HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Preliminary Discussion Thread

[Michael Farkas]

That's the thing. He didn't blew them.

This shouldn't be interpreted as praise for Thomas, mind you.

Well, that's what's tough...getting credit for winning a game 7 when you're the reason the series was extended to that point is tricky to square for me. They could have went somewhere in 2009 too - but again...he blew it and his team didn't have time to outscore his erratic nonsense.

Cechmanek gets 2 goals of run support in an entire series - he's not clutch. Thomas gets the highest non-80's goal total in playoff history - he is clutch.

Thomas was awesome occasionally in some European league...he rules.
Cechmanek dominated a better league for several consecutive seasons leading to a dynasty...he's an afterthought.

We can pretend this is "bottom line"...but it's buffet style logic...

 

[MXD]

Well, that's what's tough...getting credit for winning a game 7 when you're the reason the series was extended to that point is tricky to square for me. They could have went somewhere in 2009 too - but again...he blew it and his team didn't have time to outscore his erratic nonsense.

Cechmanek gets 2 goals of run support in an entire series - he's not clutch. Thomas gets the highest non-80's goal total in playoff history - he is clutch.

Thomas was awesome occasionally in some European league...he rules.
Cechmanek dominated a better league for several consecutive seasons leading to a dynasty...he's an afterthought.

We can pretend this is "bottom line"...but it's buffet style logic...

... I wasn't really making that point WRT Cechmanek.

 

[Dr John Carlson]

Here's a question for the group - which tandem goaltenders were such because they needed to be, and which ones were such because of coaching decisions?

Gump Worsley probably had to be a tandem goaltender during his Cup years. Johnny Bower, an arthritic 40 year old, probably had to be. But Billy Smith, for example, on a team other than the Islanders, could he make do as a workhorse-type of starter?

Just trying to square up my preference for guys who handled a lot of responsibility over guys who had lighter workloads, because I know a lot of it has to do with the quality of the other goalies on the roster, as well as the coach's philosophy.

 

[MXD]

Here's a question for the group - which tandem goaltenders were such because they needed to be, and which ones were such because of coaching decisions?

Gump Worsley probably had to be a tandem goaltender during his Cup years. Johnny Bower, an arthritic 40 year old, probably had to be. But Billy Smith, for example, on a team other than the Islanders, could he make do as a workhorse-type of starter?

Just trying to square up my preference for guys who handled a lot of responsibility over guys who had lighter workloads, because I know a lot of it has to do with the quality of the other goalies on the roster, as well as the coach's philosophy.

Arbour seems to have gone for tandem his whole coaching career.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Here's a question for the group - which tandem goaltenders were such because they needed to be, and which ones were such because of coaching decisions?

Gump Worsley probably had to be a tandem goaltender during his Cup years. Johnny Bower, an arthritic 40 year old, probably had to be. But Billy Smith, for example, on a team other than the Islanders, could he make do as a workhorse-type of starter?

Just trying to square up my preference for guys who handled a lot of responsibility over guys who had lighter workloads, because I know a lot of it has to do with the quality of the other goalies on the roster, as well as the coach's philosophy.

Goalie development was hindered by the push down of the 1965 backup goalie rule. Wasn't enough ice available down the development supply chain. A lot of half cooked goalies that had little staying power. Look at someone like Ken Wregget who is dynamite to start seasons, but falls off if he's relied upon too much after that.

This is another aspect of the talent evaluation process and it can be very tough to figure out without a big film sample...but consistency. The game to game consistency to bring your best to the forefront.

Then I'd vote that it's important to not penalize guys who didn't play 65+ games a year for reasons that aren't their own performance or availability too much. In less parity times, check the SoS that hockeygoalies.org has because that can really have an impact too.

To answer one question directly...Billy Smith could have been fine everywhere in my opinion. Very consistent. Very technically sound. Very economic. He's on my B list which is very high.

 

[VanIslander]

Kolzig, the Vezina trophy winner and Clancy trophy winner, was known as 'Godzilla' in college and into the NHL. "Olie the goalie' became a CBC moniker that half stuck.

He was the best player on the ice in so many games! At least for his team. The Caps fan base was always in his corner.

The Stanley Cup Finals:

 

[VanIslander]

Esposito is an example of one who laid on his high floor but didn't jump for his ceiling.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

I'm curious about Tretiak, Vasilevskiy, and Parent being that high. I certainly have Tretiak top 10, but I don't get the argument for third, honestly. (Anyone who feels this way can answer, btw, not just the quoted poster.) Everything else seems reasonable to me if we're not including early guys.

Parent has a more credible Top-10 case than, say, George Hainsworth [placed 9th on the THN list].

I'm sure we ALL wish we could see Vasilevskiy spend a little more time in the developing solution before making a call-- but that option isn't open to us now. I agree with @seventieslord that we probably have already seen his best.

Sheer size of the list is going to prove an obstacle to my completing it. I can go to 25 with confidence, 30+ with comfort... but the idea that I have to add FIFTY names after that is pretty daunting. If the predicted rainy days Wednesday-Thursday-Friday happen, I might have a chance.

 

[Dr John Carlson]

I've scratched out a bunch more names and am basically done, minus the inevitable tweaking. The last ten or so on my list is just a complete hodgepodge of weird guys mixed with guys that I don't think much of but I had to include because of their resume. It's an eclectic group of 80.

Some names I liked upon film review, compared to where I think I would've had them before, include Bower, Vachon, and Irbe, while some names I didn't really like include Cujo and Peter Lindmark.

 

[Professor What]

Parent has a more credible Top-10 case than, say, George Hainsworth [placed 9th on the THN list].

I'm sure we ALL wish we could see Vasilevskiy spend a little more time in the developing solution before making a call-- but that option isn't open to us now. I agree with @seventieslord that we probably have already seen his best.

Sheer size of the list is going to prove an obstacle to my completing it. I can go to 25 with confidence, 30+ with comfort... but the idea that I have to add FIFTY names after that is pretty daunting. If the predicted rainy days Wednesday-Thursday-Friday happen, I might have a chance.

If it makes you feel any better, I feel like the last 20-25 names on my list are more or less noise. I don't mean that I just picked random guys. At the moment, I prefer them to the guys I left off the list (note that I say at the moment -- it could easily change), but there's not a lot concrete that sets them apart.

We want the lists by Friday, but if you're working on it and you're getting close, let us know. It's not a drop dead deadline.

 

[jigglysquishy]

What do people make of Tom Barasso's spike season in 1998? It's a late career bump for someone who peaked ~1983-1986.

Were his defensive numbers hampered on the high flying Penguins in the early 90s and he was actually that good all the time? Or is it a mirage of sv% in a low scoring era?m

 

[Michael Farkas]

Healthy for the first time in a bit. But mostly it was Kevin Constantine's militant defensive structure. Even non-NHL Petr Skudra was great statistically that year with his giant pillows...he was playing dodgeball the rest of his career.

 

[VanIslander]

Hugh Lehman.
Riley Hern.
Rinne.

 

[Michael Farkas]

All right, so...the "missing link" in the butterfly chain from Glenn Hall to Patrick Roy is NOT Tony Esposito. It's Roger Crozier. Now, Crozier's a tricky one because if you look at the career, I'm assuming he's not on many lists (?). But he was probably better Tony O was as far as butterfly goalies go...

He was an odd cat though. A lot of injury, illness (pancreatitis), likely undiagnosed mental issues...I think he tried to quit after his second year in the league and like ran into the Northern Ontario woods for months and then was convinced to come back.

I'm going to have him on my list.

 

[Professor What]

All right, so...the "missing link" in the butterfly chain from Glenn Hall to Patrick Roy is NOT Tony Esposito. It's Roger Crozier. Now, Crozier's a tricky one because if you look at the career, I'm assuming he's not on many lists (?). But he was probably better Tony O was as far as butterfly goalies go...

He was an odd cat though. A lot of injury, illness (pancreatitis), likely undiagnosed mental issues...I think he tried to quit after his second year in the league and like ran into the Northern Ontario woods for months and then was convinced to come back.

I'm going to have him on my list.

I've got Crozier on my list in the mid 50s. Out of curiosity, what range do you have him trending toward?

 

[Michael Farkas]

I've got Crozier on my list in the mid 50s. Out of curiosity, what range do you have him trending toward?

I put him in my C+ list for now. I'm not sure where that's going to put him, but I imagine higher than 50s. The "A" and "B" lists are not growing a ton. Though, I've been pleasantly surprised by Bernie Parent. He might be in Billy Smith territory. I want to see what he looked like before Plante and Bower got to him though.

I was always a little suspicious of Parent because of the fairly short peak on a tight defensive team. But it looks like that suspicion is pretty unfounded. Standup goalie, excellent angles and positioning, very consistently doing the right things, puck tracking is there, rebound control is a plus...I've seen better skaters, but he's very economical and quiet for a 70's goalie. I'm into it.

 

[frisco]

What do people make of Tom Barasso's spike season in 1998? It's a late career bump for someone who peaked ~1983-1986.

Were his defensive numbers hampered on the high flying Penguins in the early 90s and he was actually that good all the time? Or is it a mirage of sv% in a low scoring era?m

A couple of points:
-Barrasso's "first" peak was from 1983-1988. He was Vezina runner-up in 87-88.
-Barrasso had a second peak from 1991-1993 where he won two Stanley Cups and was a Vezina runner-up.
-The 97-98 post-Mario Pens did play good D under Constantine, but if one explains away Barrasso's 97-98 as just a by-product of this, then you may as well take Martin Brodeur's whole career and throw it out the window as Brodeur played on staunch defensive teams pretty much every season.
-Barrasso missed almost the entire 94-95 and 96-97 seasons with injury. So, he was finally healthy there in 97-98.

My Best-Carey

 

[Michael Farkas]

-The 97-98 post-Mario Pens did play good D under Constantine, but if one explains away Barrasso's 97-98 as just a by-product of this, then you may as well take Martin Brodeur's whole career and throw it out the window as Brodeur played on staunch defensive teams pretty much every season.

1. Why would we have to do this?
2. Do people think that it was Brodeur that retired in 2003 and not Roy?

 

[MXD]

What do people make of Tom Barasso's spike season in 1998? It's a late career bump for someone who peaked ~1983-1986.

Were his defensive numbers hampered on the high flying Penguins in the early 90s and he was actually that good all the time? Or is it a mirage of sv% in a low scoring era?m

Numbers too close to Skudra, though I guess SOS could inform us, and it's not like his workhorsing can be completely disregarded.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Still the classic Barrasso came out in a very winnable series vs. Montreal...when Peter Popovic scored his only career playoff goal and Benoit Brunet scored his lone playoff goal of the '98 playoffs (1 of his 5 career goals) from outside the dots to lose it for Pittsburgh...

The first one broke a tie with a 23 minutes left. The other one was the OT winner. It'd be nice to get a save on these. But long shots just ate him up sometimes...



In game 6, the 2-0 goal was like a Turner Stevenson backhand wraparound to basically shut the lights out on the series...

I don't know if it was because he played too many games in the regular season or what...but he just didn't look focused or sharp when we needed him most. Not unlike 1993, which is the other time he played more than 60 games in a season.

This same anonymous Montreal team would immediately get swept by Buffalo.

Just throw him in the bucket with the other inconsistent athletic goalies from that time period with Mike Vernon and Grant Fuhr. I don't see too much separating these guys. I guess maybe if you really drill down, I guess Fuhr and to a lesser extent Vernon could make a big, late save. Barrasso, less so...in which case, maybe put him with Bobrovsky.

 

[rmartin65]

While continuing to look into Jack Winchester (who I am now reasonably confident is worthy of making a top-80 list, though top-60 seems like a stretch at this point) I ran across an article in the Vancouver Daily World from 1 February, 1912. The article is titled "Hugh Lehman One of Greatest in Nets", and talks about how Hugh Lehman... is one of the greatest goalies playing. He seems to have been the favorite at a then-recent fanning bee, though that was held in Vancouver so there may be some bias at play there. Anyway, four other goalies were mentioned-

Paddy Moran: "Paddy Moran is perhaps the one best bet of the four and his wonderful record with the old Quebec team stamps him as the cleverest goal custodian of the East"

Percy LeSueur: "Percy Leseur is one of the greatest students of hockey. He is always trying to learn some new wrinkles and also always trying to teach others what he knows of the game"

'Dutchy' Morrison: "'Dutchy' Morrison made a great name for himself in O.H.A. hockey...He then game west and put Portage la Prairie on the hockey map. He was the most finished player that ever performed in that section"

'Whitey' Merritt: "'Whitey' Merritt was the old Victoria goal tender... His work is still talked about by the old timers, who claim that the present generation has not seen his equal"

Then two other names were briefly mentioned; Riley Hern and Jack Winchester: "Riley Hern and the late Jack Winchester must also be mentioned as great men between the nets"

I tried to clip the article and share it, let me know if it doesn't work-

Link

 

[VanIslander]

No Vernon, please.
They won despite him.
It was clear he wasn't great.

There are 60 great goalies in hockey history
and none are named Vernon.

 

[Michael Farkas]

They won despite him.

The 1997 Conn Smythe winner and the 2nd place Smythe finisher in 1989...?

It looks like Vernon on the Oilers would have been considered as great as Fuhr...instead of having Gretzky, he was going against Gretzky. I can't see a material difference between their games that would make Vernon not top 60 and Fuhr top...anything.

If you want to go down the road that neither of them belong, I'll go with you. But one without the other...? Meh, that seems more narrative-based than on-ice results. But I'm open...

 

[VanIslander]

Fuhr ain't on my top-60 list.
I lived through the insaneness.

Irbe... now there is a top-80 worthy candidate. He is on the long list.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Ok then, I appreciate the logical consistency then. Yes, Irbe will be on my list too.