NHL.com TOP 20 Defenseman

[Pavels Dog]

No my point is you're wasting Seiders talents having him get caved in out there. Why waste a Seider on a job that can be done by a Matheson.

Also he was -7 at EV, and that was buoyed by some pretty excellent shooting luck he got in front of him.

And again, that since detroit's other dmen were not very capable of taking advantage of easier minutes, those easier minutes were wasted.

It's easy to spot the people who don't actually understand hockey beyond caring about their Fantasy team and/or fancy stats.
"Why waste a Seider" - because the job is to win. No one has yet been able to explain how giving some of Seider's difficult minutes to Petry, Holl or Gostisbehere would help the team win. All people can explain is how Seider, as an individual, would fare better in easier minutes and thus his underlying metrics (which actually don't matter) would look nicer.

I understand that for some the fact that Detroit missed the playoffs means everything was meaningless and they should have focused on individual glory rather than team play, but I assure you the organization and fans enjoyed chasing the playoffs for the full 82 games a lot more than an ~80 point season where Seider gets more credit on internet message boards.

 

[Aladyyn]

I'm sure killing Seider's development for 2 years was worth it to achieve 48% goal share at 5on5.

 

[KevinFinnerty]

I think you could argue Heiskanen, Makar, Hughes over him.

But 4 is the lowest and I'd probably put him at 3

Ok has Miro ever won a Norris?

 

[KickHimPedro]

Be honest, how many Canucks games did you actually watch last season?
What is his role in your opinion? Because in mine, he carries this team on his back, He doesn't just have a role on this team, it's his team...

But it's true - he's the most modern of the modern Dmen. In that he is the least effective defensively of this bunch, but the most effective offensively.

Good post. I agree with you. To answer I watched maybe 15 Canuck games last season.

My observation could be completely wrong. But I don’t see Hughes out there in a lot of end of game situations.

Guys like McDavid Mackinnon, Matthews, Makar, Josi etc play a roll. Maybe they don’t kill penalties. They aren’t all known for a 200ft game. But when the game is on the line, they’re on the ice. Regardless of the situation. It’s because they’re the leagues best players.

I don’t see that out of Hughes. Him sitting on the bench during the game deciding moments just doesn’t ring “leagues best defenseman” to me.

Maybe I’m being unfair based off a coaches’ specific usage. Or maybe my observations are completely wrong. Or maybe his ability to take over a game trumps that.

 

[dgibb10]

It's easy to spot the people who don't actually understand hockey beyond caring about their Fantasy team and/or fancy stats.
"Why waste a Seider" - because the job is to win. No one has yet been able to explain how giving some of Seider's difficult minutes to Petry, Holl or Gostisbehere would help the team win. All people can explain is how Seider, as an individual, would fare better in easier minutes and thus his underlying metrics (which actually don't matter) would look nicer.

I understand that for some the fact that Detroit missed the playoffs means everything was meaningless and they should have focused on individual glory rather than team play, but I assure you the organization and fans enjoyed chasing the playoffs for the full 82 games a lot more than an ~80 point season where Seider gets more credit on internet message boards.

And again, I believe playing a worse dman, who will also get caved in but not too a much worse extent than seiders 43% xGoals share, will allow them to play seider in a role where he can dominate to the tune of 55% or something.

Detroit got below average PP results, below average even strength results, and below average PK results.

If getting a shitton of extra power plays and a sky high shooting% to still miss the playoffs is what the goal is, sure. #YZERPLAN

 

[x Tame Impala]

I don't think people truly understand the safety valve that Toews offers to Makar. Makar is allowed to use his immense talent offensively because he can let up a bit. If Makar was forced to play a heavy defensive game I have no doubts he'd be one of the best in the league. But he doesn't really need to when he can cheat up a little bit with Toews on the ice with him.

Unfortunately this notion on HF that a great player can't be great if he plays on a great team or with other great players has been prominent since at least 2012 when I first joined.

It is completely irrelevant how good of a dman Toews would be without Makar or on a different team. He IS playing with Makar and these guys make music together season in and season out. The actual, real-world, tangible output these two are puting forth is the only thing that matters in these discussions because Toews does play with Makar and he does play on the Avs.

Like you said, it also ignores the fact that Makar is only able to excel in the way he has because he has a rock of a D partner next to him. They work perfectly together and the real world output of Toews is the only thing that matters. The context isn't even a bad argument, it's a non-argument.

 

[Czechboy]

Unfortunately this notion on HF that a great player can't be great if he plays on a great team or with other great players has been prominent since at least 2012 when I first joined.

THIS!

I actually go back to 1998. Czechs won cause they had Hasek in net. It's not fair!

That's the whole point.... it's a competitive sport and you should be trying to get as many good players as you can and put them in positions to succeed. Avs getting Toews for Makar is genius... more teams should do it. It doesn't mean either sucks.. it means someone was thinking and gave their team an advantage over the other teams.

 

[Coffee]

1.Hughes
2.Makar
3.Fox

That's the cream of the crop

so yeah I agree with the Ranger head @KevinFinnerty

 

[bossram]

It's easy to spot the people who don't actually understand hockey beyond caring about their Fantasy team and/or fancy stats.
"Why waste a Seider" - because the job is to win. No one has yet been able to explain how giving some of Seider's difficult minutes to Petry, Holl or Gostisbehere would help the team win. All people can explain is how Seider, as an individual, would fare better in easier minutes and thus his underlying metrics (which actually don't matter) would look nicer.

I understand that for some the fact that Detroit missed the playoffs means everything was meaningless and they should have focused on individual glory rather than team play, but I assure you the organization and fans enjoyed chasing the playoffs for the full 82 games a lot more than an ~80 point season where Seider gets more credit on internet message boards.

I don't think giving the difficult minutes to guys like Petry or Holl would be better for the Wings winning. Seider is their best defenseman, ergo he likely would perform the best in the tough minutes.

However, the fact that they have to use him like that is a massive indictment of Yzerman's GMing. Why did he acquire all these "veteran" defensemen if they're essentially unplayable in any kind of leverage role? Wasn't the point of those guys to make Seider's life easier, so that they can unlock more of his offensive game? Why is Yzerman wasting money on UFAs they can't even trust to play? Could they not have allocated that money better? Find someone to help Seider? A guy that can anchor a tough minutes pair, or a better partner for him?

It falls on Yzerman. He's been doing a poor job for years.

 

[dgibb10]

Ok has Miro ever won a Norris?

As I said.

I would probably have Fox 3rd. But Miro is certainly right there with the big 3 of Fox, Makar, and Hughes

 

[bossram]

Good post. I agree with you. To answer I watched maybe 15 Canuck games last season.

My observation could be completely wrong. But I don’t see Hughes out there in a lot of end of game situations.

Guys like McDavid Mackinnon, Matthews, Makar, Josi etc play a roll. Maybe they don’t kill penalties. They aren’t all known for a 200ft game. But when the game is on the line, they’re on the ice. Regardless of the situation. It’s because they’re the leagues best players.

I don’t see that out of Hughes. Him sitting on the bench during the game deciding moments just doesn’t ring “leagues best defenseman” to me.

Maybe I’m being unfair based off a coaches’ specific usage. Or maybe my observations are completely wrong. Or maybe his ability to take over a game trumps that.

Yes. Your observations are very wrong.

Hughes was the Canucks' most used player. He won the Norris. He was the de facto driving force of the success of their team. He played all critical situations.

Somehow you claim he was on the bench during game deciding moments. Like, lol. I've seen Tocchet play this guy for a 6 out of the final 8 minutes of a game.

It’s weird watching Hughes flee the ice during the critical points of the game.

Up 3-2 1 minute left. Gone

Tie game, game 7. McDavid in the ice. Gone

Makar isn’t high tailing it for the bench. Heiskanen isn’t.

Line matching is one thing. This feels like a glaring weakness. Great players don’t need to be sheltered.

He had a great season. He’s super talented and won the Norris. Everyone would love him in their team. He does his role extremely well. But to say he’s the best defenseman or top two? I don’t see it.

It's good people are allowed to have very incorrect opinions.

 

[GOALOFSSON]

As I said.

I would probably have Fox 3rd. But Miro is certainly right there with the big 3 of Fox, Makar, and Hughes

He's not better than Dahlin.

 

[dgibb10]

He's not better than Dahlin.

He clears Dahlin

 

[Coffey]

My top 3 dmen are

Makar
Miro
Fox

Sorry, not sorry

 

[Coffee]

My top 3 dmen are

Makar
Miro
Fox

Sorry, not sorry

do you have Bouch and Hughes both with potential to sneak in the top 3 ?

He's not better than Dahlin.

Perhaps but that’s extremely hard to tell right now, Sabres roster hasn’t performed as well as Stars roster

 

[Coffey]

do you have Bouch and Hughes both with potential to sneak in the top 3 ?

Bouch? No. Doesn't pass my defensive play eye-test yet.
Hughes didn't impress me in the playoffs either, tough to say in the regular season since Oilers got mangled by the Canucks. But I'll watch more of him this season.

 

[norrisnick]

And again, I believe playing a worse dman, who will also get caved in but not too a much worse extent than seiders 43% xGoals share, will allow them to play seider in a role where he can dominate to the tune of 55% or something.

Detroit got below average PP results, below average even strength results, and below average PK results.

If getting a shitton of extra power plays and a sky high shooting% to still miss the playoffs is what the goal is, sure. #YZERPLAN

That bolded part is a key point here. The Wings had no such player.

The other key point is most NHL teams don't coach to expected anything. That's a fan thing. Actual outcomes are what coaches deal with.

 

[sabremike]

do you have Bouch and Hughes both with potential to sneak in the top 3 ?


Perhaps but that’s extremely hard to tell right now, Sabres roster hasn’t performed as well as Stars roster

Possibly because the Pegula Error Sabres can lay claim to the tilte of least successful organization in hockey history (which is probably also the reason there's a long list of players who got the hell out of Peguaville and almost instantly won cups).

 

[Janvonpobben]

Makar, Hughes, Fox.

Literally nobody has Hedman in their top 3 right now, do you?

Hedman plays actual defense. The other guys are offense only.

 

[Regal]

Hedman plays actual defense. The other guys are offense only.

Hedman’s defense has slipped quite a bit

 

[hamzarocks]

Slavin Forsling and Ekholm would be at my bottom of the top 20 if that.

Forsling yes around 18th to 20th

Slavin around 15th

Ekholm around 11th or 12

THe ekholm trade is just absurdly good.

Ekholm is a incredible two-way D who plays heavy minutes and gives good offense. Hes established and was the 1B on the Oilers finals run team behind Bouchard

 

[Czechboy]

I agree with most that top 3 is Fox, Makar and Hughes but I think Josi is right there with them and see it as a big 4 going into this season.

 

[Czechboy]

So Seider has a poor year and it's deployment because Detroit doesn't really have anyone that can handle that role so he gets it... that is what I'm reading?

At the same time, Yzerman is considered a great GM by the same people saying that Detroit doesn't have anyone to help Seider out. That seems like a GM error to me. Ervidson and ASP seem like great picks but I don't see either one making a Top 20 list in the next 2 seasons. And I don't see Holl, Petry or Chariot's name being mentioned here at all.

Then Hughes has a career year and wins a Norris.

So Hughes has a career year and Seider is given the 'hardest deployment in NHL history'.

I'll get mocked for this, but has it occured to anyone that Hronek is better than some think? Just a coincidence? I know ASP will replace Hronek but it certainly wasn't last season and it certainly won't be next season either as he's still in Europe.

 

[norrisnick]

So Seider has a poor year and it's deployment because Detroit doesn't really have anyone that can handle that role so he gets it... that is what I'm reading?

At the same time, Yzerman is considered a great GM by the same people saying that Detroit doesn't have anyone to help Seider out. That seems like a GM error to me. Ervidson and ASP seem like great picks but I don't see either one making a Top 20 list in the next 2 seasons. And I don't see Holl, Petry or Chariot's name being mentioned here at all.

Then Hughes has a career year and wins a Norris.

So Hughes has a career year and Seider is given the 'hardest deployment in NHL history'.

I'll get mocked for this, but has it occured to anyone that Hronek is better than some think? Just a coincidence? I know ASP will replace Hronek but it certainly wasn't last season and it certainly won't be next season either as he's still in Europe.

Yes.

Last season's finish, this coming season's finish, and Holl, Petry, and Chiarot have nothing to do with what Yzerman is building. He's assembling a bunch of young kids, most of whom haven't made the show yet, with Larkin chosen as the veteran leader to guide them along. Everyone that isn't Larkin (and maybe DeBrincat) or drafted by Yzerman is just holding a spot on the roster at the moment until the kids replace them. That has been the stated plan from day one, but apparently people have convinced themselves that when Yzerman lays out his plan for the team that he's secretly doing something else. Had the Wings made the playoffs last year or make it this year, great. But that's not what the plan is.

I know you feel personally slighted by Hronek being traded and Wing fans not caring (except you Konnan, I see you), but him at $7M+ does not remotely fit into the plan. Nor is Hronek remotely close to this list.

 

[Czechboy]

know you feel personally slighted by Hronek being traded and Wing fans not caring

This is just silly and off topic. I'm thrilled he's in Vancouver on a top pairing role and making playoffs! Feels personal when you do that.. please stick to hockey.