what you are talking about it what ifs or close to, etc. Can't really do that as you'd have to do the same with everyone. Take Crosby, he's only won the scoring title 2 times I think, but he's had the best PPG 7 different seasons I believe, he's been top 2 - 9 times, top 3 - 11 times, top 5 - 13 times and top 10 - 17 times (every year of his career so far)......these may be slightly off, but directly you get the point.

If Crosby didn't miss any games, you could look at projecting his stats to today and see 654 goals and 1,784 points with almost a lock at getting 2,000+......but you can't play that game, he missed those games and didn't score those points.

 

[Video Nasty]

Not taking anything away from Ovechkin as he's an all-time great, but what you are talking about it what ifs or close to, etc. Can't really do that as you'd have to do the same with everyone. Take Crosby, he's only won the scoring title 2 times I think, but he's had the best PPG 7 different seasons I believe, he's been top 2 - 9 times, top 3 - 11 times, top 5 - 13 times and top 10 - 17 times (every year of his career so far)......these may be slightly off, but directly you get the point.

If Crosby didn't miss any games, you could look at projecting his stats to today and see 654 goals and 1,784 points with almost a lock at getting 2,000+......but you can't play that game, he missed those games and didn't score those points.

I’m quite educated in understanding how cult members of the Penguin think. What I’m referring to is a mere handful of games missed over the course of two seasons, not 29, 41, and 60 games missed.

In the end, I’m not taking it seriously. It’s a passing comment of admiration, not the demented calculations that some members of that flock squawk over.

I gotta go now. A member of that flock quoted me in another thread and I need to take out the garbage.

 

[Beau Knows]

I like how people were counting him out after like 5 games this year I don't see why he doesn't hit 40-50 goals, 80+ points this season.

I’m quite educated in understanding how cult members of the Penguin think

I gotta go now. A member of that flock quoted me in another thread and I need to take out the garbage.

Holy dude, I think I see you in every McDavid, Ovechkin and Crosby thread saying weird shit like this.

 

[Video Nasty]

I like how people were counting him out after like 5 games this year I don't see why he doesn't hit 40-50 goals, 80+ points this season.





Holy dude, I think I see you in every McDavid, Ovechkin and Crosby thread saying weird shit like this.

I feel lethal, on the verge of frenzy. I think my mask of sanity is about to slip.

 

[Beau Knows]

I think my mask of sanity is about to slip.

Right

 

[andrjusha]

Now first all-time in "goals that put the team ahead"

Goal Finder | Stathead.com

Find all-time goals fitting given criteria

stathead.com

Soon will have 7 all-time goals records

* Power play goals
* Go ahead goals
* Tie game goals
* OT golas
* Goals for one franchise (needs 2)
* First goal of the game (needs 4)
* Goals scored on the road (needs 4)