Player Discussion Mitch Marner - On Hiatus

[BrannigansLaw]

Winning is a mind set, accepting anything else is a loser mindset... only winners get it,... not suprised you dont get that. How many team make it to 2nd place only to get no where close the next year, in fact 2nd place means you are more like finish worse the next year....

Florida literally got to 2nd place last year and won it all this year. Great argument lol.

 

[Punch Drunk Loov]

I like how Dubas is releasing a book and teased that he revealed his "greatest mistake" was not dealing with the three ELC contracts prior to Tavares.

Wow what a scoop, enormous overpays that don't even have 8 years of term on all three players was extremely stupid today as it was 6 years ago

 

[Hellcat]

Florida literally got to 2nd place last year and won it all this year. Great argument lol.

Oh?

Winning is a mind set, accepting anything else is a loser mindset... only winners get it,... not surprised you dont get that. How many team make it to 2nd place only to get no where close the next year, in fact 2nd place means you are more like finish worse the next year....

Pay attention, it's like some of you never watch hockey.

Runners up
2014-15 - Tampa Bay - next year lost in Conference Finals
2015-16 - San Jose - next season lost in 1st round
2016-17 - Nashville - next year lost in second round
2017-18 - Vegas - next year lost in second round
2018-19 - Boston - next year lost in second round
2019-20 - Dallas - next year didn't make playoffs
2020-21 - Montreal - next year didn't make playoffs
2021-22 - Tampa Bay - next season lost in 1st round
2022-23 - Florida - next season Won cup

89% of the time the team who came 2nd finished worse the next year... which is what I said ... buh ..bye little fella...LMFAO.

 

[BrannigansLaw]

Oh?



Pay attention, it's like some of you never watch hockey.

Runners up
2014-15 - Tampa Bay - next year lost in Conference Finals
2015-16 - San Jose - next season lost in 1st round
2016-17 - Nashville - next year lost in second round
2017-18 - Vegas - next year lost in second round
2018-19 - Boston - next year lost in second round
2019-20 - Dallas - next year didn't make playoffs
2020-21 - Montreal - next year didn't make playoffs
2021-22 - Tampa Bay - next season lost in 1st round
2022-23 - Florida - next season Won cup

89% of the time the team who came 2nd finished worse the next year... which is what I said ... buh ..bye little fella...LMFAO.

Your whole point to begin with was actually terrible so I really just ignored what you said in your post to be fair.

 

[34]

But there are already some extensions kicking in ...

Willy, Max…

 

[Gabriel426]

Really care how the Leafs do in playoffs and they did worse than the year before and if this trend continues, they will miss the playoffs. Or just lose in Game 7 regulation in the first round instead of OT.

 

[francis246]

Too early to predict but as of today:

Shesterkin
Ullmark
Draisaitl
Rantanen
Marner
Tavares
Hill
Oettinger
Crosby
Boeser
Ehlers
Marchand
Koneckny
Bennett
Verhaeghe
Iafallo
Ekblad
McCabe
Theodore
Provorov
Lindell

That’s not a great UFA class and most of those guys are going to be resigned. So it leaves potentially Ekblad as the big fish who will be 29/30

 

[seanlinden]

We don't know what they were offered. If it was a 3rd and a 4th round pick, then 'principled' would be to say 'no'. If it was Makar and 3 1sts, 'principled' would be to say 'yes'.

I agree he should have been signed for $9.5 - 10, but I'm not surprised, considering the mess Dubas left, that he got more.

Nylander was a 1-year rental left at $7m... the best offer was not "a 3rd & 4th round pick".

The problem is / was, the concept of keeping him as an "own rental", combined with the "flexibility" to let half a season worth of play change your overall assessement of him over the past 4-5 years.

You want to call it a different flavour of "principled" management? sure. They were "too principled" to take a deal that might have hurt them short term... but nowhere near enough "principled" to treat the right to play for the Toronto Maple Leafs as the privilige it should be.

The other "problem" was likely the same for Nylander as it was for Marner... that when you're trying to shop a Nylander or Marner in the offseason, it's extremely unlikely that you're going to get a deal that makes you a better team immediately, and the Leafs seem to prefer stagnating hoping that magically one year things are going to click, versus trying for a "reset".

This year, with Tavares off the books in a year, Matthews/Nylander locked up, Cowan and Minten hopefully breaking in, is a PERFECT year to try a "reset". Accumulate some assets that can be high-value pieces in a year or two, even if the fit isn't perfect, and work from there.

 

[arso40]

Nylander was a 1-year rental left at $7m... the best offer was not "a 3rd & 4th round pick".

The problem is / was, the concept of keeping him as an "own rental", combined with the "flexibility" to let half a season worth of play change your overall assessement of him over the past 4-5 years.

You want to call it a different flavour of "principled" management? sure. They were "too principled" to take a deal that might have hurt them short term... but nowhere near enough "principled" to treat the right to play for the Toronto Maple Leafs as the privilige it should be.

how do you defend marner and bad mouth willie with a straight face the guy got paid over 3 mil less over their rfa contracts and the facts say hes nowhere near worth that price and wants on top of coming off as a real piece of work and very hard to like

 

[notDatsyuk]

Nylander was a 1-year rental left at $7m... the best offer was not "a 3rd & 4th round pick".

The problem is / was, the concept of keeping him as an "own rental", combined with the "flexibility" to let half a season worth of play change your overall assessement of him over the past 4-5 years.

You want to call it a different flavour of "principled" management? sure. They were "too principled" to take a deal that might have hurt them short term... but nowhere near enough "principled" to treat the right to play for the Toronto Maple Leafs as the privilige it should be.

The other "problem" was likely the same for Nylander as it was for Marner... that when you're trying to shop a Nylander or Marner in the offseason, it's extremely unlikely that you're going to get a deal that makes you a better team immediately, and the Leafs seem to prefer stagnating hoping that magically one year things are going to click, versus trying for a "reset".

This year, with Tavares off the books in a year, Matthews/Nylander locked up, Cowan and Minten hopefully breaking in, is a PERFECT year to try a "reset".

How can you have missed the point so completely?

I didn't say that a 3rd and a 4th round pick was the best offer, just as I didn't say Makar and 3 1sts was.

I said 'if', and they were both obviously extreme examples.

Neither one represents a 'different' principle. They are exactly the same - do what's best for the team.

Since, as I said, we don't know what was offered, we have no way to laud or lament his 'principle'.

 

[mikeyz]

Just another of the many excuses for the core they defend. Yeah if we can't win the SC, may as well lose in round #1, not make the playoffs, or lose all 82 games. I wonder how Sens and Habs fans feel about being losers equal to the Oilers.

This is how deflated a certain portion of the fan base has become over the course of the last 8 years and the mental gymnastics coping mechanisms that they have resorted to when it comes to justifying the constant playoff failures with this core. It really is unbelievable. LOL.

 

[seanlinden]

How can you have missed the point so completely?

I didn't say that a 3rd and a 4th round pick was the best offer, just as I didn't say Makar and 3 1sts was.

I said 'if', and they were both obviously extreme examples.

Neither one represents a 'different' principle. They are exactly the same - do what's best for the team.

Since, as I said, we don't know what was offered, we have no way to laud or lament his 'principle'.

The "floppiness" of "do what's best for the team" is exactly the problem.... you're chasing a constantly moving target, and making decisions in a shorsighted vacuum, rather than looking at the bigger picture.

Was signing Nylander for $11.5m better than losing him for nothing? Personally I don't think so, but I can see the arguement otherwise.

Regardless of which way you feel on that isolated question -- the bigger problem is that nobody had the foresight and guts to look at Nylander's impending contract situation, and say to themselves:

- Trading Nylander at the deadline is not going to be realistic -- playoff bound teams don't sell.
- Trading Nylander in August is not going to be realistic. Teams have for the most part made their bed for the year.
- I need to know what Nylander is going to cost me in June or very early July, and make an informed decision as to whether I want that or the package I can get in late June or early July.

I don't recall the rumoured offers for Nylander, but as I guy who was on a $7m 1-year deal with no trade protection, it seems highly likely that the Leafs could have gotten a 1st round pick + a top 6 forward or top 4 defenceman of a similar or younger age to Nylander.

If Nylander's price tag was going to be $11.5m,, I'd much rather have had that package then signing him to that deal. Now, if he had agreed to something that puts him in that $9m range, I think you could have argued the opposite... which is back to the whole principled management thing... make a determination that you need answers, and don't compromise on that. If Nylander isn't prepared to give you an answer you like, operate with decisivness, and don't put hte ball into his court.

 

[seanlinden]

how do you defend marner and bad mouth willie with a straight face the guy got paid over 3 mil less over their rfa contracts and the facts say hes nowhere near worth that price and wants on top of coming off as a real piece of work and very hard to like

I'm not defending Marner. He was grossly overpaid for the vast majority of his contract. It's now the 6th year, of his deal. He's the 12th highest paid player in the league this year... and I think you could reasonably argue that he's a top 15 player in the league. He was 9th highest paid last year, and I think that's a tougher arguement.

When you sign a 22 year old player to a 6-year deal, it should not take until the final year for his "ranking" within the league to be roughly equal to his cap hit ranking.

As for Nylander, all this whining about him being underpaid, is only relative to the completely idiotic contracts given to Matthews & Marner by Kyle Dubas.

Nylander had a 5 1/2 year deal that paid him as if he magically played that entire full year. He got an AAV of $6.9m, from 2018-19 to 23-24.

His best buddy David Pastrnak had a similar 6-year deal, one year AHEAD of Nylander, geting paid $6.6m.

Differences between those 2 deals -- Boston bought 2 UFA years on Pastrnak and the Leafs bought 1 UFA year on Nylander. Cap went up a little bit between the first year of Pasta's deal and Nylander's deal..... oh and of course, David Pasrtnak is, was, and continues to be a much better player -- who was 2 points shy of being at or over a point per game on every year of the contract... and carried Boston offensively to a much greater degree than Nylander carries Toronto.

There are many other comparables in the league around that time -- Nikolaj Ehlers also comes to mind -- that say that Nylander's deal was either bang on for a 6-year, or maybe a few hundred k too high.

He underperformed the deal in the first 3 years, and exceeded it's value in the second 3. That's what's supposed to happen when you sign a 22 year old player to a 6-year deal.

 

[Superstar]

I'm not defending Marner. He was grossly overpaid for the vast majority of his contract. It's now the 6th year, of his deal. He's the 12th highest paid player in the league this year... and I think you could reasonably argue that he's a top 15 player in the league. He was 9th highest paid last year, and I think that's a tougher arguement.

When you sign a 22 year old player to a 6-year deal, it should not take until the final year for his "ranking" within the league to be roughly equal to his cap hit ranking.

As for Nylander, all this whining about him being underpaid, is only relative to the completely idiotic contracts given to Matthews & Marner by Kyle Dubas.

Nylander had a 5 1/2 year deal that paid him as if he magically played that entire full year. He got an AAV of $6.9m, from 2018-19 to 23-24.

His best buddy David Pastrnak had a similar 6-year deal, one year AHEAD of Nylander, geting paid $6.6m.

Differences between those 2 deals -- Boston bought 2 UFA years on Pastrnak and the Leafs bought 1 UFA year on Nylander. Cap went up a little bit between the first year of Pasta's deal and Nylander's deal..... oh and of course, David Pasrtnak is, was, and continues to be a much better player -- who was 2 points shy of being at or over a point per game on every year of the contract... and carried Boston offensively to a much greater degree than Nylander carries Toronto.

There are many other comparables in the league around that time -- Nikolaj Ehlers also comes to mind -- that say that Nylander's deal was either bang on for a 6-year, or maybe a few hundred k too high.

He underperformed the deal in the first 3 years, and exceeded it's value in the second 3. That's what's supposed to happen when you sign a 22 year old player to a 6-year deal.

Leafs can't afford to pay that kind of money for a playoff no-show. Marner could be a top whatever in the regular season, but at this stage of this Leaf team, they need to pay for players who actually show up in the playoffs. Marner with his playoff record and his age, is not in a position to bend the Leafs or any other team over, especially compared to what Reinhart and Guentzel just signed for. Marner will be lucky to get Nylander's deal. These guys are getting old, Marner will be 30 in a few years...he ain't 24 anymore with all that Patrick Kane and Jonathan Toews potential...he is who he is - a regular season star and a playoff blackhole. Paying Marner $12 to $13 million until he's 36 years old is a really ugly deal for any team.

He wants to get paid? Sign him for 4 years at $12.5 million per and let him see if any team will pay him remotely close to $12.5 million for another 4 years when he's 32.

 

[arso40]

I'm not defending Marner. He was grossly overpaid for the vast majority of his contract. It's now the 6th year, of his deal. He's the 12th highest paid player in the league this year... and I think you could reasonably argue that he's a top 15 player in the league. He was 9th highest paid last year, and I think that's a tougher arguement.

When you sign a 22 year old player to a 6-year deal, it should not take until the final year for his "ranking" within the league to be roughly equal to his cap hit ranking.

As for Nylander, all this whining about him being underpaid, is only relative to the completely idiotic contracts given to Matthews & Marner by Kyle Dubas.

Nylander had a 5 1/2 year deal that paid him as if he magically played that entire full year. He got an AAV of $6.9m, from 2018-19 to 23-24.

His best buddy David Pastrnak had a similar 6-year deal, one year AHEAD of Nylander, geting paid $6.6m.

Differences between those 2 deals -- Boston bought 2 UFA years on Pastrnak and the Leafs bought 1 UFA year on Nylander. Cap went up a little bit between the first year of Pasta's deal and Nylander's deal..... oh and of course, David Pasrtnak is, was, and continues to be a much better player -- who was 2 points shy of being at or over a point per game on every year of the contract... and carried Boston offensively to a much greater degree than Nylander carries Toronto.

There are many other comparables in the league around that time -- Nikolaj Ehlers also comes to mind -- that say that Nylander's deal was either bang on for a 6-year, or maybe a few hundred k too high.

He underperformed the deal in the first 3 years, and exceeded it's value in the second 3. That's what's supposed to happen when you sign a 22 year old player to a 6-year deal.

agree with some of your points for sure but overall hes a very good complimentary piece atleast thats what hes shown thus far and id argue the salary hes looking for is a bit too rich for what he brings

 

[Arzak]

I like how Dubas is releasing a book and teased that he revealed his "greatest mistake" was not dealing with the three ELC contracts prior to Tavares.

Wow what a scoop, enormous overpays that don't even have 8 years of term on all three players was extremely stupid today as it was 6 years ago

You can't script it.

We have $11M RFA crying on the bench and Dubas be like, let me tell you a secret...

It will be decades before we see someone on worse RFA contract for the team.

 

[Arzak]

He wants to get paid? Sign him for 4 years at $12.5 million per and let him see if any team will pay him remotely close to $12.5 million for another 4 years when he's 32.

That's Mitch f*cking Marner for you .We will be paying McDavid money for this embarrassment of a hockey player so he can get another four chances to prove he is not worth this kind of money?

That's just reta*ded even by Leafs standards.

 

[leafs in five]

 

[Confucius]

Your whole point to begin with was actually terrible so I really just ignored what you said in your post to be fair.

 

[Hellcat]

I'm not defending Marner. He was grossly overpaid for the vast majority of his contract. It's now the 6th year, of his deal. He's the 12th highest paid player in the league this year... and I think you could reasonably argue that he's a top 15 player in the league. He was 9th highest paid last year, and I think that's a tougher arguement.

When you sign a 22 year old player to a 6-year deal, it should not take until the final year for his "ranking" within the league to be roughly equal to his cap hit ranking.

As for Nylander, all this whining about him being underpaid, is only relative to the completely idiotic contracts given to Matthews & Marner by Kyle Dubas.

Nylander had a 5 1/2 year deal that paid him as if he magically played that entire full year. He got an AAV of $6.9m, from 2018-19 to 23-24.

His best buddy David Pastrnak had a similar 6-year deal, one year AHEAD of Nylander, geting paid $6.6m.

Differences between those 2 deals -- Boston bought 2 UFA years on Pastrnak and the Leafs bought 1 UFA year on Nylander. Cap went up a little bit between the first year of Pasta's deal and Nylander's deal..... oh and of course, David Pasrtnak is, was, and continues to be a much better player -- who was 2 points shy of being at or over a point per game on every year of the contract... and carried Boston offensively to a much greater degree than Nylander carries Toronto.

There are many other comparables in the league around that time -- Nikolaj Ehlers also comes to mind -- that say that Nylander's deal was either bang on for a 6-year, or maybe a few hundred k too high.

He underperformed the deal in the first 3 years, and exceeded it's value in the second 3. That's what's supposed to happen when you sign a 22 year old player to a 6-year deal.

Probably slotted, pay wise appropriately, he's top 10 in scoring since 2016-17, top 5 in game winning assists.

 

[Racer88]

Probably slotted, pay wise appropriately, he's top 10 in scoring since 2016-17, top 5 in game winning assists.

Ya, thank God for Matthews ability to put it in the net

 

[ToneDog]

That’s not a great UFA class and most of those guys are going to be resigned. So it leaves potentially Ekblad as the big fish who will be 29/30

I doubt we'll be in the market for a big fish on D unless they move Rielly or let McCabe walk (I'd walk from McCabe if he wants > $5m). I'd let Marner walk and let the market set his value. Leafs could match any offer if he wants to be a Leaf.

 

[Mess]

Who looks at the current lists of NHL highest paid players and says you know Marner needs a raise as that will make the Leafs more Cup competitive?

 

[leafs in five]

you just did that and said that

 

[ACC1224]

Who looks at the current lists of NHL highest paid players and says you know Marner needs a raise as that will make the Leafs more Cup competitive?

View attachment 895211

Obviously deserves to slot ahead of Nylander but that's certainly not ideal.