HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Preliminary Discussion Thread

How many goalies should make the final list?

  • Final list of 60, Round 1 list submission of 80

    Votes: 21 75.0%
  • Final list of 80, Round 1 list submission of 100

    Votes: 7 25.0%

  • Total voters
    28
  • Poll closed .

Michael Farkas

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And how many goalies will you/we have who played professionally in 1984-85, as a comparison...?

Grant Fuhr
Barrasso as a teenager
Old Billy Goat Smith
John Vanbiesbrouck
Don Edwards
Chico Resch?
Dan Bouchard?
Denis Herron?
 

MXD

Partying Hard
Oct 27, 2005
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And how many goalies will you/we have who played professionally in 1984-85, as a comparison...?

Grant Fuhr
Barrasso as a teenager
Old Billy Goat Smith
John Vanbiesbrouck
Don Edwards
Chico Resch?
Dan Bouchard?
Denis Herron?

Something about the player pool, and that era being considered as generally weak. I think the only pro netminders missing from my list would be, what, Jake Forbes, Flat Walsh and Herb Rhéaume? Meanwhile, the majority of active pro netminders aren't on your list.

Also... Denis Herron, while absolutely competent, isn't a name I expected to read in this thread.
 
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Michael Farkas

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Not sure, just throwing names that stuck out. Peeters will be on my list. Liut is around but he's disappointed on film.

The era is considered weak. But if the same wide open style of play was employed in the 20's and games got a little sideways, we'd probably think that those goalies are garbage with their 3.75 GAAs. Instead, forward passing wasn't classy and things look different.

There's what? 7 NHL teams in 1926? And another six out west? Is there anything else of note?

So, we got 9 of 13 goalies across two leagues?

We got 21 teams in the NHL + backups, we have the Soviet monolith, we have the Czechs, we have the Swedes...

I don't want to sound like one of those team-counting, populationists...but I feel like the 1920's is becoming our "prospect pool"

Just slightly out of reach from us being able to watch it. And the aura of which - driven by varying reports of greatness - has us pining for Hal Winkler...when we have - I don't know - Reggie Lemelin right in front of us and we don't want him (and we probably shouldn't)...just feels like there's a lot of "grass is greener" stuff going on with the guys that Gretzky couldn't spank one past...

Which isn't to say that Winkler and friends are bad. They might be great. I don't know. I don't think anyone has even belched in the direction Winkler when naming the best goalies of the 20's - and a lot of guys get credit for being great then...but we have a questionable era and I mean that literally, as we really aren't completely sure...we're not even completely sure about Morenz based on film and math (at least I'm not)...but we have time for 70% of the goalies...?
 

Michael Farkas

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Am I the only one that feels that there are either too many or not enough guys to fill in the lower part of the list? What I mean is that, if you include this guy, it almost feels like you have to include that guy, or hey, maybe you could leave them both out.
No, I'm in the 1970's. I have less than 40 guys that I'd be comfortable putting on a list right at this moment. I'm actually hoping that birth year 1899 or whatever was the key to goaltending greatness haha
 

Professor What

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Sep 16, 2020
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I just noticed that my top 14 are all within one spot of where they finished last time. I can't decide if it's because I legit think that the top of the list was that good or if it's a lack of imagination on my part. It changes a lot as we get further down the list, but man, that top section.
 

MXD

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Oct 27, 2005
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I just noticed that my top 14 are all within one spot of where they finished last time. I can't decide if it's because I legit think that the top of the list was that good or if it's a lack of imagination on my part. It changes a lot as we get further down the list, but man, that top section.
The wheel already exists.
 

Michael Farkas

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True. But as someone who has worked in product management and development: If you asked customers what they wanted in transportation in 1899, they would have said, "a faster horse". Sometimes people lean on what they know and what's comfortable too much...
 

jigglysquishy

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Jun 20, 2011
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I think at the very top there's a "canon" across media and it's probably there for a good reason.

The Hockey News' Top 10 goalies

1. Terry Sawchuk
2. Patrick Roy
3. Martin Brodeur
4. Jacques Plante
5. Dominik Hasek
6. Glenn Hall
7. Ken Dryden
8. Bill Durnan
9. George Hainsworth
10. Turk Broda

I assume Tretiak was structurally excluded

The Hockey News' Top 10 International Goalies

1. Vladislav Tretiak
2. Jiri Holocek
3. Seth Martin
4. Peter Lindmark
5. Vladimir Dzurilla
6. Jiri Kralik
7. Viktor Konovalenko
8. Leif Holmqvist
9. Bohumil Modry
10. Urpo Ylonen

The Hockey News' Top 10 Pre-NHL Goalies

1. Hugh Lehman
2. Percy LeSueur
3. Riley Hern
4. Paddy Moran
5. Tom Paton
6. Bouse Hutton
7. Billy Nicholson
8. Joe Daley
9. Hal Winkler
10. Bert Lindsay

Scotty Bowman Top 10 Canadian Goalies
1. Jacques Plante
2. Terry Sawchuk
3. Glenn Hall
4. Patrick Roy
5. Martin Brodeur
6. Ken Dryden
7. Bernie Parent
8. Grant Fuhr
9. Billy Smith
10. Tony Esposito

The Score Top 10 NHL Goalies
1. Dominik Hasek
2. Martin Brodeur
3. Patrick Roy
4. Ken Dryden
5. Jacques Plante
6. Terry Sawchuk
7. Tony Esposito
8. Bernie Parent
9. George Hainsworth
10. Glenn Hall


There's variation, but some combination of the 3 O6 goalies and 3 90s goalies are present everywhere.
 

DN28

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Jan 2, 2014
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Here’s a case for Vladimír Dzurilla. If he appears later in the discussion, I’ll try to expand on him in more detail.

From a group of non-NHL European goalies, Dzurilla deserves to appear in the final ranking. He might be unfairly treated by some people who only glanced at his career and compare him head-to-head with Holeček. With the non-NHLers though, the peaks of the most noteworthy goalies do not overlap. That’s something we should keep in mind. Martin peaked in the early to mid 1960s, Dzurilla peaked in the late 1960-early 1970s, Holeček peaked in the mid 1970s, Tretiak peaked in the early 1980s.

Dzurilla’s talent was imminent. He first played the Czechoslovak league game in 1959-60 as a 17 y/o. He got into the National team next season in Nov. 1960 just after 9 league games that he had played so far. He would have started his international career at the 1962 WHC but Czechoslovaks and Soviets declined their participation so his first championship experience came one year later.

His prime covers mainly the 1965-1972 period (age 23-30). Dzurilla dominated the ’65 WHC (incl. a memorable 8:0 win over Canada). This was followed by good but not great 1966 season. He missed most of 1967 due to knee injury which required meniscus surgery.

Dzurilla suffered another knee injury at the first league game of the 1968 season. Fortunately it didn’t require another surgery, he got back into his game in time for the Olympics. He became a clear best Czechoslovak goalie again.

His play continued to improve as he became one of the top European players through 1969. Won both politically charged games against the USSR. Dzurilla ended the 1st encounter with a shutout which I believe hadn’t happened before. Soviets scored (even if they lost) in every game against a European opponent in a major tournament between 1954-1968. Dzurilla was considered the most important contributor to these big wins since Jan Suchý missed the 2nd game due to injury.

Dzurilla may have hit his peak during 1970. He played his best domestically, crushed his goalie competitors and was one of the main challengers to Jan Suchý placement in the Golden Stick voting. Dzurilla’s SV% lead (0.935) over the others was quite something. See below the 1st column (games played), 2nd column (goals allowed), 3rd column (saves), 4th column (SV%):
1970.JPG

However, he faltered at the ’70 WHC. He was a disappointment there as if he ran out of energy. His backup was injured so Dzurilla had to play in each game anyway.

Dzurilla wasn’t a member of the National team over the course 1971 season. He did come back in 1972 where he became the NT starter at the ’72 Olympics, and backup behind Holeček at the ’72 WHC. Dzurilla was considered a bit better than Holeček in this season (finished 3rd in GS voting, Holeček ended 5th). He had a very good domestic season again (leading 0.931 SV%):
1972.JPG

Dzurilla turned 30 at this point. He remained relevant in 1973 but wasn’t nominated for the Championship. Changed his club at the start of 1974 season. Everyone thought he’s quitely closing off his career at this point. In fact there was even a random fan question in the press around 74-75 directed at Karel Gut (CSSR coach) whether Dzurilla can return to the National team. Gut responded with a “no chance” statement and instead, the hockey association organized a retirement ceremony to Dzurilla in the mid-70s during one of exhibition games…

This is written to provide context for his 1976 comeback and to properly frame Dzurilla’s career. He’s the 1960s and early 1970s goaltender. Dzurilla’s 1976-1978 years represents something similar as.. to give a modern example.. as maybe Chris Osgood’s later Detroit runs in 08 & 09. Dzurilla recorded the league’s best SV% in the ’76 season narrowly over Holeček (0.924 to 0.923). When Dzurilla boosted his reputation in front of NA audience at the Canada Cup, he was half a decade past his prime in an age where a good chunk of his former 1965 national team players had already a good coaching career going on. Dzurilla was the starting goalkeeper of the Czechoslovak team when they won 1977 WHC gold medal.

It would be interesting to find out more about Dzurilla’s resurgence. There are some hints. After 1966 WHC, writers speculated that Dzurilla’s reflexes are too good for his own sake. They allow him to rely just on them for most of games so that he forgets about his technique which is subsequently exposed when he faces the Soviet attacks.

As he grew old, he must have polished his style. I imagine he put more structure into his aggressive driving out of the crease. In 1978, a former National team goalie (Vladimír Dvořáček) praised the, now 36 y/o goaltender, the most out of the league’s starters: “Always delivers reliable performance, draws from his experience, excellent work with the stick, covering the space and glove saves.”

Canadian scouts always found liking in Dzurilla’s aggressive style, in his challenging of skaters either by cutting the angles or agitating them, shouting at his teammates to cover their spot, plus his exceptional stickhandling (no other Euro goalie came close this aspect). He had plenty of opportunities to enter the NHL throughout his career. Compared to Holeček or Tretiak, he was more of a standup goalie. Butterfly was definitely not his way to run the business.
__________________________________________

Overall, he has 7-8 relevant seasons in which he was either the #1 goalie or at least #2 in Europe. Has greater longevity than most of his competitors during the time he played. He guarded the net in front of Sven Tumba Johansson when he dressed the National team uniforms 1st time in 1960 against Sweden. He got to watch generations of Soviet players beginning with Sologubov, ending with Fetisov in 1977. He led the SC Riesersee club to the German league championship in 1981.

The other side of the coin? There are some empty seasons and some poor games against top opponents (primarily against the Soviets). His highs were not as great as those of Tretiak or Holeček. There is more volatility of Dzurilla’s performance year to year.

Top 50-60 goalie.
 
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VanIslander

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Tuukka Rask
Tim Thomas

... have been greater than most others over a 20-year span, certainly top 5 in key areas.

Hope they make your long lists.
 

MXD

Partying Hard
Oct 27, 2005
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I think at the very top there's a "canon" across media and it's probably there for a good reason.

The Hockey News' Top 10 goalies

1. Terry Sawchuk
2. Patrick Roy
3. Martin Brodeur
4. Jacques Plante
5. Dominik Hasek
6. Glenn Hall
7. Ken Dryden
8. Bill Durnan
9. George Hainsworth
10. Turk Broda

I assume Tretiak was structurally excluded

The Hockey News' Top 10 International Goalies

1. Vladislav Tretiak
2. Jiri Holocek
3. Seth Martin
4. Peter Lindmark
5. Vladimir Dzurilla
6. Jiri Kralik
7. Viktor Konovalenko
8. Leif Holmqvist
9. Bohumil Modry
10. Urpo Ylonen

The Hockey News' Top 10 Pre-NHL Goalies

1. Hugh Lehman
2. Percy LeSueur
3. Riley Hern
4. Paddy Moran
5. Tom Paton
6. Bouse Hutton
7. Billy Nicholson
8. Joe Daley
9. Hal Winkler
10. Bert Lindsay

Scotty Bowman Top 10 Canadian Goalies
1. Jacques Plante
2. Terry Sawchuk
3. Glenn Hall
4. Patrick Roy
5. Martin Brodeur
6. Ken Dryden
7. Bernie Parent
8. Grant Fuhr
9. Billy Smith
10. Tony Esposito

The Score Top 10 NHL Goalies
1. Dominik Hasek
2. Martin Brodeur
3. Patrick Roy
4. Ken Dryden
5. Jacques Plante
6. Terry Sawchuk
7. Tony Esposito
8. Bernie Parent
9. George Hainsworth
10. Glenn Hall


There's variation, but some combination of the 3 O6 goalies and 3 90s goalies are present everywhere.
Eh... I get that there's some dating concerns, but if you have George Hainsworth in your lists, but do not have Charlie Gardiner (and, to a much lesser extent, Roy Worters), the whole material becomes super easy to discard.

EDIT : ... Yeah, ranking Bert Lindsay while not ranking Hap Holmes (in a list where Lehman and Winkler are ranked, so NHL'ers not excluded) doesn't pass the smell test either.

EDIT 2 : Just so it's clear, I know those aren't your lists.
 
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Michael Farkas

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I never did get a real answer in that thread. It was plainly laid out that if you're willing to do the insane mental gymnastics to give Thomas 20 years of...fudge...or whatever, then Cechmanek is clearly better.

I think any list that has those guys is gross. But I think it's mentally disingenuous to have Thomas and not Cechmanek. I can't see how that's justified.
 
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MXD

Partying Hard
Oct 27, 2005
51,673
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I never did get a real answer in that thread. It was plainly laid out that if you're willing to do the insane mental gymnastics to give Thomas 20 years of...fudge...or whatever, then Cechmanek is clearly better.

I think any list that has those guys is gross. But I think it's mentally disingenuous to have Thomas and not Cechmanek. I can't see how that's justified.
Thomas was definitely better than Cechmanek (let alone Rask) in crunch time.
 
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VanIslander

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Sep 4, 2004
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But I think it's mentally disingenuous to have Thomas and not Cechmanek. I can't see how that's justified.
Seriously?

(It's nearly midnight here and we're at a chicken hof, as Koreans say, so i'll be a bit before i post the many ways Thomas is better than that guy. It'll include save percentage over more than double the number of games played, playoff accolades and anecdotes from respected figures.)
 

Professor What

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Sep 16, 2020
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I think Thomas is overrated. To the point that he's not in my top 50. But talking about a top 80 list that doesn't include him seems a bit odd to me. Plenty of reasons to think he got too much praise for a while, but he had a couple of monster seasons and won a Smythe to boot. I think he's got to make the long list.
 

Dennis Bonvie

Registered User
Dec 29, 2007
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I never did get a real answer in that thread. It was plainly laid out that if you're willing to do the insane mental gymnastics to give Thomas 20 years of...fudge...or whatever, then Cechmanek is clearly better.

I think any list that has those guys is gross. But I think it's mentally disingenuous to have Thomas and not Cechmanek. I can't see how that's justified.

Seem to recall Tim Thomas on your list last time.

But I know you have gotten smarter.

As for Cechmanek, his playoff accomplishments certainly pale compared to Thomas. I know from your perspective they both sucked but, some people like to look at the bottom line.
 

Michael Farkas

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Thomas was definitely better than Cechmanek (let alone Rask) in crunch time.
That is correct one time in the NHL (where he nearly blew several series by being the opposite of clutch). But again, if Thomas gets credit for being one of the best goalies in the 5th best league in the world because he wasn't good enough to play in a better league. Then surely Cechmanek gets credit for winning much more in a better league, right?
 

MXD

Partying Hard
Oct 27, 2005
51,673
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That is correct one time in the NHL (where he nearly blew several series by being the opposite of clutch). But again, if Thomas gets credit for being one of the best goalies in the 5th best league in the world because he wasn't good enough to play in a better league. Then surely Cechmanek gets credit for winning much more in a better league, right?
That's the thing. He didn't blew them.

This shouldn't be interpreted as praise for Thomas, mind you.
 

Michael Farkas

Celebrate 68
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Seriously?

(It's nearly midnight here and we're at a chicken hof, as Koreans say, so i'll be a bit before i post the many ways Thomas is better than that guy. It'll include save percentage over more than double the number of games played, playoff accolades and anecdotes from respected figures.)
I had Korean chicken last night myself here in Manhattan. Cheers to that.

As a potential time saver (thread saver?), before you hit me with save pct and other noise, just make sure those points weren't already covered here: Roman Cechmanek vs John Vanbiesbrouck
 

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