HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Preliminary Discussion Thread

[Michael Farkas]

I really don't want to bury the "goalies skate out to play the puck because they probably can't stop it" theory or the "Tony Esposito is grossly overrated" treatise...but I also want to get some videos out, as promised...

Games are random, based on video quality, availability, and doing my best to scale across eras while also being cognizant of a scant few similar concepts that already exist. I did strive to avoid a shutout, that's the only "bias" that I tried to avoid (or insert...?)

Dominik Hasek

All saves 1994 Eastern Conf. Quarterfinal Game 6 vs New Jersey (not mine)

Spoiler: Video

All shot attempts against 2002 Western Conf. Quarterfinal Game 6 vs Vancouver

Spoiler: Video

Patrick Roy

All shot attempts against 1986 Stanley Cup Final Game 5 vs Calgary

Spoiler: Video

All saves 1994 Eastern Conf. Quarterfinal Game 5 vs Boston (not mine)

Spoiler: Video

Martin Brodeur

All shot attempts against 1995 Eastern Conf. Final Game 1 vs Philadelphia

Spoiler: Video

All shot attempts against 2000 Stanley Cup Final Game 6 vs Dallas

Spoiler: Video

All shot attempts against 2008 Eastern Conf. Quarterfinal Game 4 vs New York

Spoiler: Video

##

If these are useful or if they could be improved, let me know. They aren't the quickest thing in the world to make, but I started to get quicker at my 4th or 5th one, so if we really want someone else I can take a hack at it probably...but if no one is gonna use them, that's fine, I just won't bother...

 

[BM67]

Boys, I'm so sorry to do this...

I really do not like (I won't say "hate", but maybe...) Tony Esposito.

That brings me to this unfortunateness...

The Art of In Goaltending

I was at the Armory - a prominent (formerly, more prominent) New York City art fair - last weekend. At one of the booths, I took note of a large abstract-inspired piece that was clearly intended to be Vladislav Tretiak. So I spoke to the gallerist there and I told him as much about the subject matter of some of the other goalies that were painted as he told me about the art and the artist.

The artist's name is Rob Ober - a 60's born West German man - who attended games in his youth, apparently. I haven't met him yet, but I apparently have a fairly close connect. I'd link his instagram here, but it contains depictions that I don't think are within the rules of the board, so I'll play it safe and not...I don't get any commission anyway haha

So what the hell am I talking about?

Great question.

Artists are not ranked in order of their stroke or use of color. There are no bonus points for mixed material pieces (in fact, I think quite the opposite, but that's another story).

Certainly technique is a factor. But there's more than just that...there's also timing and innovation.

There's nothing particularly novel about a soup can. But the timing and innovation started a movement.

I look at my "A" list of goaltenders (again, not having looked deeply at the O6 yet)...

Dominik Hasek - unique in his use of vertical angles backed by freakish athleticism and reflexes. He aggressively played the percentages in the highest danger areas like no one dared to before. Innovator.

Martin Brodeur - Mastered the art of stickhandling. Turned rebounds into breakout passes. Had unreal anticipation for the game to the point that he baited shooters into shots he was already ready for. A hybrid style that strayed away from the butterfly in Quebec. Innovator.

Patrick Roy - The aforementioned butterfly, but combined with skating and a competitive fire that took it to another level from Glenn Hall. Innovator, or at least, mastered the innovation and brought it to the forefront (Warhol wasn't the first kitschy pop art guy...he was just the first to really know how to market it and live the lifestyle...Roy may be Warhol).

Jacq.........................wait a minute. Glenn Hall ---> Patrick Roy. Someone very prominent is missing in the butterfly timeline.

Tony Esposito

Why is he missing?

Because he wasn't that good at it. He didn't advent or advance the butterfly...he stole it as part of a patchwork of guessing and poor technique. Maybe I'll lose the art references here in case someone knows who Elaine Sturtevant is...you ever tell a joke from a comedian whose timing and rhythm you can't match? That's Tony Esposito for me. He just took what the last Blackhawks goalie did and tried to mimic it.

He's not the best skater. He's so unbelievably impatient and unpoised. He makes the first move every single time and cannot account for it with his skill. Rebounds are a mess. Second save process is a mess. I don't know if we have the data, but I bet if you did an ELO ranking of shooters, I'd wager that Tony O gets beat by the upper tier more often than any other. The bad players might not have had the skill to figure out how to deal with him kneeling and sliding out at them, but the skilled players had no trouble at all.

Enter: His playoff record. Where you're normally playing better players on the whole. I mean, who loses 18 out of 19 playoff games? He won 12 of his last 46.

Watch the splits...

1970 - He's new on the scene. No one knows what to make of it. Tony Esposito 1969-70 Splits | Hockey-Reference.com

1971 - The O6 teams with talent - Montreal, Boston, New York. They killed him. They're getting two extra goals per game on him, effectively.

1972 - The Hawks generally try to hide him from these teams. Giving Gary Smith Boston four times, Montreal three times, New York twice.

1973 - Doesn't play the full slate, but not a low amount either. He has a good year. Adds a half a goal per game in the playoffs. But it's really more than that, because that number is fluffed by the hapless Blues in the first round.

1974 - Same basic deal. He has a good year. Adds a whole goal in the playoffs. Again, fluffed by playing pre-Triple Crown Los Angeles in the first round. He gets slaughtered by Boston.

1975 and on...I think everyone basically figured it out that could.

Tony Esposito 1974-75 Splits | Hockey-Reference.com

Scoring Stat Splits for Tony Esposito for 1974-75

www.hockey-reference.com

The splits are stark:
sub-2 GAAs against Atlanta Kansas City, California, Washington, Minnesota, etc.

3+ against Boston and Buffalo
4's and 5's (!) against Montreal, Pittsburgh, and New York.

And I know that bad teams are bad and good teams are good. And I looked at other goalies around this time and this effect does exist, but it doesn't appear to be quite as stark of a difference. Plus...the unscionably bad playoff record makes a lot of sense now.

The smartest team had a sense too. They left Esposito exposed in, effectively, a waiver draft in 1969 after giving him a shot in the NHL.

He was a guesser, he had poor anchoring, poor rebound control, he was not in control of the game. And the H-R page on him makes it look like he was elite or near elite for his whole career, but he wasn't...those AS-5 and AS-6's or whatever are just discount rack atta-boys for a player that played 15-20 more games than any other goalie in the league. They're largely irrelevant and way off the lead.

And yes, given the state of things at the time and his penchant for playing the majority of games (meaning, more expansion teams and dumpster fires) his save pct. from 1974 to 1980 is 4th in the NHL. But his pocket-sized backup Mike Veisor's is 7th - and that includes him having to stay in for 12 goals on 36 shots vs. Montreal in 1975. If Esposito got that game, Veisor would be 5th, right next to Espo.

I'm not asking you not to put him on your lists...I'm not saying he won't be on mine....somewhere...lower than you have him certainly. But where ever he was at on the top 40 list last time is way too high. Whatever the number he's ranked at, I'd say double it...

It's unpopular, I'm an idiot, he's in the HOF, he's won Vezinas...I know. I'm aware. Whatever research you do for this, dig a little deeper here...don't give him a free pass. Don't ignore the massive playoff red flag. Don't ignore that Montreal chose Rogie Vachon and 40 year old Gump Worsley over him for their protected slots in the waiver draft or that no one was willing to pony up an asset to trade for him. Or that the very farm team he was with before the NHL chose Phil Myre over him for the playoffs. Or that he switched to represent the United States in order to get playing time in the 1981 Canada Cup. Or that he had to wear a hammock between his legs to cheat his way through bad technique.

He's Phil's little brother that happened to play a lot of games for an iconic franchise that was relevant for a bit with his goofball antics and their Original Six relics.

Game 7 of the Stanley Cup Final - up 2-0 with 25 minutes left. And this is what you come up with?



There's a reason he didn't win.

Reading your reviews of Rinne and Esposito, it sounds like your talking about two guys that should have been run out of the league before they played 800 games between the two of them.

Since they have over 800 wins and left the league due to age and injury, I'd have to think the holes in their games are being a little overblown.

The league had Esposito figured out by 74-75? How then did he beat Boston in the 75 playoffs? The team that went on to lose 18 of their next 19 playoff games probably didn't have anybody's goaltending figured out.

Who loses 18 of 19 playoff games? Chicago scored 1 goal or less in 12 of those 18 loses, and scored 9 of their 23 goals in one 4 game series. Those 18 loses came against Boston, Buffalo, Montreal and the Islanders. That's 4 of the top 5 teams of that time.

Does Esposito deserve to be knocked down a notch or some? Maybe, but don't let it be because he gave up more goals to Montreal and Boston, just like the majority of 70s goalies.

 

[overpass]

And I know that bad teams are bad and good teams are good. And I looked at other goalies around this time and this effect does exist, but it doesn't appear to be quite as stark of a difference. Plus...the unscionably bad playoff record makes a lot of sense now.

Mike, I appreciate the in-depth work and the independent perspective you are bringing here. I agree it's very valuable for 70s goalies to look at the good team/bad team splits. And I think you have something with Esposito. But Bernie Parent also had some pretty huge good team / bad team splits, at least in the regular season. Are you downgrading him as well?

Parent, RS career against Boston: 11-22-5, 3.69 GAA, 0.892 SV%
Parent, RS career against Montreal: 10-33-9, 3.13 GAA, 0.908 SV%

I will say though that Esposito had a pretty crazy playoff split depending on the strength of his opponent. I've gone through his playoff career and binned each opponent into pretenders (usually around 0.500 or below) and contenders.

Playoffs, Esposito vs contenders: 25-50, 3.55 GAA, 0.892 SV%
Playoffs, Esposito vs pretenders: 20-3, 1.57 GAA, 0.945 SV%

Esposito played a disproportionate number of his playoff games against contenders, and also had poor results against them. And he had ridiculously good playoff numbers against the pretenders, in fact he never lost a game in his first round series from 1971-1974.

Contenders: 1970DET, 1970BOS, 1971NYR, 1971MTL, 1972NYR, 1973NYR, 1973MTL, 1974BOS, 1975BOS, 1975BUF, 1976MTL, 1977NYI, 1978BOS, 1979NYI, 1980BUF, 1981CGY, 1982MNS, 1983MNS, 1983EDM

Pretenders: 1971PHI, 1972PIT, 1973STL, 1974LAK, 1980STL, 1982STL, 1982VAN, 1983STL

 

[Michael Farkas]

I don't think they should quite read like that, so that's on me. I think they both benefit from the lack of goaltending talent in their respective primes, which boost their accolades.

With Rinne, I do note that he has the size and the glove to be effective. But there are some pretty glaring weaknesses that in another situation likely would have led to a different result. Not quite to this extent, because he was basically worse in every way - but stylistically, not too dissimilar and with similar flaws - you see how Anders Lindback made it work in Nashville and was basically a fringe NHLer besides that? That's the extreme version. Rinne would have played. But Pekka Rinne as a Buffalo Sabre or Ottawa Senator is like...I don't know...Robin Lehner in terms of accolades probably.

He deserves credit for what he did. A better goalie makes better use of Nashville's situation. A worse goalie is Anders Lindback haha - I mean, I don't know how to communicate it better than that. I wouldn't put a guy that should have been "run out of the league" on my 'C' list or even on my weak interest list. So, that's not what I'm saying. But I think his reputation is better than his goaltending would warrant.

To a greater extent, Tony Esposito is the same way. Tony O had his gimmick and he made it work for a bit and then hung on for a while longer with varying results. The only thing that didn't vary is: when they needed a save in a playoff series, he couldn't be bothered.

As luck would have it, our old goalie expert (?) killion felt the same way...

All-Time Original Six

I rarely post anymore. In fact, I haven't logged on in over a year. After seeing threads talking about all-time national teams, I thought about my old "project" to compile teams from various franchises. To start, I only wanted to focus on original six franchises. Players in plain text are...

forums.hfboards.com

(So did C1958 it seems, about the former Canadien).

I think Jacques Plante (who says this in 1980) sums it up more or less perfectly...

“Esposito, because of his style, leaves a lot of rebounds,” said Plante. “Because of his style he makes the first move, rather than letting the shooter make his. He comes out and then moves backwards and because of that he’s off balance. Because of his crouch, he can’t cover the top of the net.

“There’s no way he can cover when somebody changes his mind or on a deflection. He’s a reflex goalie—how many times have you seen him make that long reach to make a save? If he has to do that, he’s standing in the wrong place.

“Of course, I’m not saying Tony’s not a good goaltender. He’s durable. He’s played well for a long time. But I’m just saying because of his style he’s going to have more bad games.

It was nice to find someone of such stature willing to take a critical look at goaltending and/or a goaltender. I think he nails it (obviously). Watch Esposito in these games - and it's a great point - it's not even an aggressive butterfly usually. It's receding to the goal line. So it's just giving more net. At least with a total mess like Tim Thomas, at least Thomas is charging at you like a banshee (I don't actually know what a banshee is) so there's an element of pressure on the shooter, plus the angle change.

Esposito is not as consistent in that way. Which is good and bad, depending on the situation. But butterfly goalies are typically efficient and consistent and married to their technique. Tony O sort of buffet-styled some of the worst parts of butterfly and threw them onto his plate.

I'm not saying that he shouldn't have played...but it seems pretty clear that when you had to beat him, you could rather easily...like...who was permitted to play this poorly in the playoffs for this long? At some point, it stops being an accident or unlucky.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Are you downgrading him as well?

I might. I'm watching him right now as a matter of fact. Against Chico Resch in the 1975 Semifinal. I hadn't gotten to Parent yet, so we'll see haha

 

[Michael Farkas]

Does Esposito deserve to be knocked down a notch or some? Maybe, but don't let it be because he gave up more goals to Montreal and Boston, just like the majority of 70s goalies.

And here's the other thing too. And I'll pick on this statement...it's very easy to cherry pick anything. I can take any number and manipulate it to say whatever I want. That's not hard, especially with goalie stats.

So, if my whole post is distilled down to "I don't think he's good, because he was bad against Montreal" then that's on the reader.

It starts with the technical, mental, and physical aspects of the goaltender. So, that's where I went first because that's what makes sense to me.

That felt very iffy to me and it generally got worse with each game, as more and more flaws and inconsistencies came to the forefront.

So then, you start to see how these issues present themselves...because like I said, it's not fair for me to come in here and say, "This goalie is bad. Therefore he shouldn't be on the list." That's not enough information.

But what I am saying is that there's a not insignificant line of evidence that should be considered. For me, most of that is in the technicals. That's not necessarily for everyone. Not everyone has to care about that. I do though.

You see that the technicals manifest themselves in a negative way. Dramatic splits. A timeline where he more or less falls off the map against virtually no competition...as the league worsens the further away we get from the O6/sponsorship era. He plays more games than anyone...but there's like 5 teams playing .650 hockey and everyone else stinks. So, if you don't share the games against garbage teams, it's going to be a pump.

And that "pump" dramatically and historically implodes every time he plays in the playoffs for more than a decade. And even in the best runs - as we saw with the Lemaire goal from center - he can't be trusted to make a save. He gave up a 60 footer to Larry Popein in his call up with Montreal too which likely helped the Habs' scouts render a verdict.

Anyway, so you look...Sam Pollock - the best GM of the era, at least - had no interest. Jacques Plante - possibly the best goalie of all time, and evidently a terrific goalie coach of the era - had serious reservations.

So, we have the talent eval, we have some pretty significant breadcrumbs statistically, and we have some really high end guys from the time going, "ehhhhh...not for me."

Look, I'm not asking anyone to go along with this. Put Tony O at 1 for all I care. But I do ask that we don't reduce my argument to "he's bad against Montreal" - I'm trying to really put a lot into this, I think we can do better than to get that out of it.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Not exactly the same timeline, but fairly close...Don Edwards does get consistently killed by Boston. But Montreal sits more towards the middle of the pack...it's not so dramatic here: Don Edwards Career Splits | Hockey-Reference.com

Just eyeballing it, the offenses that could really move it east/west: Boston, Quebec, and later Edmonton slaughtered him. Everyone else was a step below that basically. At that makes some sense, as a smaller goalie that wasn't the best skater, covering the net from post to post would be tough.

 

[jigglysquishy]

I'm loving all the video work. Hope we get a deep video dive into the big 3 O6 goalies and Dryden/Tretiak.

I think the lists will get some more variance now because of it.

 

[Professor What]

So, I watched the clips videos. Hasek never ceases to amaze me with his ability to stop the puck. You could think he was completely out of a play, and then he comes out of nowhere to make a save. I do have to say that I wondered about his decision making when playing the puck a couple of times. Ultimately though, that doesn't ding him too badly. He makes too many stops that others wouldn't, and obviously, that's the name of the game for goalies.

Roy looks steadier than Hasek, but I'm not sure how much that means to be honest. Both of their styles got the job done and got it done very well. After watching a couple of compilations of each of them, I'm reaffirmed in my belief that they have to be 1-2 in some order.

Brodeur didn't look as good at the puck stopping to me (although, consider who he's being compared to, and that's no insult), thought I'd be glad to have him on my ATD team anytime. One thing that stood out to me though was his decision making. He didn't (at least in those three compilations) leave me wondering why he did something he did that put him or his team in a bad spot. It makes me hate that trapezoid even more to watch him play. Why handcuff a guy that's good at playing the puck back there? Let every goalie be aware of his own strengths and weaknesses, and let that guide their decision making. If they screw up, so be it. It's part of the game.

Anyway, I enjoyed the videos, and if you make more, I'll watch them. I know that on the board lately Dryden vs Tretiak has been a big topic, but I'd be interested in seeing a comparison of Tretiak vs Holocek. The reading I've done on Holocek recently made me decide to move him up a few spots on my list, and I'd be very interested to see if the video says the same thing to me. Of course, I don't know how easy or hard it might be to find significant video of him.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Ok, Tretiak, Dryden, and Holecek I'll try to do next...with Dryden, I might just do one game because he basically only plays in one era. I'll try to double up on Tretiak and Holecek if I can. Glad these could be helpful.

Steady is good. Because the opposite of steady is shaky. Shaky is bad.

Do you want your taxi driver or whatever to be steady or all over the place? Now, maybe if it's a scene from a movie and you jump in a cab and go, "just drive!" - ok, maybe you want the driver with more flair. But generally speaking, you want steady with the upside to dial it up to another level in case the road is icy and we get into a skid.

That said, I'm the biggest Brodeur champion on this board...with the exception of the user named "Brodeur" probably...I'll say that these deep dives did push me off the ledge with him a bit. Mostly because of his skating and movement in the crease. It wasn't until I really dug in here did I see that other goalies did it better.

As we often see for skaters, not being the most mobile guy can be compensated for in various ways...you accurately note, Brodeur's hockey sense and anticipation is probably in a class of 3 or 5 all time. It's perhaps the best the game has ever seen.

So if you break it out...on a 3 to 9 scale like many NHL teams use...you go...

Hockey sense is a 9, Skill is 8 or 8.5 probably, Compete is 8, he battles hard and he's constantly engaged in and out of the crease. Skating/movement is maybe 6 or 7. He's a fine skater, but his movement in the crease leaves a little to be desired. His skating grades better than his crease movement, I'd say. And then he has good size, so that's probably an 8 - I don't want goalies that are too tall or too short. And then the floor is very high - I mean, how often have we seen Brodeur just completely tank a game or series? Not very often. And the ceiling is extremely high, as we've seen. He has game stealing potential. For a goalie, he almost has game breaking potential. How many odd-man rushes has he started Brian Gionta with in his career? More than almost anyone ever.

So that looks really, really elite to me. 9-8-8-6.5-8 | 8-8.5

With Roy, you're sort of in the same area in some respects. 8 or 8.5 hockey sense, super competitive, he's right there, the skill is probably more or less a wash...Brodeur's puckhandling vs Roy's not handling. Then maybe Roy has better puck stopping ability in some respects. Rebound control slight nod to Marty. It's all more or less a wash I'd say. I think Roy has him on in-crease movement and efficiency. That's probably more like a 7+ or more for Roy. Roy has the size too.

I'd say that Roy's floor is a little lower than Marty's. I think we've seen him turn in some pretty tough ones over the years. Whether he's overplaying the game or whatever. But then his ceiling is 9, right? Like...that's a guy you want for one game to win it all.

So, you think maybe it's...8-8.5-8-7.5-8.5 | 7-9

On my little composite formula that I use to help rank players, they basically come out with the exact same score...but by a decimal, it's Roy. That feels about right.

 

[overpass]

For the expansion/WHA era, 1967-68 through 1978-79, team strength varies so much that it's difficult to make sense of the available goalie stats.

I divided all playoff teams into contenders and pretenders (roughly around the 0.550 mark), and ran the playoff numbers for goalies in four different situations.

1. Contenders vs contenders - playing on a strong team against a strong team
2. Contenders vs pretenders - playing on a strong team against an average team
3. Pretenders vs contenders - playing on an average team against a strong team
4. Pretenders vs pretenders - playing on an average team against another average team

1. Contenders vs contenders. This is probably the most important category if you're looking for a goalie you can win the Cup with.

Goalie	Team	W	L	SV%	GAA	SA/60
Rogie Vachon	MTL/LAK	4​	2​	0.937​	2.05​	32.7​
Gump Worsley	MTL	13​	2​	0.927​	2.10​	28.7​
Mike Palmateer	TOR	4​	7​	0.917​	2.59​	31.0​
John Davidson	NYR	9​	7​	0.914​	2.46​	28.7​
Bernie Parent	TOR/PHI	21​	19​	0.914​	2.41​	28.1​
Denis DeJordy	CHI	5​	6​	0.911​	3.08​	34.7​
Ken Dryden	MTL	56​	28​	0.909​	2.58​	28.4​
Michel Larocque	MTL	2​	4​	0.909​	2.83​	30.9​
Chico Resch	NYI	9​	15​	0.908​	2.75​	30.0​
Billy Smith	NYI	12​	7​	0.906​	2.94​	31.3​
Gerry Cheevers	BOS	29​	24​	0.905​	2.80​	29.4​
Gilles Villemure	NYR	5​	5​	0.900​	2.94​	29.4​
Tony Esposito	CHI	19​	23​	0.898​	3.33​	32.6​
Roger Crozier	DET/BUF	5​	5​	0.897​	2.94​	28.5​
Ed Giacomin	NYR	28​	32​	0.897​	2.82​	27.4​
Doug Favell	PHI	1​	4​	0.892​	3.51​	32.6​
Eddie Johnston	BOS	3​	6​	0.891​	3.44​	31.4​
Wayne Stephenson	PHI	6​	9​	0.889​	3.03​	27.4​
Gilles Gilbert	BOS	10​	10​	0.889​	3.08​	27.8​
Jacques Plante	STL/TOR/BOS	1​	4​	0.873​	4.03​	31.8​
Don Edwards	BUF	1​	8​	0.866​	3.54​	26.4​
Gerry Desjardins	BUF	5​	9​	0.855​	3.92​	27.0​

So first off, those Montreal teams just after expansion were really dominant defensively. Both Vachon and Worsley had the best stats, indicating there's a team effect.

Mike Palmateer and John Davidson had a strong playoff run or two toward the end of the 70s.

Bernie Parent is right up there. Slightly over 0.500, and the best save percentage of anyone with 20+ games in this situation.

Ken Dryden has very good stats still but he doesn't separate himself statistically like he does if you look at all games.

Tony Esposito, Gerry Cheevers, and Ed Giacomin are all right around the same save percentage. Every single one of Giacomin's playoff games was classed as "contender vs contender", he didn't get any easy ones. Cheevers performed a little better than the other Boston goalies.

Those two Buffalo goalies...ouch,. They really didn't hold up against top teams.

2. Contenders vs pretenders. These are the games you should win.

Goalie	Team	W	L	SV%	GAA	SA/60
Chico Resch	NYI	8​	0	0.957​	1.25​	29.4​
Tony Esposito	CHI	14​	0​	0.956​	1.27​	28.6​
Eddie Johnston	BOS	4​	0​	0.945​	1.75​	31.8​
Doug Favell	PHI	4​	2​	0.943​	1.84​	32.2​
Rogie Vachon	MTL/LAK	7​	2​	0.942​	1.61​	27.8​
Mike Palmateer	TOR	2​	0​	0.936​	1.50​	23.5​
Ken Dryden	MTL	24​	4​	0.933​	1.88​	28.2​
Don Edwards	BUF	4​	1​	0.927​	1.79​	24.7​
Gump Worsley	MTL	4​	0​	0.923​	1.73​	22.5​
Bernie Parent	TOR/PHI	14​	5​	0.911​	2.40​	26.9​
Gilles Gilbert	BOS	7​	4​	0.905​	2.87​	30.3​
Gerry Cheevers	BOS	20​	4​	0.905​	2.30​	24.1​
Wayne Stephenson	PHI	4​	1​	0.904​	2.47​	25.7​
Billy Smith	NYI	4​	4	0.902​	2.74​	27.9​
Gerry Desjardins	BUF	6​	2​	0.902​	2.08​	21.1​
Ed Giacomin	NYR	0​	0​

Chico Resch and Tony Esposito were really incredible in these games.

Bernie Parent and Gerry Cheevers weren't as dominant, but they didn't lose any playoff series.

Overall you can see the SV% and GAA were much better in these easier games than against the contenders.

3. Pretender vs contenders. Who was giving their weaker playoff teams the best chance at a big upset?

Goalie	Team	W	L	SV%	GAA	SA/60
Gary Inness	PIT	3​	4​	0.922​	2.59​	33.3​
Glenn Hall	STL	0​	8​	0.918​	3.00​	36.6​
Bernie Parent	TOR/PHI	1​	3​	0.912​	3.25​	37.0​
Doug Favell	PHI	0​	7​	0.909​	3.43​	37.6​
Cesare Maniago	MNS	4​	6​	0.909​	2.87​	31.4​
Mike Palmateer	TOR	2​	6​	0.904​	3.26​	34.0​
John Davidson	NYR	1​	1​	0.901​	3.46​	35.1​
Gilles Gilbert	BOS	0​	1​	0.900​	4.00​	40.0​
Gord McRae	TOR	2​	5​	0.898​	2.91​	28.5​
Denis Herron	PIT	2​	5​	0.891​	3.43​	31.6​
Jacques Plante	STL/TOR/BOS	0​	3​	0.886​	3.53​	30.9​
Phil Myre	ATF	0​	3​	0.885​	4.20​	36.5​
Tony Esposito	CHI	3​	19​	0.881​	3.91​	32.9​
Wayne Thomas	TOR	3​	6​	0.871​	4.48​	34.8​
Eddie Johnston	BOS	0​	3​	0.871​	4.55​	35.2​
Rogie Vachon	MTL/LAK	4​	13​	0.869​	3.73​	28.5​
Wayne Stephenson	PHI	1​	2​	0.860​	5.25​	37.5​
Jacques Caron	STL	0​	5​	0.852​	4.71​	31.8​
Dan Bouchard	ATF	0​	1​	0.846​	4.00​	26.0​
Gump Worsley	MTL/MNS	0​	1​	0.788​	7.01​	33.1​
Ken Dryden	MTL	0​	0​
Chico Resch	NYI	0​	0​
Billy Smith	NYI	0​	0​
Gerry Cheevers	BOS	0​	0​
Roger Crozier	DET/BUF	0​	0​
Ed Giacomin	NYR	0​	0​
Don Edwards	BUF	0​	0​
		26​	102​	0.889​	3.64​	32.9​

Many of the relevant goalies never played in this type of playoff game.

Glenn Hall didn't manage to win a game off the Habs but he had pretty good stats considering he faced 36 shots/60. Cesare Maniago and Mike Palmateer were pretty good as well.

Tony Esposito and Rogie Vachon are the two relevant goalies who played in a lot of these types of games. Maybe the most important information here is that it was really hard for goalies to get upsets or even post good averaging stats when playing for weaker playoff teams in this era. Although both Esposito and Vachon were still a little below the group average in GAA and SV%.

4. Pretenders vs pretenders. These are listed as NHL playoff games but realistically had no relevance to who was going to win the Stanley Cup. Goalies could post good stats in these "playoff" games.

Goalie	Team	W	L	SV%	GAA	SA/60
Jacques Plante	STL/TOR/BOS	12​	1​	0.954​	1.17​	25.6​
Wayne Thomas	TOR	3​	2​	0.948​	1.80​	34.9​
Rogie Vachon	MTL/LAK	4​	1​	0.938​	1.60​	26.1​
Bernie Parent	TOR/PHI	2​	6​	0.935​	2.25​	34.8​
Jacques Caron	STL	4​	2​	0.932​	2.11​	30.8​
Mike Palmateer	TOR	0​	3​	0.926​	2.33​	31.3​
Les Binkley	PIT	5​	2​	0.924​	2.10​	27.6​
Cesare Maniago	MNS	10​	14	0.919​	2.62​	32.4​
Gump Worsley	MTL/MNS	6​	3​	0.912​	2.93​	33.4​
Glenn Hall	STL	12​	10​	0.908​	2.48​	26.8​
Gary Inness	PIT	2​	0​	0.906​	3.00​	32.0​
Ernie Wakely	STL	2​	4​	0.904​	3.18​	33.1​
Denis Herron	PIT	1​	2​	0.904​	3.70​	38.3​
Phil Myre	ATF	1​	1​	0.891​	2.52​	23.2​
Doug Favell	PHI	1​	2​	0.867​	4.34​	32.7​
Dan Bouchard	ATF	0​	7​	0.860​	3.63​	25.9​
John Davidson	NYR	0​	1​	0.846​	4.06​	26.4​
Eddie Johnston	BOS	0​	1​	0.828​	5.05​	29.3​
Ed Giacomin	NYR	0​	0​
Tony Esposito	CHI	0​	0​
Ken Dryden	MTL	0​	0​

My main takeaway here is that Jacques Plante's very strong late-career playoff numbers were largely due to his utter dominance in low-stakes games between two weaker playoff teams. He struggled in the post-expansion playoffs when playing against contending teams.

Dan Bouchard doesn't look too good either...he was losing, and not because he was playing top teams.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Woah, nice contribution. Out of curiosity, when you set the bar (.550 or so) did you then compile manually from there? Or is there a programmatic element here that would re-render these if we made the bar, say, .600?

Just wondering, I'm not after anything in particular. Good effort.

The film is treating Chico Resch surprisingly well right now. Cool to see him at the top of the "punching down" list haha - I wonder on that same list about Parent...the win-loss is strong, but the averaging stats not so much, I wonder if the pretenders that he played could only score on the power play against a defensive Flyer team and that hurt him.

Pretender vs pretender looks like a bit of cream rising to the top goalie wise...Plante, Vachon, Parent...

Poor Dan Bouchard

Contenders vs Contenders. Even here we see the team effects on goaltenders. The Isles guys have the same stats, the 70's Habs have the same stats (even though Bunny Larocque stinks). the late 60's Habs guys (as you note) are right there together

Mike Palmateer and John Davidson.................I got nothin' there. Did Palmateer have like a 94 save 3OT shutout of the Isles in '78 or something Like, where is that from...?

 

[overpass]

Woah, nice contribution. Out of curiosity, when you set the bar (.550 or so) did you then compile manually from there? Or is there a programmatic element here that fromwould re-render these if we made the bar, say, .600?

Just wondering, I'm not after anything in particular. Good effort.

I manually classified the series but it wouldn't take long to do another pass for 0.600+ vs 0.600+. Maybe in a couple of days.

The film is treating Chico Resch surprisingly well right now. Cool to see him at the top of the "punching down" list haha - I wonder on that same list about Parent...the win-loss is strong, but the averaging stats not so much, I wonder if the pretenders that he played could only score on the power play against a defensive Flyer team and that hurt him.

Exactly right on Parent. He lost 5 games against the 75-76 and 76-77 Leafs and the Flyers allowed 18 ES goals and 22 PP goals combined in those series. That Leaf team wasn't deep but had the stars to score on the PP.

Contenders vs Contenders. Even here we see the team effects on goaltenders. The Isles guys have the same stats, the 70's Habs have the same stats (even though Bunny Larocque stinks). the late 60's Habs guys (as you note) are right there together

Yep. Even this simple division of the playoff data makes it very clear that save percentage was a team stat in the expansion era.

Mike Palmateer and John Davidson.................I got nothin' there. Did Palmateer have like a 94 save 3OT shutout of the Isles in '78 or something Like, where is that from...?

Roger Neilson got some really good defensive results from the Leafs with Palmateer in goal. And John Davidson played for Fred Shero's Rangers that made the 1979 finals.

Both teams/goalies had huge upsets against the Potvin/Trottier/Bossy Islanders with strong defensive game plans.

In 1979, if you asked about the best goalies of the next decade, Davidson and Palmateer might well have been names that came to mind. Both struggled with knee injuries and didn't last.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I went down the road on Davidson a bit actually...he's not bad. There's potential there. I didn't really have to sort it out too much...he only played more than 40 games once in his short career and only has one playoff run. So, that's a bridge too far for this...

Palmateer seems like a complete mess. Absolutely zero interest in him.

 

[VanIslander]

• 11-time 1st or 2nd team all star
• Stanley Cup champion
• 1956 Calder trophy and 1968 Conn Smythe winner on a losing team
• 5 times faced the most shots in each of his 5 Stanley Cup Final runs
• 500+ consecutive games played in a competitive era of only 6 starting jobs

 

[Michael Farkas]

• 11-time 1st or 2nd team all star
• Stanley Cup champion
• Conn Smythe winner on losing team
• 5 times faced the most shots in each of his 5 Stanley Cup Final runs
• 500+ consecutive games played in a competitive era of only 6 starting jobs

Where is he at for you, roughly?

 

[VanIslander]

Where is he at for you, roughly?

Tier two. (Tier one is an exclusive club)
NOT tier three.
The top-100 players of all time include three tiers of goaltender.

(Note: in terms of talent he's tier one)

The real work of this project will be the middle and later rounds.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

I went down the road on Davidson a bit actually...he's not bad. There's potential there. I didn't really have to sort it out too much...he only played more than 40 games once in his short career and only has one playoff run. So, that's a bridge too far for this...

Palmateer seems like a complete mess. Absolutely zero interest in him.

Do you have any St. Louis Davidson? I thought his technique was a lot better before his body fell apart on him.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Do you have any St. Louis Davidson? I thought his technique was a lot better before his body fell apart on him.

I would like to see it, but haven't found it. I asked a contact with the Blues for anything they have from the 1974-75 season and they said they don't have anything either unfortunately...

I asked Pittsburgh (because of that prelim series) and they said they'd look, but I haven't heard back yet...

My understanding is that the Penguins kept a surprising amount of games, so I have some hope...I just followed up.

 

[Sentinel]

I am not going to submit my list because I am not competent enough with early goalies but my personal list is:

1. Dominic Hasek

2. Patrick Roy

3. Vladislav Tretiak

4. Jacques Plante

5. Terry Sawchuk

6. Martin Brodeur

7. Glenn Hall

8. Andrei Vasilevsky

9. Ken Dryden

10. Bernie Parent

 

[Professor What]

I am not going to submit my list because I am not competent enough with early goalies but my personal list is:

1. Dominic Hasek

2. Patrick Roy

3. Vladislav Tretiak

4. Jacques Plante

5. Terry Sawchuk

6. Martin Brodeur

7. Glenn Hall

8. Andrei Vasilevsky

9. Ken Dryden

10. Bernie Parent

I'm curious about Tretiak, Vasilevskiy, and Parent being that high. I certainly have Tretiak top 10, but I don't get the argument for third, honestly. (Anyone who feels this way can answer, btw, not just the quoted poster.) Everything else seems reasonable to me if we're not including early guys.

 

[Dr John Carlson]

I don't know what to make of Hainsworth's time in senior hockey. He doesn't really separate himself from the rest of the pack like I figured he might. I'm through the 1921 season and I haven't seen any signs of him being approached by professional teams with offers to play, which you usually do see with the top amateur players.

Well, whaddaya know... I take a few nights off and suddenly in the fall of 1921 we finally have George 'seriously considering' a $1,600 offer to join the Saskatoon Crescents in the inaugural season of the WCHL. I guess he must've turned it down. But there we go, at 28 years old, Hainsworth is attracting professional interest.

---

I'm going to post a bit of an info dump of various thoughts on goaltending technique that I've randomly stumbled across. No real rhyme or reason to them, just for fun...

'Why are the Canadiens going so well this season?' repeated [Dick] Irvin. 'Well, I'll tell you one of the reasons. Bill Durnan is playing some of the greatest hockey I've ever seen displayed by a goalie since the time of the late Chuck Gardiner. Durnan is a stand up goalie most of the time and that type is hard to beat.'

'When they come from that old school,' he continued, 'they have two strikes on a puck carrier who attempts to beat them. A puck carrier has to make the first move and a goalie like Durnan won't be flustered. He plays every puck and if there is a rebound he's standing on both feet and in a position to take care of it. Other goalies flop to the ice on the first shot and if the puck bounces off their pads they leave themselves wide open for an opposing payer to flip it into the net. Durnan has a great pair of hands too and thinks fast in the pinches.'

If you haven't seen it, this is probably the best footage we have of Bill Durnan - albeit in a practice. Around 6:40 is when Durnan comes in. Note the two catching gloves and the 'C' on his chest.

Wilfie Cude, who should know, says that a goaltender can win about nine games a season for his team on superior netminding alone. That is, his team can be outplayed but will win because he happens to be unbeatable on those particular nights.

...

Wilf thinks the late Chuck Gardiner was the greatest netminder of all time. For the runner-up spot he thinks it's a tie between Frankie Brimsek and Dave Kerr.

'Gardiner didn't have very good clubs in front of them or there would be no question about it,' he declared. 'Brimsek had some great defensive hockey clubs in front of him and Dave Kerr on some fine Ranger teams. Gardiner won at least one Stanley Cup for the Black Hawks all by himself.'

Wilf thinks that what made Gardiner great was that he was a master of all styles and employed them all as the occasion demanded. He was a stand-up goalie on some plays and a diver on others. He allowed few rebounds and was an accurate passer up the blue line.

He thinks highly of Bill Durnan, but it's doubtful if he would bracket him with Gardiner, Brimsek, or Kerr. He was reminded that Phil Watson, a teammate of Dave Kerr on the New York Rangers, rated Durnan a better goaltender than Dave.

'I know,' he said, 'and he could be right. No two people ever see a player in quite the same light... and there's no denying Bill is a fine goaltender and a great fellow along with it. He's the only ambidextrous goalie I've ever seen and that special ability helps him. He's always got the blade of the stick to cover the ice on the open side and his hand free to cover the upper part of the net. There isn't another goaltender in the NHL right now who even comes close to him.'

The last time the Black Hawks were here Paul Thompson said that Mike Karakas had changed his style in the minors and was now a vastly improved netminder. Wilfie was asked if goalies ever changed their styles.

'You can get a kid to change his style but not a seasoned player like Karakas,' said Wilf. 'In the clutch they always revert to the style that's natural to them. I watched Mike when the Hawks played here and I couldn't see any difference in him. He's still the diving type.'

Mike Karakas spent significant time in the minors during the early 40s, in the middle of his career, but Wilf Cude didn't seem to think it did him any good.

'Vezina undoubtedly was great, one of the greatest,' said [Frank] Fredrickson. 'As I remember him, he played a stand-up game, unlike the goalies of today. He had terrific co-ordination, and a long stick.

'I remember that long stick well. He would almost stick-handle you out of the play when he got the puck: he would hold it, tease you, then shove that long club out past you, and you'd be out of the play.

...

Vezina played goal standing up erect like a traffic policeman in Montreal, than whom there are none straighter...

...

'You will find,' [Ken] Reardon said, 'that the higher you get in hockey, the nearer the ice your goal-keeper works. The best in the National League will have that jaw of his right on the ice.

'You wonder why the NHL's goal-averages are so low. Well, in modern hockey, a large percentage of your shots come off screen shots. Unless your goalie has his face down there close to the ice, those are the shots he'll miss.'

So, like everything else, 25 years has revolutionized this phase of hockey...

... and here's the best (only?) footage we have of Georges Vezina, again in a practice, though this appears to be a scrimmage. In French, too. I'm unsure who the goalkeeper is that's doing the Ken Dryden pose in the foreground.

[Terry Sawchuk] saved at least two Stanley Cups for Detroit. He developed his famous crouch two years ago, a supposedly unorthodox way of goaling which now has many imitators. He used to be a stand-up goalie but the change didn't lessen his capacity.

There are many who claim that the old timers excelled present day hockey players. In some respects they did, but they didn't excel them in durability, nor did the old goalers look any better than one like Sawchuk.

In the main, few of them had to cope with headlong hockey attacks, nor did they have to brush off attacks by interfering crease haunting forwards.

Many of them used to goal by guess and by God, to use a phrase general in navigation during the last war. A guess goaler today wouldn't last a dozen games. Why is why a player like Sawchuk commands so much respect. Any opposing forward will tell you he is the hardest man to fool in the league.

Take any footage of Sawchuk's crouching style, for example this game from the 1963 Final, and it looks like there's a much greater difference in technique between Vezina (mid-1920s) and Durnan (mid-1940s) versus Durnan and Sawchuk (mid-1960s).

New York Rangers Saturday announced the signing of Marcel Paille, Quebec Hockey League rookie of the year last season, as a possible replacement for regular goaltender Lorne (Gump) Worsley...

'He has may of the characteristics of Davey Kerr,' [Muzz] Patrick said. 'He's a stand-up goalie, he plays the angles well, he has good reflexes and he's cool.'

How do the goalkeepers themselves explain these high-scoring games? Terry Sawchuk, the Detroit Red Wings' ace, supplied the answer a few days ago. He had been asked who was the best goaler in the NHL today, himself excluded.

'They're all good,' he replied. 'Jacques Plante probably ranks as No. 1. Plante would be just as good or better with another team than Montreal, but it wouldn't necessarily show in his goals-allowed record. He has had a couple of seven and right goal nights. Maybe he isn't getting the help he had in other seasons.

'Harry Lumley, of Boston, is an angle-player, a stand-up goalie who can beat opposing marksmen because he plays the percentages instinctively.

He rates Plante and Lumley highly, but between them they allowed 13 goals in Saturday's game. Yet he would be inclined to blame their teammates rather than suggest that either of them might have a bad night. But down through the years the netminders have been blamed for so many defeats that subconsciously they have organized in their own defence.

Sawchuk has nothing but praise for rival goalers in the league.

'If Gump Worsley weren't with the Rangers they'd really get swamped,' he said. 'He's down on the ice half the time. Few goalies can recover as quickly as he does.'

'Glenn Hall, of Chicago, has about the best left hand I've ever seen. He's a stand-up goalie and not used to going down. There's such a thing as going to the ice too fast. That's where a good coach comes in. Johnny Bower is playing well for Toronto.

Elaborating on his own technique, he admitted that he was once a stand-up goalie.

'Then in 1948 at Indianapolis, I found I was missing screen shots,' he explained. 'I discovered I could see better if I crouched, so I have stuck to it ever since. You get more bounce – more spring – from a crouch. The secret of goaltending is recovering after making a save, getting up fast.

'Flip shots are the hardest to cover. They're tough to judge as to how they're going to bounce. You may move out and then have the puck take a crazy bounce sideways. You really look like a chump. Sometimes you lose the puck against the crowd background in Chicago and Montreal. They're not as well lighted as the other rinks.

'Your blind side is the stick side. A shot along the ice is tough because you can't get your stick on it and have to turn your foot to get to it.'

He was asked if any particular player in the league gave him trouble.

'Jean Beliveau,' he said. 'When he gets in front of the net he blocks off half the rink from your view. Imagine what Hall has to contend with at Chicago when his own defensemen Elmer Vasko is backing up.

'Last year I might have listed Dickie Moore with Beliveau. It's funny the way scoring runs. Last year Moore nicked me for 11 goals. This year he has beaten me only once.'

Sawchuk didn't hesitate to list his pet peeves regarding the tactics of opposing players.

'Watch the opposing forwards in front of the net,' he advised, 'and you'll see the characters who stand in front of you and wave their sticks before your eyes. Others stand behind the net when you're watching the play and bang at your feet with your sticks or whack at your pads.

'Vic Stasiuk is another particular annoyance. There is an old saying never take your eye off the puck. But while you're watching the play, Vic will come dashing from the side right through the crease and crash you. He has cost me several goals. He has been caught at it and penalized too.'

'I guess I wasn't ready when I had my first chance with Chicago,' [Hank Bassen] said recently. 'I had a tendency to drop to the ice to block shots, and I was out of position a lot on rebounds. Eddie Shore worked hard with me at Springfield, concentrating on making a stand-up goalie out of me. Tiny Thompson, the old goalkeeper who was Chicago's scout, gave me much of my early fundamentals.

...

Bassen and Terry Sawchuk were roomies on several road trips and Bassen credits Sawchuk with improving his technique.

'He sharpened me up on going out of the net too far,'' said Bassen, who bounces around in a manner reminiscent of Jacques Plante.

Looks like Tiny Thompson got involved in some early goalie coaching, though not as his official role. Also more skills training from Eddie Shore!

 

[Sentinel]

I'm curious about Tretiak, Vasilevskiy, and Parent being that high. I certainly have Tretiak top 10, but I don't get the argument for third, honestly. (Anyone who feels this way can answer, btw, not just the quoted poster.) Everything else seems reasonable to me if we're not including early guys.

Tretiak was the Soviet Player of the Year five times (over Harlamov, Maltsev, Mihailov, Makarov, and Krutov). This is absolutely exceptional.

3x Best European Player (over all of the above + Czechoslovakian stars)
4x Best WHC goaltender

Btw, people like (unfavorably) to compare him to Holecek. International competition awards:

71 WHC: Best goalkeeper - Holecek, AST - Holecek.
72 OG: Best goalkeeper - Holecek, AST - Holecek.
73 WHC: Best goalkeeper - Holecek, AST - Holecek.
74 WHC: Best goalkeeper - Tretiak, AST - Larsson.
75 WHC: Best goalkeeper - Tretiak, AST - Holecek.

76 OG: Best players not selected but the stats are:
Jiří Holeček (CSSR): 5 games / 9 goals allowed / 129 saves / 0.9348
Vladislav Tretiak (USSR): 4 games / 10 goals allowed / 127 saves / 0.9270

76 WHC: Best goalkeeper - Holecek, AST - Holecek.
76 CC: Best goalkeeper - Vachon
77 WHC: Best goalkeeper - Hogosta, AST - Hogosta.
78 WHC: Best goalkeeper - Holecek, AST - Holecek.
79 WHC: Best goalkeeper - Tretiak, AST - Tretiak.

80 OG: Best players not selected but the stats are:
Jim Craig (USA): 7 games / 15 goals allowed / 163 saves / 2.14 GAA / 0.9157
Vladimir Myshkin (USSR): 5 games / 9 goals allowed / 77 saves / 2.08 GAA / 0.8953
Jiří Králík (CSSR): 5 games / 15 goals allowed / 83 saves / 3.00 GAA / 0.8469
Vladislav Tretiak (USSR): 4 games / 8 goals allowed / 42 saves / 3.00 GAA / 0.8400

81 WHC: Best goalkeeper - Tretiak, AST - Lindmark.
81 CC: Best goalkeeper - Tretiak, AST - Tretiak.
82 WHC: Best goalkeeper - Kralik, AST - Kralik.
83 WHC: Best goalkeeper - Tretiak, AST - Tretiak.

84 OG: Best players not selected but Tretiak (USSR) is miles ahead of everybody else: 6 games / 4 goals allowed / 112 saves / 0.67 GAA / 0.9655

Quite respectable.

 

[nabby12]

Another name I'm considering late in the top-80 list is Hal Winkler, who was a very notable WCHL goaltender of the 1920s, before coming to the NHL. He's best known for recording 15 shutouts for the Bruins in 1927-28.

Enjoy this story I wrote a few years back on Winkler:

It’s been nearly a century since Hal Winkler donned the goalie pads for NHL teams such as the New York Rangers and Boston Bruins in the league’s primitive years.

Hal Winkler was born on Mar 20, 1894, in Gretna, Manitoba. A small town of 500 situated just meters from the US border with North Dakota. His father, Enoch, worked as a translator for the German-speaking Mennonite immigrants who had come over to Manitoba. He was also a farmer, implement dealer, realtor, insurance agent, MLA, and even the mayor of Gretna at one time. The house that Hal was born at (590 Hespeler Avenue) in Gretna is today known as the “Winkler House”, a municipally designated historic site.

Hal moved to Winnipeg with his family when he was about 15. He played junior hockey in Winnipeg for teams such as the Winnipeg Hockey Club, Winnipeg Monarchs and Winnipeg Ypres. He later played senior hockey with the Brandon Hockey Club, Moose Jaw Maple Leafs, and Saskatoon Crescents before joining the pro hockey ranks.

The 5’9” Winkler started his professional hockey career with the Edmonton Eskimos of the Western Canada Hockey League (WCHL) in 1921. He was named to the league’s All-Star Team that first season. Winkler played for the Eskimos in the 1923 Stanley Cup final, where they fell in a best-of-three series to the NHL’s Ottawa Senators in the days where the NHL champion would meet the WCHL champ for the Stanley Cup. Winkler was phenomenal in the Cup finals as it should be noted as he only allowed three goals in the two games. Winkler would then later play for the Calgary Tigers before moving on to the NHL.

A funny story about Winkler’s time in the Western League comes from when Winkler and the Edmonton Eskimos would venture to Regina. In those days, visiting teams were reluctant to play in the Regina Arena. There was a brick wall at the south end of the arena, just a couple of feet behind the goal. At the top of this brick wall, there were three or four rows of seats, usually occupied by very young and exceptionally devoted supporters of the Regina Capitals. These charming children used to spit upon visiting hockey players who made the error of skating behind the goal. Also, the dear children used to drop water bombs on the visiting players.

The favourite target of those kids in the south end gallery of the Regina Arena was Hal Winkler. His visits to Regina were awaited expectantly. You see, Winkler, even as a young goalie, was bald. When Hal appeared in Regina, his bald head gleaming as it reflected the arena’s overhead lights, the kids in the gallery hoot and hollered with joy.

Those charming children in the south end gallery of the Regina Arena inspired Winkler to make a change. On his third visit to Regina of the season, Winkler skated onto the ice wearing a large woollen toque atop his head. After the anthem, Winkler turned and thumbed his nose at the children in the Regina peanut gallery. The kids never gave Winkler any trouble after that.

In 1926, Winkler moved on to the NHL’s expansion New York Rangers, at the advanced age of 32. On Nov 16, 1926, Winkler became the first goalie in NHL history to earn a shutout in his first career game, when the Rangers defeated the Montreal Maroons 1-0. It was also the first-ever game for the New York Rangers franchise.

Winkler was later traded that year to the Boston Bruins for $5,000, a great deal of money back then. With the Bruins, Winkler led the club to the 1927 Stanley Cup finals, where they fell to the Ottawa Senators in four games.

During the following 1927-28 season, Winkler played 44 games for the Bruins, posting a 1.51 goals-against average and a staggering 15 shutouts. Today, Winkler’s 15 shutouts in one season are still good for second all-time, even though the NHL regular season has doubled in games since Winkler’s playing days.
Unfortunately, this big feat was the beginning of the end for Winkler as his age started to show on the ice. The writing was on the wall when the Bruins called up future Hockey Hall of Famer, Tiny Thompson, to tend goal in 1928-29. Winkler was soon dispatched to the minors, where he closed out his career, retiring in 1931.

Winkler’s problem was that he was simply born too soon. He could have had a great NHL career, possibly one worthy of a Hockey Hall of Fame induction, had he not entered the NHL at such an advanced age.

Winkler finished with a 35-26-14 record in 75 NHL games with 21 shutouts. The Boston Bruins won the Stanley Cup in 1928-29 (the year they replaced Winkler with Thompson). And in 1958, when the Stanley Cup was redone to the size it is today, Winkler’s name was added to the Cup as a member of the Bruins, even though he spent the majority of the season in the minors.

When Winkler was through with hockey, he returned to Winnipeg and operated a mink ranch for many years in Charleswood. Hal stayed out of the game once he retired from hockey, as it was reported that he had only been to a Winnipeg arena once in his first fifteen years of retirement.

Hal Winkler passed away at Winnipeg General Hospital on May 30, 1956, at the age of 62.

 

[MXD]

Winkler is on my preliminary list, last quarter.

But it does raise the issue of the proportion of netminders active professionally at the beginning of 25-26.

I mean...
- Vezina
- Benedict
- Worters
- Lehman
- Holmes
- Hainsworth
- Connell
- Ross Roach

That's a lot.

Pushing back to 27-28, you take out Vezina, but add in Gardiner and Lorne Chabot (who is probably not guaranteed to make it but is the very least part of the discussions). Add Thompson (whom I consider generally overrated, but is still a rather obvious Top-80 netminder of all time) to this group if you think "Pro" includes the AHA.