HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Preliminary Discussion Thread

How many goalies should make the final list?

  • Final list of 60, Round 1 list submission of 80

    Votes: 21 75.0%
  • Final list of 80, Round 1 list submission of 100

    Votes: 7 25.0%

  • Total voters
    28
  • Poll closed .

ContrarianGoaltender

Registered User
Feb 28, 2007
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tcghockey.com
Point of discussion with respect to Irbe, who I also rate quite highly (he made my top 60 last time): I've long thought that HOH has a tendency to overrate non-NHL Europeans relative to Europeans who came over mid-career. The latter guys seem to get little credit for their international achievements because their framing and peer comparisons become NHL-focused, while at the same time they are also penalized for the adjustment period to North America.

I know it's HOH consensus, but I don't get the logic for ranking Jiri Kralik or Pekka Lindmark ahead of Irbe. I'd take Irbe's international record over either of theirs pretty comfortably, and then on top of that he played an additional 568 games in the NHL. I'm not sure how that adds up to a worse score, unless we're arguing that 1980s world championships are orders of magnitude more valuable than international tournaments that happened a decade or more later for some reason.
 

Michael Farkas

Celebrate 68
Jun 28, 2006
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It's the ol' "prospect pool" theory...there's this weird aura that gets a lot of credit. Glimpses and fits and starts and that's plenty.

"Well, he could have..." well, he didn't. And some of these guys had the opportunity and weren't good enough. I haven't watched Kralik yet I don't think, but Pekka Lindmark does absolutely nothing for me. If his games against East Germany or whatever are worth more than Irbe willing an expansion team past the Cup favorites, that's fine...but again, this is where the video does so much good. We don't have to live in this fog of war. Even if you're not using film so much for this...you've at least seen NHL games with great goalies and you can tell that some of these guys stick out in a negative way. And then you go, "oh, look at that...he played in a fairly new Swedish pro league and not in the NHL, in part, because he wasn't good enough" and then you just leave him off your list and put Cory Schneider on it instead...
 

DN28

Registered User
Jan 2, 2014
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Prague
Lindmark has a lot of question marks and he's not on my list either but ranking Irbe above Králík is going to far. Králík has a legit case being the best goalie in the world for one season. Irbe played for long and stayed an NHL starter for an impressive amount of time. But he never came close to any kind of trophy or achievement suggesting he belongs in the most upper tier of Gs, or did he?

Take a look at Králík's 1985. The only non-USSR player ever winning the Izvestia trophy (=Best European Player award) between 1979-1989 was Jiří Králík. Makarov, Fetisov, Krutov, Mikhailov, Tretiak and... Jiří Králík in 1985... These were the winners of the award for best player in Europe. This coincides with the Czechs winning their only 1980s championship in 1985, defeating the Soviets and the Canadians (with probably their best on-paper team they gathered and sent to Europe over that decade).

Jiří Králík was universally acclaimed as the best player of that championship winning team by the coaches and the media. He swept all the awards. What gives more credence to Králík '85 version is his domestic performance. He made his club ("Gottwaldov") a contender in this season. Before, Gottwaldov was a middling team bouncing between the 1st and 2nd league. By the end of 1985, I think it was Luděk Bukač, who also quit the National team after '85 after his 5-year tenure, who summarized the 1st half of the 1980s as a dip of Czechoslovak hockey because it lacked the players of Martinec, Holeček, Pospíšil calibre... and that only Králík reached their level.

Domestic and international stats also support him.

Králík was a late bloomer who peaked in his 30s. His case lies on 3 high-end seasons (1982, 1983, 1985). That is not a lot... But there is also nothing to dispute about those 3 seasons. Quotes, award votes, stats... If a non-NHL Euro goalie checks all of these boxes, his case for really being good is a lot more substantiated than just relying on two quotes from his teammates while recording terrible SV%, or conversely looking at great stats while not factoring in any domestic or international all-star votes etc. Králík is in my top-70.
______________________________________________________

1982 League
Save percentage
of ‘top 15 goalies’ of the season:
1. Králík (Jihlava): 42 games / 81 goals allowed / 1153 saves / 1.93 GAA / 0.9344 %
2. Hašek (Pardubice): 11 games / 34 goals allowed / 437 saves / 3.09 GAA / 0.9278 %
3. Šindel (Vítkovice): 39 games / 129 goals allowed / 1640 saves / 3.37 GAA / 0.9271 %
4. Lang (Brno): 41 games / 155 goals allowed / 1955 saves / 3.85 GAA / 0.9265 %
5. Hamal (Sparta): 42 games / 142 goals allowed / 1661 saves / 3.41 GAA / 0. 9212 %
6. Kapoun (Litvínov): 40 games / 148 goals allowed / 1601 saves / 3.77 GAA / 0.9154 %
7. Svoboda (Plzeň): 41 games / 158 goals allowed / 1628 saves / 3.92 GAA / 0.9115 %
8. Radvanovský (Pardubice): 25 games / 97 goals allowed / 971 saves / 3.88 GAA / 0.9092 %
9. Podešva (Gottwaldov): 39 games / 120 goals allowed / 1114 saves / 3.10 GAA / 0.9028 %
10. Krása (Kladno): 25 games / 72 goals allowed / 628 saves / 2.96 GAA / 0.8971 %
11. Kolísek (Kladno): 20 games / 62 goals allowed / 533 saves / 3.16 GAA / 0.8958 %
12. Hrabák (Trenčín): 38 games / 129 goals allowed / 1076 saves / 3.40 GAA / 0.8929 %
13. Gula (Č. Budějovice): 42 games / 137 goals allowed / 1065 saves / 3.26 GAA / 0.8860 %
14. Švárny (Košice): 13 games / 59 goals allowed / 411 saves / 4.66 GAA / 0.8745 %
15. Orenič (Košice): 17 games / 76 goals allowed / 525 saves / 4.57 GAA / 0.8735 %


World Championship 1982
1. Vladimir Myshkin (USSR): 3 games / 1 goal allowed / 59 saves / 0.44 GAA / 0.9833
2. Jiří Králík (CSSR): 10 games / 17 goals allowed / 221 saves / 1.75 GAA / 0.9286
3. Hannu Kamppuri (FIN): 6 games / 20 goals allowed / 189 saves / 3.38 GAA / 0.9043
4. Greg Millen (CAN): 5 games / 14 goals allowed / 125 saves / 2.80 GAA / 0.8993
5. Gilles Meloche (CAN): 5 games / 16 goals allowed / 140 saves / 3.20 GAA / 0.8974
6. Vladislav Tretiak (USSR): 8 games / 19 goals allowed / 165 saves / 2.45 GAA / 0.8967
7. Peter Lindmark (SWE): 7 games / 20 goals allowed / 154 saves / 3.20 GAA / 0.8851
8. Göte Wälitalo (SWE): 4 games / 15 goals allowed / 112 saves / 4.01 GAA / 0.8819
9. Karl Friesen (W. GER): 7 games / 30 goals allowed / 220 saves / 4.28 GAA / 0.8800
10. Jim Corsi (ITA): 7 games / 38 goals allowed / 277 saves / 5.85 GAA / 0.8794
11. Glenn Resch (USA): 4 games / 21 goals allowed / 132 saves / 5.25 GAA / 0.8627
12. Steve Janaszak (USA): 3 games / 17 goals allowed / 87 saves / 5.67 GAA / 0.8365
13. Hannu Lassila (FIN): 2 games / 11 goals allowed / 37 saves / 10.15 GAA / 0.7708
14. Nick Sanza (ITA): 1 game / 6 goals allowed / 19 saves / 12.00 GAA / 0.7600
15. Karel Lang (CSSR): 1 game / 3 goals allowed / 3 saves / 10.00 GAA /
0.5000
Source
IIHF Directoriate´s Best Goaltender: Jiří Králík
All-Star Team Voting: 1. Jiří Králík (33 first place finishes + 12 second place finishes = 33*5 + 12*3 = 201 points), 2. Jim Corsi (23+19=172 points), 3. Vladislav Tretiak (14+9=97 points), 4. Hannu Kamppuri (3+19=72 points), 5. Karl Friesen (4+12=56 points), 6. Greg Millen (3+5=30 points), 7. Göte Wälitalo (3+1=18 points), 8. Gilles Meloche (1+3=14 points), 9. Peter Lindmark (0+2=6 points)

1982 Golden Stick voting
1. Milan Nový 722 TJ Poldi SONP Kladno
2. Miroslav Dvořák 573 TJ Motor České Budějovice
3. Jiří Lála 563 ASD Dukla Jihlava
4. Jindřich Kokrment 549 TJ CHZ ČSSP Litvínov

5. Jiří Králík 542 ASD Dukla Jihlava
6. Igor Liba 340 TJ VSŽ Košice
7. Eduard Uvíra 259 ASD Dukla Jihlava
8. Karel Lang 240 TJ Zetor Brno
9. Vincent Lukáč 203 ASD Dukla Jihlava
10. Pavel Richter 189 TJ Sparta ČKD Praha


1982 Izvestia Trophy voting
1) Vladislav Tretyak 224 (61-11-19)
2) Milan Nový 217 (46-31-17)
3) Viktor Shalimov 191 (58-7-3)
4) Jiří Lála 175 (56-2-3)
5) Miroslav Dvořák 160 (24-27-34)
6) Sergey Makarov 141 (38-12-3)

7) Jiří Králík or Patrik Sundstrom
8) Valery Vasilyev 80 (2-28-18)
9) Jiří Králík or Patrik Sundstrom
____________________________________________________

1983 League
Save percentage of ‘top 12 goalies’ of the season:
1. Králík (Jihlava): 43 games / 90 goals allowed / 1085 saves / 2.25 GAA / 0.9234 %
2. Hašek (Pardubice): 42 games / 105 goals allowed / 1158 saves / 2.67 GAA / 0.9169 %
3. Lang (Brno): 44 games / 185 goals allowed / 1870 saves / 4.32 GAA / 0.9100 %
4. Šindel (Vítkovice): 39 games / 124 goals allowed / 1229 saves / 3.86 GAA / 0.9084 %
5. Svoboda (Plzeň): 43 games / 158 goals allowed / 1440 saves / 3.97 GAA / 0.9011 %
6. Gula (Č. Budějovice): 41 games / 132 goals allowed / 1173 saves / 3.40 GAA / 0.8989 %
7. Beňo (Slovan): 25 games / 85 goals allowed / 746 saves / 3.86 GAA / 0.8977 %
8. Hamal (Sparta): 44 games / 155 goals allowed / 1278 saves / 3.54 GAA / 0.8918 %
9. Kapoun (Litvínov): 37 games / 130 goals allowed / 1071 saves / 3.81 GAA / 0.8918 %
10. Ševela (Slovan): 24 games / 85 goals allowed / 686 saves / 4.09 GAA / 0.8898 %
11. Podešva (Gottwaldov): 35 games / 107 goals allowed / 816 saves / 3.72 GAA / 0.8841 %
12. Krása (Kladno): 27 games / 97 goals allowed / 520 saves / 4.20 GAA / 0.8428 %


World Championship 1983
1. Vladislav Tretiak (USSR): 7 games / 4 goals allowed / 141 saves / 0.57 GAA / 0.9724
2. Hannu Kamppuri (FIN): 4 games / 15 goals allowed / 222 saves / 3.75 GAA / 0.9367

3. Jiří Králík (CSSR): 8 games / 16 goals allowed / 222 saves / 2.00 GAA / 0.9328
4. Erich Weishaupt (W. GER): 5 games / 13 goals allowed / 163 saves / 2.60 GAA / 0.9261
5. Vladimir Myshkin (USSR): 3 games / 6 goals allowed / 67 saves / 2.00 GAA / 0.9178
6. Dominik Hašek (CSSR): 2 games / 5 goals allowed / 53 saves / 2.50 GAA / 0.9138
7. Rick Wamsley (CAN): 10 games / 30 goals allowed / 301 saves / 3.00 GAA / 0.9094
8. Pelle Lindbergh (SWE): 9 games / 27 goals allowed / 249 saves / 3.00 GAA / 0.9022
9. Kari Takko (FIN): 6 games / 25 goals allowed / 219 saves / 4.19 GAA / 0.8975
10. Karl Friesen (W. GER): 5 games / 21 goals allowed / 171 saves / 4.20 GAA / 0.8906
11. Jim Corsi (ITA): 10 games / 50 goals allowed / 353 saves / 5.28 GAA / 0.8759
12. Rene Bielke (E. GER): 10 games / 36 goals allowed / 227 saves / 3.75 GAA / 0.8631
13. Göte Wälitalo (SWE): 1 game / 5 goals allowed / 24 saves / 5.00 GAA / 0.8276
14. Nick Sanza (ITA): 1 game / 6 goals allowed / 22 saves / 11.20 GAA / 0.7857
15. Ingolf Spantig (E. GER): 1 game / 4 goals allowed / 9 saves / 10.23 GAA / 0.6923

Source
IIHF Directoriate´s Best Goaltender: Vladislav Tretiak
All-Star Team Voting: 1. Vladislav Tretiak, 2. Jiří Králík

1983 Golden Stick voting
1. Vincent Lukáč 748 TJ VSŽ Košice
2. Jiří Králík 702 ASD Dukla Jihlava
3. Jiří Lála 661 TJ Motor České Budějovice
4. Igor Liba 476 ASD Dukla Jihlava
5. Pavel Richter 376 TJ Sparta ČKD Praha
6. Ladislav Svozil 367 TJ Vítkovice
7. Milan Chalupa 329 ASD Dukla Jihlava
8. Dušan Pašek 248 TJ Slovan CHZJD Bratislava
9. Dárius Rusnák 194 TJ Slovan CHZJD Bratislava
10. Dominik Hašek 187 TJ Tesla Pardubice


1983 Izvestia Trophy voting
1) Vladislav Tretyak 346 (82-43-14)
2) Vladimir Krutov 214 (49-29-9)
3) Jiří Lála 195 (52-18-2)
4) Sergey Makarov 123 (26-19-7)

5) Jiří Králík 109
6) Igor Larionov
7) František Černík 76
8) ?
9) Aleksey Kasatonov
10) Vyacheslav Fetisov
11) Dušan Pašek 49

_____________________________________________________

1985 League
Save percentage
of ‘top 10 goalies’ of the season:
1. Králík (Gottwaldov): 2427 min. / 89 goals allowed / 906 saves / 2.20 GAA / 0.9106 %
2. Cagaš (Trenčín): 1638 min. / 84 goals allowed / 809 saves / 3.08 GAA / 0.9059 %
3. Hašek (Pardubice): 2419 min. / 131 goals allowed / 1170 saves / 3.25 GAA / 0.8993 %
4. Beňo (Slovan): 1443 min. / 97 goals allowed / 850 saves / 4.03 GAA / 0.8976 %
5. Fürbacher (Plzeň): 1312 min. / 83 goals allowed / 689 saves / 3.53 GAA / 0.8925 %
6. Šindel (Jihlava): 2370 min. / 104 goals allowed / 855 saves / 2.63 GAA / 0.8916 %
7. Lang (Brno): 2412 min. / 137 goals allowed / 1119 saves / 3.41 GAA / 0.8909 %
8. Švárny (Košice): 2261 min. / 115 goals allowed / 894 saves / 3.05 GAA / 0.8860 %
9. Gula (Č. Budějovice): 1855 min. / 100 goals allowed / 742 saves / 3.23 GAA / 0.8812 %
10. Kohout (Sparta): 2429 min. / 132 goals allowed / 941 saves / 3.26 GAA / 0.8770 %


World Championship 1985
1. Vladimir Myshkin (USSR): 10 games / 13 goals allowed / 191 saves / 1.34 GAA / 0.9363
2. Steve Weeks (CAN): 5 games / 9 goals allowed / 109 saves / 2.04 GAA /
0.9237
3. Jiří Králík (CSSR): 9 games / 17 goals allowed / 201 saves / 1.38 GAA / 0.9220
4. Pat Riggin (CAN): 4 games / 10 goals allowed / 93 saves / 2.81 GAA / 0.9029
5. Jukka Tammi (FIN): 3 games / 10 goals allowed / 87 saves / 2.33 GAA / 0.8969
6. Kari Takko (FIN): 7 games / 23 goals allowed / 188 saves / 3.28 GAA / 0.8910
7. Karl Friesen (W. GER): 9 games / 34 goals allowed / 264 saves / 3.92 GAA / 0.8859
8. Rolf Ridderwall (SWE): 4 games / 17 goals allowed / 111 saves / 4.43 GAA / 0.8672
9. John Vanbiesbrouck (USA): 9 games / 46 goals allowed / 298 saves / 5.64 GAA / 0.8663
10. Egon Schmeisser (E. GER): 3 games / 13 goals allowed / 75 saves / 5.77 GAA / 0.8523
11. Jaromír Šindel (CSSR): 1 game / 5 goals allowed / 28 saves / 5.00 GAA / 0.8485
12. Chris Terreri (USA): 2 games / 12 goals allowed / 66 saves / 6.48 GAA / 0.8462
13. Peter Lindmark (SWE): 7 games / 23 goals allowed / 123 saves / 3.73 GAA / 0.8425
14. Rick Wamsley (CAN): 2 games / 11 goals allowed / 57 saves / 5.50 GAA / 0.8382
15. Sergei Mylnikov (USSR): 1 game / 3 goals allowed / 14 saves / 9.00 GAA / 0.8235
16. Rene Bielke (E. GER): 8 games / 51 goals allowed / 201 saves / 6.45 GAA / 0.7976
17. Helmut de Raaf (W. GER): 2 games / 7 goals allowed / 11 saves / 5.25 GAA / 0.6111

Source
IIHF Directoriate´s Best Goaltender: Jiří Králík
All-Star Team Voting: 1. Jiří Králík (92 votes), 2. John Vanbiesbrouck (12 votes)

1985 Golden Stick voting
1. Jiří Králík 807 TJ Gottwaldov
2. Igor Liba 698 TJ VSŽ Košice
3. Miloslav Hořava 623 ASD Dukla Jihlava
4. Petr Rosol 416 ASD Dukla Jihlava
5. Vincent Lukáč 406 TJ VSŽ Košice
6. Vladimír Růžička 368 TJ CHZ ČSSP Litvínov
7. Petr Klíma 355 ASD Dukla Jihlava
8. Jiří Lála 222 TJ Motor České Budějovice
9. Dárius Rusnák 211 TJ Slovan CHZJD Bratislava
10. Antonín Stavjaňa 182 TJ Gottwaldov


1985 Izvestia Trophy voting
1) Jiří Králik 344 (102-17-4)
2) Sergey Makarov 313 (89-23-0)
3) Vyacheslav Fetisov 285 (62-47-5)
4) Jiří Lála 249 (37-64-10)
5) Vladimir Krutov 192 (23-51-21)
6) Aleksey Kasatonov 89 (16-18-5)
7) Vladimír Růžička 82 (19-12-1)
8) Kent Nilsson 52 (0-23-6)
9) Jiří Šejba 49 (7-3-22)
10) Hannu Järvenpää 23 (0-9-5)
 

McGuillicuddy

Registered User
Sep 6, 2005
1,297
203
All right, so...the "missing link" in the butterfly chain from Glenn Hall to Patrick Roy is NOT Tony Esposito. It's Roger Crozier. Now, Crozier's a tricky one because if you look at the career, I'm assuming he's not on many lists (?). But he was probably better Tony O was as far as butterfly goalies go...

He was an odd cat though. A lot of injury, illness (pancreatitis), likely undiagnosed mental issues...I think he tried to quit after his second year in the league and like ran into the Northern Ontario woods for months and then was convinced to come back.

I'm going to have him on my list.

Genuinely curious - can you elaborate on why you think Crozier carried the butterfly torch to hand off to Patrick Roy? Is it based on testimony from Roy? I thought Dan Bouchard was the goalie who influenced Roy's style the most. Maybe the butterfly chain is better described as Hall-->Crozier-->Bouchard-->Roy with Esposito as his own terminal branch.
 

jigglysquishy

Registered User
Jun 20, 2011
8,350
9,051
Regina, Saskatchewan
I think Georges Vezina should be considered a lock for top 15, should be on most people's top 10, and is the best candidate for breaking up the "big 8" (which I don't think really exists).

Best Goalie of His Era
The two biggest pre-consolidation names are Georges Vezina and Clint Benedict. From a pure numbers standpoint, Benedict has the edge. He lead the NHA/NHL in GAA 9 times to Vezina's 5. However, Benedict played on the best defensive team in the world for most of his prime. He had Nighbor with him from 1915-16 until 1923-24. He had Eddie Gerard from 1913-14 until 1922-23. He played in front of George Boucher and King Clancy. Once Benedict left the Sens in 1924-25, Vezina immediately leads in GAA. It's not that I think Benedict is weak (he's still in my top 15), but that if you look at trying to adjust for team-strength, Vezina having great numbers while Benedict has amazing numbers are corrected. It's not that Vezina played in front of bums (hello, Sprague Cleghorn), it's just that those Sens teams were stacked.

Longevity

Vezina lead the NHA first in 1910-11. He lead for the last time in 1924-25, his last healthy season. It's incredible longevity. If you take a step back, how many goalies were across a 15 year spectrum? Hasek, Roy, Brodeur, Hall, Plante. Tretiak? Is that it? You have guys with 15 years of good play, but leading GAA 15 years apart is all-time longevity. 1910s and 1920s players typically struggle with longevity with the rapid changes, so I find his longevity doubly impressive.

Georges Vezina

I. CONTEMPORARY OPINIONS

Attempting to create a chronology, based mostly on newspaper accounts. This post focuses on accounts from Vezina's career. I'll make another post on what people where saying about him in the decades after they retired

1910s: Vezina was considered the best goalie in the NHA/NHL and likely the world

The Calgary Daily Herald - Oct 30 1914 said:
There ???(I assume "is a") strong possibility that the National Hockey assiciation will this year be without the services of its most brilliant goalkeeper, Vezina of the Canadiens.
This paper was poorly scanned, but it was about a proposed deal that when Lalonde was playing out West, Vezina would be traded straight up for him to bring Lalonde back to Montreal.

The Montreal Daily Mail - Dec 13 1915 said:
During the intermission he hustled George Vezina, recognized as the best goal-keeper in the NHA, into one of the Guards uniforms.
This was from an a game where NHA all-stars played an army team. For the third period, the coach of the army team (Vezina's coach on the Habs.) snuck Vezina into the army teams goal. Here is the scoring per period:
1st: 4-1 NHA
2nd: 5-1 NHA
3rd: 3-1 Army

The Montreal Daily Mail - Mar 17 1916 said:
George Vezina, the brilliant goal-keeper of the Canadiens, often said to be as good as two men, jumped into prominence when he joined the Habitants in 1911. Born in Chicoutimi twenty-eight years ago, Vezina started playing goals when a youngster. Manager George Kennedy witnessed a game in which he was playing in 1910, and immediately signed him up. Ever since he has played in front of the nets for the Flying Frenchmen, and today is one of the highest payed goal-tenders in the business.

The Toronto World - Apr 5 1916 said:
Vezina, George: Goalkeeper, 28 years old, and from Chicoutimi. Joined the Canadiens in 1910 and made good on the jump. The most consistent goalkeeper in the N.H.A. and as clean a player as the game knows. His success is largely consequent upon the fact that he attends stricktly to business all the time, and never tries to pull any funny stuff.

The Morning Leader - Feb 26 1919 said:
...the goaltenders, who have demonstrated that they can stop the hard shots a la George Vezina and Hugh Lehman.
From a Regina paper, infers that Lehman is the class of the West and Vezina of the East.

The Morning Leader - Mar 8 1919 said:
Georges Vezina, goalkeeper of the Montreal Canadiens, who is conceded to be the best net guardian in the game.

early 1920s: Opinion seems to be split between Benedict and Vezina:

The Border Cities Star - Nov 25 1921 said:
Another development at Ottawa was the signing of Clint Benedict to occupy the nets for the Ottawa team during the forthcoming season Clint is generally regarded as the second best to George Vezina of the Flying Frenchmen.

The Senators and Benedict continued their roll into the 1920-1921 season. For the second consecutive year, Benedict was lauded as the best netminder in the NHL, even though Ottawa had dropped to second in the standings.

He certainly impressed a young rookie who joined the Senators before the 1921-1922 season – Francis “King” Clancy.
“He was superb. A lot of people say that Georges Vezina was the greatest goaltender in those early days of hockey, but if you look at the records you’ll see that Clint Benedict…had a better average.”

-Great Goaltenders: Stars of Hockey’s Golden Age by Jim Barber (note that Clancy appears to be referred to GAA).

Months before Vezina became ill, a panel of hockey experts voted him the best goaltender of all-time:

In 1925, MacLean's magazine asked Charlie H. Good, the Sporting Editor for the Toronto Daily News until that paper folded in 1919, to compile All-Time All-Star teams for their March 15, 1925 edition of the magazine. Good called upon his friends in the hockey world to help him with the list. The list of participants reads like a who's-who of the early hockey world:

Charles H. Good, W. A. Hewitt, Lester Patrick, J.F. Ahern, Tommy Gorman, W. J. Morrison, Lou Marsh, Bruce Boreham, K.G. H. McConnell, Roy Halpin, Ross Mackay, Harry Scott, O. F. Young, Art Ross, Frank Shaughnessey, James T. Sutherland, Bill Tackabery, Basil O'Meara, Ed. Baker, "Dusty" Rhodes, Walter McMullin, E. W.Ferguson, Joe Kincaid, and W. A. Boys, M.P.

The selected Vezina 1st Team All-Time-All-Star goalie. Percy LeSueur (of the previous generation) was 2nd team. Vezina's contemporaries Clint Benedict and Hugh Lehman were tied for 3rd Team

The March 17, 1925 Morning Leader report on MacLean's 1st Team makes one suspect that extra credit was given to deceased players. Noteably, Vezina, Cleghorn, and Nighbor were the only still-living players on the 1st Team:
Number One Team- Goal, Georges Vezina; defence, Sprague Cleghorn and Hod Stuart (deceased); center, Frank Nighbor; right wing, Allan, Scotty Davidson; left wing, Tommy Phillips (deceased)"

This timing is important because Vezina would not start to show signs of illness until the following October, was not diagnosed with tuberculosis until Nov 28, 1925, and did not die until March 26, 1926 (source = wikipedia).

So the MacLean's All-Time All-Star list is entirely untainted by Vezina's early death.

II. LEGACY

I'm focusing on opinions of people through the early 1950s - what people who saw them play thought about them after their careers.

The belief that Vezina was the best of his era seems fairly widespread

Jack Adam said:
When you talk about goaltenders, you have to start with Georges Vezina. By an almost unanimous vote of hockey people, he was the greatest the game has ever had. I remember him fairly well.

In 1918 when I broke into the National League with Toronto, Vezina was with Les Canadians. He was near the end of his career, but was still a marvel in the nets, as I found out the first time I skated in on him.

I thought I had him beat, I thought I had a cinch goal, but he had figured exactly what I was going to do, and brushed aside the shot, as easily as you'd strike a match.

Jack Adams said:
Vezina was a big fellow... I'd say he was about five feet 11 inches tall, without his skates on and he looked even taller in uniform because he always wore a red and blue toque. He had big hands and he used an exceptionally long stick.
...
He played a stand-up game, sliding from post to post, making save that seemed impossible by outguessing the puck carriers.

That was his strong point. Like all great goalers, he studied the styles of every forward in the league. He could sense what one of them would do under a given set of circumstances and was usually prepared. He guess wrong sometimes, of course, but not often.
...
I played against Vezina for three or four years. Many times he broke my heart by turning back what looked like a certain score. He was a real master. He had perfect co-ordination and an uncanny instinct.
Click to expand...

Jack Adams then went on to say that due to changes in the nature of the position, Vezina might not actually be any more effective than the best recent goalies (Charlie Gardiner, John Ross Roach, and Tiny Thompson were named). Marty Barry was present for the interview and this is his reaction:

Adams was now striking at one of the legends of hockey. Marty Barry, sitting on a rubber table next to the Honey Walker, was startled. Never before had he heard anyone question Vezina's superiority. He was too surprised to interrupt and Adams went on (about the changes in the game making a goalie's job harder since Vezina's time)
...
"I see what you mean," said Barry, only half convinced.

The Sunday Sun, Feb 1, 1936

I think it's clear that rightly or wrongly by 1936 - 10 years after Vezina's death - "conventional wisdom" considered him the best goalie of the era - better than Clint Benedict, Hugh Lehman, or Hap Holmes.

Later, in 1953:

Jack Adams said he thought that the only old-timer who might measure up to the to the modern goalers was the immortal Georges Vezina himself.
...
But Vezina played in the days of parallel passing and kitty-bar-the-door when a lot of shots were fired from far out. We doubt if he would be as successful today unless he changed his style. But we think that Vezina, Clint Benedict, George Haimsworth, Roy Worters, and other great goalers of the past would be about to adapt to the changing conditions. They were only as good as they had to be.

Montreal Gazette, Mar 9, 1953

There are some who would picked Benedict, however

The boys were talking about goaltending greats in the aftergame discussion at Cornell last night and Jim McCafffrey was firm in his stand that Benedict was tops.... JP is willing to settle for Frank Brimsek among the present-day puck stoppers and calls Jack Crawford the best defenseman of all...

Ottawa Cititzen, March 10, 1943

In 1948, Kenny McKenize, hockey journalist and co-founder of The Hockey News called Benedict the greatest goaltender of all-time. He recalled a save Benedict made on Duke Keats that made Keats "so mad that he couldn't speak for 2 hours after the game."

Vancouver Sun, Oct 13, 1948

When we discussed it in the pre-merger project, there was general consensus that Vezina was the best goalie eligible.

Era Consideration
The earliest names that can contend with Vezina (b. 1887) are the 30s/40s era stars. Charlie Gardiner (b. 1904), Frank Brimsek (b. 1913), Turk Broda (b. 1914), Bill Durnan (b. 1916). If you consider Vezina the best of this bunch, then we're saying Vezina is the best goalie born ~1880 until Plante and Hall in 1929.

If Vezina is the best goalie born in a 50 year period, isn't that alone consideration for top 8? If you believe one of the aforementioned goalies is better than Vezina, shouldn't that merit top status? It doesn't sit right to me that no goalie born 1880-1929 is worthy of being a top 8 goalie. We don't see a goalie clearly overtake Vezina until Plante's prime in the late 1950s.


As a complete aside, I noticed his name is spelled "Visena" in January 1911.
 
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Michael Farkas

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Genuinely curious - can you elaborate on why you think Crozier carried the butterfly torch to hand off to Patrick Roy? Is it based on testimony from Roy? I thought Dan Bouchard was the goalie who influenced Roy's style the most. Maybe the butterfly chain is better described as Hall-->Crozier-->Bouchard-->Roy with Esposito as his own terminal branch.
I think this is probably a better representation of it, it's a great point by you. I guess I thought I'd scare people off by using Dan Bouchard because his numbers are bad. I will say that depending on how you slice butterfly up might change the chain.

I think there's sort of a "pure" butterfly goalie chain and that's guys that have no "plus"...sometimes the term out there is "butterfly plus" and that basically just means you have more to your game than the drop and block guys. So you look at Dan Bouchard, maybe Olaf Kolzig, up to Jean-Sebastien Giguere...where maybe there isn't a big "plus" to them, not the most mobile guys, not the best reflexes, not the best rebound control in some cases, right?

Then you have guys that are rooted in butterfly, but also had more to give...better angles, better glove, cognizant of what to do with rebounds, etc. that's Glenn Hall, that's Roger Crozier, that's Patrick Roy, that's up to Carey Price and a lot of guys going today...

Then I think way on the outside of that, I think you have guys that dabbled in butterfly save selection and save process, but didn't truly understand or utilize the benefits of it. It was part of their "I guess this gives me a shot at stopping this puck" process...Tony Esposito for me, some other goofballs along the way...like you said, it's kind of "his own terminal branch"...unfortunately, it didn't end with him. A lot of the worst goalies of record are this type, it sounds like quite a few will make our list haha
 

jigglysquishy

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Connor Hellebucyk's 2024 Playoffs; or Example 421 of Why SV% Doesn't Tell You Everything

A lot will be made of Connor Hellebucyk's 2024 campaign. How does one lead the league in SV%, win the Vezina, only to stink in the playoffs? Did he lose his hockey sense? No, he generally played strong, but the Jets did collapse around him and his SV% is reflective of that.

Game 1

The first goal against (0:28) is a result of a bad turnover from Pionk. Nishushkin has tons of space coming into the zone and picks the top far corner.

The second goal (2:35) is a result of a bad turnover at the net by Samberg. Kiviranta is left all alone in front.

The third goal (3:06) is a result of a turnover from Lowry. MacKinnon has time at the hashmarks.

The fourth goal (6:51) is deflected in front on the PK.

The fifth goal (8:38) is a screened goal from Makar on the PK.

The sixth goal (9:16) is a weird bounce with under a minute to go.

On the surface, an .870% is terrible. But Hellebucyk gets shelled with 46 shots in regulation. Three goals are a direct result of bad turnovers and two more are on the PK. He should have stopped 1, 3, and 5. But he has no chance of 2 and 4. When a guy like MacKinnon is given time that close to the net it's not just on the goalie.

Not a great game by Hellebucyk, but the constant own-end turnovers by the Jets make his stats look much worse than his play.

Game 2

The first goal (3:54) is a bad read off the faceoff.

The second goal (5:48) is a tip in front of the net by Lehkonen. This is a great example of a problem the Jets had all playoffs. The failure to clear the front of the net. When you watch all these goals (and the saves in between them) it's clear the Avs owned that real estate. The Jets are consistently caught flat footed and allow the Avs to pick shots and rebounds in close.

The third goal (6:24) is a bad play by Hellebucyk. He gets caught playing the puck and can't recover.

The fourth goal (7:17) is a result of a lazy offensive turnover from Ehlers. Manson scores on the breakaway.

Game 3


The first goal (1:14) is a result of a big rebound from Hellebucyk. Not defending him, but notice how the Jets stand around and have the Avs skate around them for the rebound?

The second goal (4:56) is a floater from MacKinnon on the PK. Note that it's only 2 minutes into the third period and Hellebucyk has already faced 29 shots.

The third goal (5:45) is another Avs PP goal where Hellebucyk is left without support. He pulls himself out of the play trying to follow the tic-tac-toe of the Avs.

The fourth goal (6:39) he has no chance on. Complete defensive collapse by the Jets. Bad turnover. Loss of coverage. Wide open man.

The fifth goal (7:33) comes a second after the Jets PK ends. Another example of the Jets giving Hellebucyk zero support.

So he gives up 5 goals, but only two are truly at even strength. He has no chance on goals 4 and 5.

Game 4


The first goal (1:28) Lehkonen is left all alone in front. Zero defensive effort by the Jets.

The second goal (5:33) is a tipped PP goal in front.

The third goal (6:43) is a an end-to-end by Makar. Stoppable.

The fourth goal (7:31) is another PK collapse by the Jets. On note, Hellebucyk faced 30 shots through 2 periods.

Game 5


The first goal (2:07) is a beautiful pass from MacKinnon to Nichushkin.

The second goal (3:51) is a result of Trenin having too much time in front of the net alone.

The third goal (4:45) is an own-goal re-direct by Pionk.

The fourth goal (7:14) is another front of net re-direct.

The fifth goal (8:27) is a beautiful pass by MacKinnon to Rantan on a 2-on-1.



So what's the takeaway? The Jets have a terrible PK against a skating team like the Avs. Hellebucyk is vulnerable to far blocker side. The Jets struggle to prevent front-of-net redirects. And the Jets struggle to clear the front of the net.

If you go through his videos of saves this series, Hellebucyk is positionally sound and tracks the Avs players well. He gets minimal defensive support from the Jets, particularly in front of the net. The Jets can't stay out of the box and keep getting circled on the PK.

On paper, it's not a good SV%. But in terms of what he could have actually done, I still maintain Hellebucyk was the best Jet this series. But history will remember him as the Vezina winner that collapsed in round 1.
 

frisco

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Still the classic Barrasso came out in a very winnable series vs. Montreal...when Peter Popovic scored his only career playoff goal and Benoit Brunet scored his lone playoff goal of the '98 playoffs (1 of his 5 career goals) from outside the dots to lose it for Pittsburgh...

The first one broke a tie with a 23 minutes left. The other one was the OT winner. It'd be nice to get a save on these. But long shots just ate him up sometimes...



In game 6, the 2-0 goal was like a Turner Stevenson backhand wraparound to basically shut the lights out on the series...

I don't know if it was because he played too many games in the regular season or what...but he just didn't look focused or sharp when we needed him most. Not unlike 1993, which is the other time he played more than 60 games in a season.

This same anonymous Montreal team would immediately get swept by Buffalo.

Just throw him in the bucket with the other inconsistent athletic goalies from that time period with Mike Vernon and Grant Fuhr. I don't see too much separating these guys. I guess maybe if you really drill down, I guess Fuhr and to a lesser extent Vernon could make a big, late save. Barrasso, less so...in which case, maybe put him with Bobrovsky.

Michael,

Why the hate, were you one of the many media-types that Barrasso ticked off over his career?:)

I've got a feeling you've compiled a database of video on every bad goal Barrasso let in going back 40 years stashed somewhere. Is there a Youtube channel I could subscribe to?

My Best-Carey
 

Michael Farkas

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YouTube channel is in my signature and in the left column below my username haha

I wasn't a media member in the Barrasso era no, but as a Penguin fan, he ticked me off plenty haha - I'm not saying he's bad...he's on my list somewhere. But he was difficult to trust, no? The biggest saves in our franchise history - Fleury on the Ovechkin breakaway, Fleury on Lidstrom, and the irony of Frank Pietrangelo's "The Save" on Stastny after Barrasso checked out...I'm not saying Barrasso wasn't good in parts of '91 and then again in '92 or that you need a "signature moment", but it's a little suspect that for all the flawed goaltenders this franchise has had, Barrasso's signature moments are the long goal to Tom Fitzgerland in game 7 against Florida in '96 and Hogue's shot from the neutral zone in game 7 against that nonsense Islanders team in '93.

It's like, "man, if we could get a save from the blueline..." who knows what happens, especially in '93.

I don't know where you have him on your list, we might not even have him that far apart...I know that you're his biggest supporter. But there's no way you can have him above Fleury, right?
 

overpass

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Speaking of the 1925 Macleans all-time team, it's worth listing the number of votes for each goaltender. Vezina received 5 of 14 votes, so he was the leader in voting but a minority had him as number one.

1. Georges Vezina received 5 votes from:
Tommy Gorman, Ottawa sportsman (1886-1961)
Bruce Boreham, editor of Winnipeg Tribune (1891-1987)
Roy Halpin of the Quebec Daily Telegraph, later coached Quebec Beavers
Ross MacKay, editor of Sault Ste Marie Star (1892-1945)
Harry Scott, editor of Calgary Albertan and former pro and amateur player (1885-1954)

2. Percy Lesueur received 3 votes from:
W.A. (Billy) Hewitt, sports editor of the Toronto Star and hugely influential organizer in amateur hockey (1875-1966)
Lou Marsh, assistant sports editor of the Toronto Star and NHL referee (1879-1936)
Ken McConnell, sportswriter for Edmonton Bulletin and football player

3. Hugh Lehman received 2 votes from:
Lester Patrick, player, coach, owner, Montreal and the west coast (1883-1960)
Oliver Frank Young, editor of Port Arthur News Chronicle (Port Arthur is part of what is now called Thunder Bay, in northwestern Ontario.) (1881-1957)

4. Clint Benedict received 2 votes from:
W.J. Morrison, longtime sports editor of Montreal Gazette (1875-1951)
Frank Shaughnessey, football, hockey, and baseball manager in Montreal and Ottawa (1883-1969)

Paddy Moran got one vote.
Art Ross - hockey player in Montreal and Ottawa and hockey coach (1885-1964)

John Ross Roach got one vote.
John E. "Gee" Ahern, Halifax Herald.
Hockey player, sportswriter, and promoter of sport in Nova Scotia

So Vezina had a clear plurality but not a majority of the best of all time.

The project made an effort at geographic diversity. Several of the voters were located in amateur hockey cities that didn't see a lot of pro hockey. What if we remove the following voters as being possibly less informed? MacKay, Young, and Ahern. And I'll cut Shaughnessy as well because he was an American who moved to Canada in 1912.

That leaves

Vezina (4) - Gorman, Boreham, Halpin, Scott)
Lesueur (3) - Hewitt, Marsh, McConnell
Lehman (1) - Patrick
Benedict (1) - Morrison
Moran (1) - Ross

And now I'll remove Boreham of Winnipeg, McConnell of Edmonton, and Scott of Calgary. While I acknowledge the contributions of the West, we're mostly talking about Eastern goaltenders here.

Vezina (2) - Gorman, Halpin
Lesueur (2) - Hewitt, Marsh
Lehman (1) - Patrick
Benedict (1) - Morrison
Moran (1) - Ross

Still a plurality but no majority for Vezina.

And if you want to narrow it down to the top 3 hockey resumes, we have Tommy Gorman picking Georges Vezina, Lester Patrick picking Hugh Lehman, and Art Ross picking Paddy Moran.

If there's one thing I would take away from this, it's that while Georges Vezina was considered the greatest goaltender of all time in 1925, it was far from a consensus.
 

Michael Farkas

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So what's the takeaway? The Jets have a terrible PK against a skating team like the Avs. Hellebucyk is vulnerable to far blocker side. The Jets struggle to prevent front-of-net redirects. And the Jets struggle to clear the front of the net.

If you go through his videos of saves this series, Hellebucyk is positionally sound and tracks the Avs players well. He gets minimal defensive support from the Jets, particularly in front of the net. The Jets can't stay out of the box and keep getting circled on the PK.

On paper, it's not a good SV%. But in terms of what he could have actually done, I still maintain Hellebucyk was the best Jet this series. But history will remember him as the Vezina winner that collapsed in round 1.
Yeah, Hellebuyck is a terrific goalie and should be quite high on lists in my opinion. Like, in the Belfour/Kiprusoff type area.

I don't think the Jets get enough discredit for how bad they were last year. There just isn't a lot of good defensive players on that team from top to bottom. The #1 guy isn't a defender. Their top line center seem to give up on it. You got Adam Lowry and some support pieces trying their best. It was a really tough year for MVP voting, there were a lot of guys deserving (yet, I don't think I'm happy with the actual winner)...I'm a little pleased that Hellebuyck was the goalie that was given consideration. That's as good of a measure as can be exacted given that we had a couple hundred assists seasons, a 70 goal guy, Hughes and Josi, etc.

Don't quote me on this, but I believe that 9 of the last 18 top vote-getters for the Hart among goalies either missed the playoffs or were eliminated in the first round. Something very close to that.
 
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Michael Farkas

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If there's one thing I would take away from this, it's that while Georges Vezina was considered the greatest goaltender of all time in 1925, it was far from a consensus.
That is an awfully wide spread. Hard to glean a lot of confidence from that. But it's also hard to figure out what we can glean from that...

A) Goaltending has always been hard to evaluate, while skaters are generally easier
B) Goaltending of this era was ubiquitously unstable, so like the 1980's it just centered around GAA and/or wins (so, also "A")
C) The vast majority of goaltenders were very good, and it came down to preference of style...like the 1960's
 

Professor What

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Yeah, Hellebuyck is a terrific goalie and should be quite high on lists in my opinion. Like, in the Belfour/Kiprusoff type area.
I like Kiprusoff, but do you see him and Belfour as being in the same range? I've got about 15 spots between them. I can see an argument that they peaked fairly close to each other, but Belfour has so much longer of a run as a #1 goalie that to me, he puts some space between himself and Kiprusoff. Does the fact that the latter was a workhorse for a while impact that for you?

Btw, I do have Hellebuyck close to Kiprusoff, as in one spot away.
 
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MXD

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On paper, it's not a good SV%. But in terms of what he could have actually done, I still maintain Hellebucyk was the best Jet this series. But history will remember him as the Vezina winner that collapsed in round 1.

The issue is, it's not this season. It's his whole career that he's been underwhelming in the crunch.
 

Michael Farkas

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I like Kiprusoff, but do you see him and Belfour as being in the same range? I've got about 15 spots between them. I can see an argument that they peaked fairly close to each other, but Belfour has so much longer of a run as a #1 goalie that to me, he puts some space between himself and Kiprusoff. Does the fact that the latter was a workhorse for a while impact that for you?

Btw, I do have Hellebuyck close to Kiprusoff, as in one spot away.
I see them in the same range. But we're probably not using the same formula to get there. Which is fine. Right now, my influence is vast majority skill focused. And I'll probably let the career accolades help order players within those tiers I guess. So, yeah, Belfour has a longer run. Though, I'd be remiss if I didn't note that Kiprusoff was the best goalie in Liiga in 1999...ordinarily, that doesn't register as anything, but sometimes it does haha - if this is one of those times, Kipper's prime gets several years added to it ;)

But yeah, that'll probably be my source of ordering within tiers as that will bring me closer to the group as a whole I think...I'm not sure that Belfour was better than Kiprusoff (I'm really not), so it might be a faster way to sort my groups or at least help sort them...
 
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overpass

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That is an awfully wide spread. Hard to glean a lot of confidence from that. But it's also hard to figure out what we can glean from that...

A) Goaltending has always been hard to evaluate, while skaters are generally easier
B) Goaltending of this era was ubiquitously unstable, so like the 1980's it just centered around GAA and/or wins (so, also "A")
C) The vast majority of goaltenders were very good, and it came down to preference of style...like the 1960's

I'll add one more observation. Very few of the voters picked their hometown goalies. The only such votes were Frank Shaughnessy, who managed the Ottawa's for a couple of years in the 1910s, picking Benedict. And arguably Lester Patrick picking the westerner Lehman, although they were opponents out west.

I think skaters were much more likely to get the hometown votes back then. Which suggests that goalies may have been more appreciated by their opponents than by their supporters.

Maybe it's always been like that. Hockey fans and sometimes even players and coaches have long separated the goalie from the team. It's easy to blame a loss on the opposing goaltender. "We outplayed them, but their goalie..." (Often with an implied or explicit criticism for their own goalie.)
 
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jigglysquishy

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The issue is, it's not this season. It's his whole career that he's been underwhelming in the crunch.
I wouldn't go that far.

He was elite in 2018. But it was really the only year he played behind a quality blue line

In 2018 against Minnesota, he posted a 0.924% in the first round. He posted a 0.929% in the second round, leading goaltenders in SV% and shots against. He slowed a bit in the third round (0.906%), but I do think it's another example of the Jets getting outskated.

In 2019, he has a 0.913% in a first round loss. Of note, Hellebucyk was second in shot attempts against in the whole round.

But then the Jets' blue-line collapses. Tobias Enstrom leaves for Europe. Dustin Byfuglien leaves 12 months later. Bryan Little can't play after 2019 (their only good defensive forward). Trouba gets traded. 3 of their top 4 defensemen in their 2018 run (and their number 2 centre) are gone after the 2019 season. Since then, it's been a B+ offensive squad with a C- blueline, carried by an A goalie.

The weak blue line leads the Jets to a qualifying round loss in 2020. He struggles at 0.904%, but he faces more shots than any other goalie. Price and Kuemper are only ones ahead in SA/game.

He posts a 0.950% against the Oilers in 2021, despite facing more shots than any other goalie. He struggles against Montreal (0.908%), but again faces a large volume of shots (32.5 shots against/game).

He has a genuinely poor 2023.

I still maintain he was the Jets' best player this last playoffs. He's not a Price or Hasek where he can mask a bad team. He is just consistently put in a position to fail and for every 7 great saves he makes he let's in 1. If the Jets were even a middling defensive team, his SV% shoots up to .910+% in the playoffs.
 

frisco

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I don't know where you have him on your list, we might not even have him that far apart...I know that you're his biggest supporter. But there's no way you can have him above Fleury, right?
I love MAF, but if you do a list of "Wretched Goals Given Up In The Playoffs" his is a lot longer than Tommy B's...

I'm not voting. Can I get an invite or how does one participate in these things?

My Best-Carey
 
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Michael Farkas

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I know that Fleury has had his struggles...especially late in the Bylsma era when, well, he wasn't exactly Scotty Bowman...but in terms of impact and quality, I'm not sure Barrasso isn't worse in that regard.

You're participating right now! Keep it up.
 

Dr John Carlson

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Longevity

Vezina lead the NHA first in 1910-11. He lead for the last time in 1924-25, his last healthy season. It's incredible longevity. If you take a step back, how many goalies were across a 15 year spectrum? Hasek, Roy, Brodeur, Hall, Plante. Tretiak? Is that it? You have guys with 15 years of good play, but leading GAA 15 years apart is all-time longevity. 1910s and 1920s players typically struggle with longevity with the rapid changes, so I find his longevity doubly impressive.
I would be careful about directly comparing longevities from this era to later eras.

Let's look at his contemporaries who came up in the late 1900s into early 1910s, and how long the gap is between their first and last relevant seasons (being generous with what I'm calling relevant):

Vezina - 1911-1926 (15 years, obviously this number is stunted a bit by his death)
Benedict - 1913-1928 (15 years)
Lehman - 1910-1926 (16 years)
Holmes - 1914-1928 (14 years, I don't think the OHA when he started up was very strong so I won't count that)
Hainsworth - 1916-1936 (20 years!)

15 years is about what we can expect from the best of this generation, with George Hainsworth as an outlier. Now, let's look at those who came up in the 1920s into the early 1930s:

Worters - 1923-1936 (13 years)
Thompson - 1929-1940 (11 years, no clue what to say about his Minneapolis years)
Gardiner - 1930-1934 (4 years, obviously this number is stunted massively by his death)
Kerr - 1931-1941 (10 years, though it seems Dave Kerr left hockey to go into business and was good enough to continue)
Roach - 1921-1933 (12 years)
Connell - 1925-1935 (10 years, though I can't speak at all on the quality of Ottawa amateur hockey of the time, so the number may be somewhat wider)
Chabot - 1924-1935 (11 years)

Across the board, guys didn't last as long. A few theories on why this is the case: the first and most obvious is the lengthening of the season, from ~20-25 NHA/NHL games per year during the top group's career (minus Hainsworth) to ~40-45 games per year for the bottom group (plus Hainsworth). Almost double the games, almost double the toll on the body, and this may explain why Hainsworth, who didn't turn pro until he was 30, could hack it for so long. Another theory would be the lack of forward passing. This seems obvious to me, since goals against averages were insane in the late 20s, and I think I've seen reconstructed save% numbers from this time that had the leaders at like .970, or something crazy like that. The point is, the shots these goalies were facing were not difficult, which meant they weren't strenuous on the body. Hugh Lehman would've spent most of his career in forward passing conditions out West, so he dodged this factor, but he also enjoyed the defensive benefit of an extra skater on the ice clogging things up, forcing more shots from the perimeter.

So yes, Vezina has good longevity, but longevity wasn't as difficult to come by in his day. 15 years for the Chicoutimi Cucumber is not the same as, say, 15 years for Eddie the Eagle.
 

Dr John Carlson

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I love MAF, but if you do a list of "Wretched Goals Given Up In The Playoffs" his is a lot longer than Tommy B's...

I'm not voting. Can I get an invite or how does one participate in these things?

My Best-Carey
As @jigglysquishy said, you may submit a list of your top 80 goalies from across the game's history, with the deadline being this Friday. Doing so qualifies you to submit ballots during every voting round, which will begin after all lists are received. Though, if people need a few extra days beyond the deadline to finish compiling their lists, that won't be an issue, since it will take a bit of time to sort out the aggregate list and screening processes.

But you certainly don't need to submit a list to participate. Simply engaging in discussions is enough, and anybody can do that, regardless of whether they submitted a list or not. The more discussion we can get the better, that's why we're all here after all.
 
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Michael Farkas

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The 60's goalies look like they're going to be a problem for me...not a lot of obvious difference between them. Worsley looks worse than the lot of them...I don't find him to be much better than Hank Bassen even. But maybe I actually need to watch some of the ones that I failed more to get a better sense - but that film is fairly rare. It's gonna get tough here.
 

Michael Farkas

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All right, this is kinda funny given the state of the Leafs for most of the 80's...

The Hockey News - Jan 18 1985 said:
“I was fortunate that Punch and the Leafs took the chance with me. I always admired Punch as a persot.’. He was very tough as a coach.

“He treated our practices like they were a game. That was tough to take sometimes. But I didn’t mind the work. I don’t think anyone else did either when we won the Stanley Cup four times (1961-64 and 1966-67).

“Because of all that hard work, Punch helped to put extra money in our pockets.”

One of Bower’s greatest assets was his ability to pokecheck with his stick.

“I learned how to use my stick from (former Ranger goaltender) Charlie Rayner,” said Bower, who was named a first-team All-Star in 1961. “He showed me how effective a goalie’s stick could be.”

Despite his great athletic ability, Bower finally retired as a player in 1970 at the age of 45. Failing eyesight was a major reason his stepping down.

“My reflexes were still okay at the time, but my eyesight went on me,” said Bower, who is the head of scouting for the Leafs and resides with his family in Toronto “I baffled Punch for a couple of seasons with it.

“But the truth of the matter was that I couldn’t see the puck when it was shot from the blue line. I couldn’t see it sometimes until it was almost on me.
 

Michael Farkas

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Not sure if game logs that are out and about have accurately captured this (assuming it is accurate in the first place, because Montreal lost both games to Detroit to end the 1955 season), but...

Ottawa Journal - Jan 21 1957 said:
Irvin said that at the time of the Montreal riots in the Spring of 1955, he could see that goalie Jacques Plante of Canadiens was upset by everything.

Before the first game of the playoffs against Detroit, Irvin took Plante aside and told him, "You're upset so I'm going to put Charlie Hodge in there every five minutes. Now I don't want you to go out there depressed or sulking. It's best for you and for the team."

Canadiens won that game and Plante told Irvin: "Coach, this is great I feel wonderful." Later in the series Irvin let Plante play the full time. The veteran coach feels sure his shuttle system would work today.

Also, unrelated to this...man, people sure did bring a lot of eggs to games in the 50's and 60's...were eggs free? I guess maybe the cold in the arenas kept them fairly well. I've had an ask break in my pocket before (no need to follow up on this), when they get even a little bit warm, they get very fragile...where were folks keeping them for the length of these games...?
 

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