NHL.com TOP 20 Defenseman

[pb1300]

You can keep repeating the same blatant lie over and over; it will never be true. On the scoreboard in 4/7 games, making Forsling look like a traffic cone, and 11 points in the series isn’t being “kept in check” by any stretch of the imagination.

Lol, it’s literally the exact opposite of that. When his team was down 3-0, with no hope left, he put the team on his back and willed them to game 7 against the supposed best defensive team in the league, with numbers only Gretzky and Lemieux were capable of. When his team needed him most, he played the best hockey of his life.

Game 7 could’ve gone either way, he just didn’t get the bounces, but he still played great. Pretty sure he hit the post twice, and missed another wide open look. An inch or two difference or a lucky bounce, and it’s a completely different story. It happens, and it is what it is. To say otherwise is actually a discredit to your own team.

“My team only won game 7 because McDavid played like shit lol.”

MOST of his points were when his team was in control of the games already. Was he impactful, of course, he is McDavid, but he did not do shit in game 6, and then in the biggest game of his career, that mattered most. What, did he use his jedi mind tricks to will his team to win game 6, when he scored no points? Or did he will his way to Janmark scoring on the breakaway, from the bench, with his McJesus magic?

He willed his team ""

Game 7 he did SHIT. No unlucky posts, or lucky bounce here or there. The Panthers played Panthers hockey, and went back to how they played all season long. They clamped the shit out McDavid and the Oilers, and that was that.

And if Forsling was a traffic cone, WTF was Bouchard ""

 

[pb1300]

Dude. Stop taking the thread off the rails. There’s no cherry picking, you got yourself all twisted up over the word most and think arguing semantics is me cherry picking. Your rambling do nothing. He had points in 4 of 7 games. Cool. Yet in 5 games, including the deciding game where it REALLY mattered he “hit a couple posts,” his point production dropped by a third.

Guess I’ll wait for more fanbase insults and expecting me to be upset you call Forsling a pylon or whatever. “Facts matter” or whatever your argument is, but you have no issue…whatever. Copium is a hell of a drug.

Oh Laus stop it, the 8 points in 2 games, when they were up 2-3-4 goals, makes up for the fact that he was MIA when it mattered most. You dont know what you're talking about. it had nothing to do with Forsling, or the fact that his metrics dipped when Barkov was on the ice against him.

 

[Laus723]

Oh Laus stop it, the 8 points in 2 games, when they were up 2-3-4 goals, makes up for the fact that he was MIA when it mattered most. You dont know what you're talking about. it had nothing to do with Forsling, or the fact that his metrics dipped when Barkov was on the ice against him.

Silly me!

Lol

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

With Cale Makar out of the line up I’ve read Toews has played to a rate of about a 38 point guy offensively and still great defensively obviously. It’s also just my viewings of his talent in general.

To me he is definitely a top 20 guy but there are a lot of amazing defensemen out there in consideration and not all of them are able to play with the leagues very best night in and out.

I mean... In the last 3 years he has the highest +/- of any Dman in the league(Including +40 over Makar himself), he's 15th in the league for total Points over those 3 years... and he's quite literally 4th among all Dmen for even strength points.

Only Josi, Karlsson, and Makar have more even strength points. Toews has more points then all of Hughes, Fox, Dahlin, Hedman, etc... And he's even done it in less games as well.


He's an elite offensive producer while also being one of the very best in the league from a defensive perspective. He's a huge reason why Makar is as good as he is. Toews is the one playing elite in his end and taking a lot of that pressure off Makar to do what he does best.

 

[Garbageyuk]

MOST of his points were when his team was in control of the games already.

BS. It’s the SCF; all the games matter, every minute of play matters, every goal and point matters, especially when your team is facing elimination. You think the Oilers would’ve evened the series from being down 3-0 if game 4 was an eked out 2-1 or 3-2 OT win? FLA would’ve wrapped it the next game. Instead McDavid dominated and brought his team back to life, gave them belief and hope, and gave them a chance to win it in game 7. Yeah, anyone being objective would agree that’s “willing” his team back into the series.

Again, he played great in games 6 and 7, and had several prime scoring chances, despite being injured and exhausted. He just couldn’t bury them and/or didn’t get the bounces. Thats the way it goes sometimes - every hockey fan knows that.

This narrative that he no showed or played bad in games 6 and 7 is complete BS, and like I said before, discredits your own team’s performance.

There’s no cherry picking,

Yet in 5 games, including the deciding game where it REALLY mattered he “hit a couple posts,” his point production dropped by a third.

He had points in 4 of 7 games.

So we agree he wasn’t shut down for most of the series. Quite the contrary; he was dominating for most of the series despite being injured and playing against the supposed best defensive team in the league.

Copium is a hell of a drug.

No “copium” here. EDM lost, and I’m ok with that. They gave it their all and put forth a hell of a performance. Idk about you, but I don’t cry over sports because I’m not 12 years old anymore. I enjoyed the run and it was great to watch. Would it have been better if they won? Of course, but it is what it is. Great run and legendary performance by #97 nonetheless.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Deroit has a good set of forwards.

They suck defensively but their forwards corps are solid. Seider gets to play with a lot of good forwards.

And he’s still getting killed out there. He had some of the worst defensive metrics in the NHL last year. He was downright bad in several games last year. That dude isn’t a top 20 defender. Not based on the last two seasons anyway.

I will say this for him. He is very much underrated offensively. He’s badly overrated defensively.

Who are these forwards?

Larkin for 60 odd games?

Raymond who has one good season?

Kane for like 30 games?

… Andrew Copp??

 

[Pavels Dog]

Deroit has a good set of forwards.

They suck defensively but their forwards corps are solid. Seider gets to play with a lot of good forwards.

And he’s still getting killed out there. He had some of the worst defensive metrics in the NHL last year. He was downright bad in several games last year. That dude isn’t a top 20 defender. Not based on the last two seasons anyway.

I will say this for him. He is very much underrated offensively. He’s badly overrated defensively.

If Seider was able to achieve great defensive metrics in the toughest matchups in NHL history with Jake Walman/Ben Chiarot as his partner he should have won the Norris+Hart+Lindsey, heck throw in the Vezina, Calder and Conn Smythe too.

I think you'd agree that there has to be some gray area between "by far the best d-man in the NHL" and "getting killed". That's where Seider exists.

And a huge LOL at you thinking Andrew Copp or the defensive acumen of Debrincat and Kane is the reason Seider survives those matchups.

 

[Czechboy]

toughest matchups in NHL history

Link? I keep reading this but am not sure how it is measured or what it means.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Link? I keep reading this but am not sure how it is measured or what it means.

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5368378/2024/03/28/nhl-moritz-seider-usage-players-numbers/

For Seider’s defense in particular, it meant facing an average skater with an Offensive Rating of 3.1. That’s the highest mark in the league.

Seider's Historic D-Zone Usage

After showcasing how much the Wings’ have leaned on their top pair of late last week, I wanted to take a step further and see how Moritz’s Seider defensive zone usage compares historically to other #1 defensemen.

prashanthiyer.substack.com

Historically speaking, only Andy Greene in New Jersey (2015-2017), Tyler Myers in Buffalo (2014-2015), and Vladislav Gavrikov in Columbus (2022-2023) started a higher percentage of their shifts in the defensive zone than Seider this season.

Skating uphill with Moritz Seider

What tough competition looks like in action.

allthreezones.substack.com

I know some will say “if he’s elite he should dominate regardless, but when you’re taking on this defensive workload it’s a little different. It’s also worth asking if Seider taking a beating in scoring chance/expected goal ledger some nights is “hurting” the Red Wings if he’s not getting outscored or if it’s freeing up the rest of the lineup.

I know there's more out there. Maybe a bit of hyperbole to say it's the toughest deployment in history, but it's definitely near the top in the analytics era. Also none of this is saying that Seider did a perfect job or had an optimal season. It's just context for the people who solely look at xGF/xGA or stuff like that to form their opinion.

 

[Czechboy]

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5368378/2024/03/28/nhl-moritz-seider-usage-players-numbers/

Seider's Historic D-Zone Usage

After showcasing how much the Wings’ have leaned on their top pair of late last week, I wanted to take a step further and see how Moritz’s Seider defensive zone usage compares historically to other #1 defensemen.

prashanthiyer.substack.com

Skating uphill with Moritz Seider

What tough competition looks like in action.

allthreezones.substack.com

I know there's more out there. Maybe a bit of hyperbole to say it's the toughest deployment in history, but it's definitely near the top in the analytics era. Also none of this is saying that Seider did a perfect job or had an optimal season. It's just context for the people who solely look at xGF/xGA or stuff like that to form their opinion.

Thanks ... I'm a big seider fan so curious about this!

 

[triggrman]

You guys think Ekholm is top 20 now, you should have watched him when he was younger, faster and better.

 

[Sasha Orlov]

If Seider was able to achieve great defensive metrics in the toughest matchups in NHL history with Jake Walman/Ben Chiarot as his partner he should have won the Norris+Hart+Lindsey, heck throw in the Vezina, Calder and Conn Smythe too.

I think you'd agree that there has to be some gray area between "by far the best d-man in the NHL" and "getting killed". That's where Seider exists.

And a huge LOL at you thinking Andrew Copp or the defensive acumen of Debrincat and Kane is the reason Seider survives those matchups.

Is Seider playing against players from the Super NHL or what? He has the toughest matchups in NHL history? How is it tougher than any other top pairing D?

 

[dgibb10]

Is Seider playing against players from the Super NHL or what? He has the toughest matchups in NHL history? How is it tougher than any other top pairing D?

That's how Detroit chooses to play him.

He certainly didn't succeed in those minutes, but I don't think anyone would.

However, when Seider was in normal minutes, he had quite a bit of success as a rookie.

So the assumption is that, under normal minutes again, he would return to those results.

 

[Aladyyn]

Is Seider playing against players from the Super NHL or what? He has the toughest matchups in NHL history? How is it tougher than any other top pairing D?

An easy explanation is that only half of this is determined by what his team wants and the other half is what the other team wants.

 

[KevinFinnerty]

Fox is at worst #3

 

[Namikaze Minato]

Fox is at worst #3

I have a few problems with the list but just swapping Fox and Hedman makes it look way better.

 

[dgibb10]

Fox is at worst #3

I think you could argue Heiskanen, Makar, Hughes over him.

But 4 is the lowest and I'd probably put him at 3

 

[Coffey]

How is Fox always so underrated?

Dude is a machine.

 

[Machinehead]

How is Fox always so underrated?

Dude is a machine.

It generates clicks from Rangers fans, and his lack of size and speed affords some plausible deniability that they're blatantly lying for attention.

 

[Ncit3]

I mean... In the last 3 years he has the highest +/- of any Dman in the league(Including +40 over Makar himself), he's 15th in the league for total Points over those 3 years... and he's quite literally 4th among all Dmen for even strength points.

Only Josi, Karlsson, and Makar have more even strength points. Toews has more points then all of Hughes, Fox, Dahlin, Hedman, etc... And he's even done it in less games as well.


He's an elite offensive producer while also being one of the very best in the league from a defensive perspective. He's a huge reason why Makar is as good as he is. Toews is the one playing elite in his end and taking a lot of that pressure off Makar to do what he does best.

I don't think people truly understand the safety valve that Toews offers to Makar. Makar is allowed to use his immense talent offensively because he can let up a bit. If Makar was forced to play a heavy defensive game I have no doubts he'd be one of the best in the league. But he doesn't really need to when he can cheat up a little bit with Toews on the ice with him.

 

[Regal]

It generates clicks from Rangers fans, and his lack of size and speed affords some plausible deniability that they're blatantly lying for attention.

I guess it’s always been the case to some degree but it’s kind of annoying that any list these days has to be intentionally controversial to get attention

 

[John Mandalorian]

Top 25 defensemen.

1. Cale Makar
2. Quinn Hughes
3. Miro Heiskanen
4. Roman Josi
5. Adam Fox
6. Victor Hedman
7. Gustav Forsling
8. Charlie McAvoy
9. Jaccob Slavin
10. Noah Dobson
11. Devon Toews
12. Josh Morrissey
13. Shea Theodore
14. Evan Bouchard
15. Rasmus Dahlin
16. Zach Werenski
17. Mattias Ekholm
18. Drew Doughty
19. Erik Karlsson
20. Dougie Hamilton
21. Moritz Seider
22. John Carlson
23. Chris Tanev
24. Kris Letang
25. Morgan Rielly

Be honest. You have this hanging on your refrigerator, don’t you?

 

[Sniperberg]

Lindholm underrated as always

 

[Three On Zero]

You guys think Ekholm is top 20 now, you should have watched him when he was younger, faster and better.

Ekholm and Bouchard need to switch spots on this list. It’s Ekholm work that helped Bouchard from being a liability this season. Ekholm doesn’t get the love because he doesn’t put up the points. Similar to Tanev

 

[Maurice of Orange]

Be honest. You have this hanging on your refrigerator, don’t you?

Damn Skippy, and proud of it