Player Discussion Mitch Marner - On Hiatus

[Captain Crunch]

Well, you brought up the games 1-4 vs games 5-7 like it is this important point and it trumps overall points or play, so I just want to know your opinion.

Is Tavares better than Mattews because he performs better in games 5-7?

It's pretty simple, you brought it up to show how bad Marner was, so this would imply that the same rules apply to others.

It seems like the games 5-7 reference happens very quickly with Marner, but the argument gets quiet or deflected when other examples are brought up, no clue why.

*Playoff scoring stats from 2020 (games 3-5 vs Columbus)
2021 (games 5-7 vs Montreal)
2022 (games 5-7 vs Tampa)
2023 (games 5-6 vs Tampa and game 5 vs Florida)
2024 (games 5-7 vs Boston)
Matthews - 5 goals, 7 assists
Marner - 0 goals, 8 assists
Nylander - 8 goals 7 assists
Tavares - 5 goals, 6 assists

Mind telling me how and where you came up with your stats? Technically Matthews has performed better than Tavares, while Marner is at the bottom. Lol

 

[Nineteen67]

Well, you brought up the games 1-4 vs games 5-7 like it is this important point and it trumps overall points or play, so I just want to know your opinion.

Is Tavares better than Mattews because he performs better in games 5-7?

It's pretty simple, you brought it up to show how bad Marner was, so this would imply that the same rules apply to others.

It seems like the games 5-7 reference happens very quickly with Marner, but the argument gets quiet or deflected when other examples are brought up, no clue why.

Overall Tavares has been better than Matthews in the playoffs. That’s not saying Tavares has been really good, but comparatively.

 

[Nineteen67]

Obviously deserves to slot ahead of Nylander but that's certainly not ideal.

He and Panarin have both been edged out in the playoffs so that should be his target. Marner will argue he’s never been on a contending team so his stats deflated, which is true, and someone will pay him.

 

[Mess]

The Leafs keep getting weaker and weaker in their top 6 the more they pay their stars.

1st Line - 2021-22 ... Hyman ($3,5 Ml) --- Matthews ($11.34 M) --- Marner ($10.9 M)
1st line - 2022-23 ... Bunting ($1.25M) --- Matthews -------------- Marner
1st line - 2023-24 ... Bertuzzi ($5.5M) ---- Matthews --------------- Marner
1st line - 2024-25 ... XXXXX ------------- Matthews ($13,25 M) -- Marner ........................ ( Leafs priced and cap maxed themselves out of a top line LW)
then even worse

1st line - 2025-26 ... XXXXX ------------- Matthews ($13.25M) --- Marner ($12 M)

Rest of current team presently

Knies ------ Tavares --- Nylander
Jarnkrok --- Domi ---- Robertson
Reaves ----- Kampf --- Dewar
Homberg

What the Leafs should be doing is trying to turn Marner into 2 useful/impact forwards ie Marner to Utah

Marner @ $12 M

for Keller ($7.15 M X 4 years remaining) & Crouse ($4.3 M X 3 years remaining) = $11.45 mil combined.

Totals 56 goals 118 points for similar cap usage.

 

[notbias]

*Playoff scoring stats from 2020 (games 3-5 vs Columbus)
2021 (games 5-7 vs Montreal)
2022 (games 5-7 vs Tampa)
2023 (games 5-6 vs Tampa and game 5 vs Florida)
2024 (games 5-7 vs Boston)
Matthews - 5 goals, 7 assists
Marner - 0 goals, 8 assists
Nylander - 8 goals 7 assists
Tavares - 5 goals, 6 assists

Mind telling me how and where you came up with your stats? Technically Matthews has performed better than Tavares, while Marner is at the bottom. Lol

I see you used games 3 and 4 in the Columbus series, that is not allowed, those are not games 5-7.

That's how by the way, but only including games 5-7.

Not a hard concept.

Overall Tavares has been better than Matthews in the playoffs. That’s not saying Tavares has been really good, but comparatively.

What? Matthews has been our best player in almost every series... are you being serious?

The Leafs keep getting weaker and weaker in their top 6 the more they pay their stars.

1st Line - 2021-22 ... Hyman ($3,5 Ml) --- Matthews ($11.34 M) --- Marner ($10.9 M)
1st line - 2022-23 ... Bunting ($1.25M) --- Matthews -------------- Marner
1st line - 2023-24 ... Bertuzzi ($5.5M) ---- Matthews --------------- Marner
1st line - 2024-25 ... XXXXX ------------- Matthews ($13,25 M) -- Marner ........................ ( Leafs priced and cap maxed themselves out of a top line LW)
then even worse

1st line - 2025-26 ... XXXXX ------------- Matthews ($13.25M) --- Marner ($12 M)

Rest of current team presently

Knies ------ Tavares --- Nylander
Jarnkrok --- Domi ---- Robertson
Reaves ----- Kampf --- Dewar
Homberg

What the Leafs should be doing is trying to turn Marner into 2 useful/impact forwards ie Marner to Utah

Marner @ $12 M

View attachment 895226

for Keller ($7.15 M X 4 years remaining) & Crouse ($4.3 M X 3 years remaining) = $11.45 mil combined.

View attachment 895225

Totals 56 goals 118 points for similar cap usage.

Why would you want two players who can't even make the playoffs?

Hockey is not a team game judging by this thread.

 

[notDatsyuk]

The "floppiness" of "do what's best for the team" is exactly the problem.... you're chasing a constantly moving target, and making decisions in a shorsighted vacuum, rather than looking at the bigger picture.

Was signing Nylander for $11.5m better than losing him for nothing? Personally I don't think so, but I can see the arguement otherwise.

Regardless of which way you feel on that isolated question -- the bigger problem is that nobody had the foresight and guts to look at Nylander's impending contract situation, and say to themselves:

- Trading Nylander at the deadline is not going to be realistic -- playoff bound teams don't sell.
- Trading Nylander in August is not going to be realistic. Teams have for the most part made their bed for the year.
- I need to know what Nylander is going to cost me in June or very early July, and make an informed decision as to whether I want that or the package I can get in late June or early July.

I don't recall the rumoured offers for Nylander, but as I guy who was on a $7m 1-year deal with no trade protection, it seems highly likely that the Leafs could have gotten a 1st round pick + a top 6 forward or top 4 defenceman of a similar or younger age to Nylander.

If Nylander's price tag was going to be $11.5m,, I'd much rather have had that package then signing him to that deal. Now, if he had agreed to something that puts him in that $9m range, I think you could have argued the opposite... which is back to the whole principled management thing... make a determination that you need answers, and don't compromise on that. If Nylander isn't prepared to give you an answer you like, operate with decisivness, and don't put hte ball into his court.

Do you know what was offered? Do you know when it was offered?

If you do, please tell us. If not, you are complaining about something you know nothing about.

You're assuming he didn't make an informed decision because you don't have the information.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Probably slotted, pay wise appropriately, he's top 10 in scoring since 2016-17, top 5 in game winning assists.

So he's played with the best goal scorer over that period. Big surprise he gets assists.

Over the same period, playing on the second line with Tavares, Nylander is 17th in the league in game winning goals.

 

[ToneDog]

The Leafs keep getting weaker and weaker in their top 6 the more they pay their stars.

1st Line - 2021-22 ... Hyman ($3,5 Ml) --- Matthews ($11.34 M) --- Marner ($10.9 M)
1st line - 2022-23 ... Bunting ($1.25M) --- Matthews -------------- Marner
1st line - 2023-24 ... Bertuzzi ($5.5M) ---- Matthews --------------- Marner
1st line - 2024-25 ... XXXXX ------------- Matthews ($13,25 M) -- Marner ........................ ( Leafs priced and cap maxed themselves out of a top line LW)
then even worse

1st line - 2025-26 ... XXXXX ------------- Matthews ($13.25M) --- Marner ($12 M)

Rest of current team presently

Knies ------ Tavares --- Nylander
Jarnkrok --- Domi ---- Robertson
Reaves ----- Kampf --- Dewar
Homberg

What the Leafs should be doing is trying to turn Marner into 2 useful/impact forwards ie Marner to Utah

Marner @ $12 M

View attachment 895226

for Keller ($7.15 M X 4 years remaining) & Crouse ($4.3 M X 3 years remaining) = $11.45 mil combined.

View attachment 895225

Totals 56 goals 118 points for similar cap usage.

Have we ever had a worse group of LWers (Knies, McMann, Domi, Robertson, Dewar) in the last 8 years? Better hope Knies and McMann make huge strides cause that LW sucks.

 

[Captain Crunch]

I see you used games 3 and 4 in the Columbus series, that is not allowed, those are not games 5-7.

That's how by the way, but only including games 5-7.

Not a hard concept.



What? Matthews has been our best player in almost every series... are you being serious?



Why would you want two players who can't even make the playoffs?

Hockey is not a team game judging by this thread.

Actually I used games 3-5 in the Columbus series which, by the way, were the last three games in that series as it was not a 7 game series.

It seems to be for you.

But you did not answer my question about how you came up with what you said about Tavares compared to Matthews. Why is that?

 

[bodechek]

The Leafs keep getting weaker and weaker in their top 6 the more they pay their stars.

1st Line - 2021-22 ... Hyman ($3,5 Ml) --- Matthews ($11.34 M) --- Marner ($10.9 M)
1st line - 2022-23 ... Bunting ($1.25M) --- Matthews -------------- Marner
1st line - 2023-24 ... Bertuzzi ($5.5M) ---- Matthews --------------- Marner
1st line - 2024-25 ... XXXXX ------------- Matthews ($13,25 M) -- Marner ........................ ( Leafs priced and cap maxed themselves out of a top line LW)
then even worse

1st line - 2025-26 ... XXXXX ------------- Matthews ($13.25M) --- Marner ($12 M)

Rest of current team presently

Knies ------ Tavares --- Nylander
Jarnkrok --- Domi ---- Robertson
Reaves ----- Kampf --- Dewar
Homberg

What the Leafs should be doing is trying to turn Marner into 2 useful/impact forwards ie Marner to Utah

Marner @ $12 M

View attachment 895226

for Keller ($7.15 M X 4 years remaining) & Crouse ($4.3 M X 3 years remaining) = $11.45 mil combined.

View attachment 895225

Totals 56 goals 118 points for similar cap usage.

I agree, the problem is the No Movement Clause. Whether it was entirely Dubas' doing or if Shanny had anything to do with it, that is the main sticking point. And for the organization to push the issue is not going to look good to the entire NHLPA. As much as I want to see Marner and that money gone, you don't want to build a bad rep where players don't want to play for your team. The Leafs can throw money around, however, they force the issue, what would a good free agent want to sign if that happens? All they will think is when will they be pushed out.

 

[Nineteen67]

I see you used games 3 and 4 in the Columbus series, that is not allowed, those are not games 5-7.

That's how by the way, but only including games 5-7.

Not a hard concept.



What? Matthews has been our best player in almost every series... are you being serious?



Why would you want two players who can't even make the playoffs?

Hockey is not a team game judging by this thread.

Auston Matthews, right? Two semi dominant games in the past five yrs and one of those was in the play in series against PLD.

 

[Fogelhund]

Matthews has been far better defensively than Tavares the last five years in the playoffs... +7 vs. -4... of course there is far more to this than +-... but we all know that Matthews is better defensively

 

[ToneDog]

Auston Matthews, right? Two semi dominant games in the past five yrs and one of those was in the play in series against PLD.

I counted 3. Game 4 vs Columbus, game 6 vs Tampa, game 2 vs Boston.

 

[Sypher04]

The Leafs keep getting weaker and weaker in their top 6 the more they pay their stars.

1st Line - 2021-22 ... Hyman ($3,5 Ml) --- Matthews ($11.34 M) --- Marner ($10.9 M)
1st line - 2022-23 ... Bunting ($1.25M) --- Matthews -------------- Marner
1st line - 2023-24 ... Bertuzzi ($5.5M) ---- Matthews --------------- Marner
1st line - 2024-25 ... XXXXX ------------- Matthews ($13,25 M) -- Marner ........................ ( Leafs priced and cap maxed themselves out of a top line LW)
then even worse

1st line - 2025-26 ... XXXXX ------------- Matthews ($13.25M) --- Marner ($12 M)

Rest of current team presently

Knies ------ Tavares --- Nylander
Jarnkrok --- Domi ---- Robertson
Reaves ----- Kampf --- Dewar
Homberg

Matthews, Marner, Tavares & Nylander have been there all through so even if we ignore them, which is somewhat ridiculous given how much they have improved as players, you’d be left with:

Hyman + one of (Mikheyev/engvall/thornton/spezza/galchenyuk)

Became…
Bunting + one of (Ritchie/engvall/kerfoot/kase/Mikheyev)

Became…
Bertuzzi, domi/knies

And finally this year…
Domi, Knies

Really no meaningful difference. If anything we may actually be better in the top 6 today than when Hyman was here. And if we’re counting improvement of our stars it’s not really close.

What the Leafs should be doing is trying to turn Marner into 2 useful/impact forwards ie Marner to Utah

Marner @ $12 M

View attachment 895226

for Keller ($7.15 M X 4 years remaining) & Crouse ($4.3 M X 3 years remaining) = $11.45 mil combined.

View attachment 895225

Totals 56 goals 118 points for similar cap usage.

Why would Utah even consider that? I like Marner but contracts factored it’s not good value for them.

Also hasn’t everyone been telling me all summer that Marner is crap?

 

[ACC1224]

Matthews, Marner, Tavares & Nylander have been there all through so even if we ignore them, which is somewhat ridiculous given how much they have improved as players, you’d be left with:

Hyman + one of (Mikheyev/engvall/thornton/spezza/galchenyuk)

Became…
Bunting + one of (Ritchie/engvall/kerfoot/kase/Mikheyev)

Became…
Bertuzzi, domi/knies

And finally this year…
Domi, Knies

Really no meaningful difference. If anything we are better in the top 6 today than when Hyman was here.



Why would Utah even consider that? I like Marner but contracts factored it’s not good value for them.

Also hasn’t everyone been telling me all summer that Marner is crap?

Yes, it's been 'proven' that because he hasn't been traded yet that no one wants him.

 

[ruaware41]

No one can. Every few months he posts a comment like that.

The thing is he's not even wrong lol it's just funny with that user title

 

[Tak7]

The Leafs keep getting weaker and weaker in their top 6 the more they pay their stars.

The issue is further compounded by the fact that they really don't have a steady stream of cost-controlled NHL prospects coming up to help contribute.

Everyone is talking about Cowan, but that feels like a huge jump up for someone so young right now.

They're basically in a fight to keep their head above water over the next season or two, which is quite an incredible position to be for this team.

 

[Nineteen67]

I counted 3. Game 4 vs Columbus, game 6 vs Tampa, game 2 vs Boston

I was thinking he had one good game against Tampa.

 

[Mess]

The issue is further compounded by the fact that they really don't have a steady stream of cost-controlled NHL prospects coming up to help contribute.

Everyone is talking about Cowan, but that feels like a huge jump up for someone so young right now.

They're basically in a fight to keep their head above water over the next season or two, which is quite an incredible position to be for this team.

Young players in Toronto, such as Matthew Knies, Fraser Minten, Easton Cowan, and even Ben Danford will have experienced a lot of development over the next few seasons and could be key contributors.

Right now the Leafs are buried under the bloated overpaid contracts of Tavares and Marner but as early as next season these problems could be out of the way.

 

[Confucius]

No one thinks it’s easy to fix. We don’t know what they’ve tried, what conversations they’ve had, etc., but as of now they’re going run it back and hope that the new coaches can convince this high priced core to put in a playoff level effort.

When the team was struggling throughout the season they didn’t think Berube was the answer, but now they do? He was available, Keefe was on the exact same course as previous years and they didnt make the change. What were they thinking then?

If it fails again….what then?

Well if it fails again, I guess they can let 2 of the coe 4 walk. Problem solved. I'd expect we win then afterall they were the problem, correct?

 

[Racer88]

Well if it fails again, I guess they can let 2 of the coe 4 walk. Problem solved. I'd expect we win then afterall they were the problem, correct?

The fact that we have 4 of them making that kind of money is the problem. It just kills the rest of the team. Add in 5 years of Dubas crappy supporting players and 1 year of Treliving crappy supporting players and it looks like they are going to run it back again this year with the latest crop of crappy support players…….good times ahead

 

[Confucius]

The fact that we have 4 of them making that kind of money is the problem. It just kills the rest of the team. Add in 5 years of Dubas crappy supporting players and 1 year of Treliving crappy supporting players and it looks like they are going to run it back again this year with the latest crop of crappy support players…….good times ahead

Fine, so when 2 of them are gone, the team has an extra 22 million. Pick up their replacements, Stanley Cup we are there.

 

[DraftSchmaft]

The fact that we have 4 of them making that kind of money is the problem. It just kills the rest of the team. Add in 5 years of Dubas crappy supporting players and 1 year of Treliving crappy supporting players and it looks like they are going to run it back again this year with the latest crop of crappy support players…….good times ahead

Domi and Bertuzzi were solid over night depth fixes (attempts). Only cost us cap space.

But true, this place thinks cap space is worth more than the marners and nylanders of the league so I get why people are upset their precious cap space got snatched from them.

Upper Deck needs to make a Cap Space player card for you guys.

 

[Superstar]

Domi and Bertuzzi were solid over night depth fixes. Only cost us cap space.

But true, this place thinks cap space is worth more than the marners and nylanders of the league so I get why people are upset their precious cap space got snatched from them.

Upper Deck needs to make a Cap Space player card for you guys.

Top 4 ultra rare tinfoil-hat cards for the core 4...tin and plastic shielding and all for added protection from all things...collector pieces, could exchange for Leaf jerseys...

 

[Fogelhund]

The fact that we have 4 of them making that kind of money is the problem. It just kills the rest of the team. Add in 5 years of Dubas crappy supporting players and 1 year of Treliving crappy supporting players and it looks like they are going to run it back again this year with the latest crop of crappy support players…….good times ahead

That's where people get confused. It isn't that four of them making that kind of money is the problem. The problem is that they don't perform to that level when it counts the most. If they performed to their contracts, and scored at their regular season rates in the post season... they'd go much further. If the PP, which is near tops in the league over the past few regular seasons, performed in the playoffs... well, no problem.

They've gone to game seven time and again... and the difference really has been that our top guys didn't perform. Honestly, we've changed the supporting cast, and it's probably been a good enough supporting cast, if our top four, are performing as some of the best players in the league, in the playoffs... but that hasn't happened. Paying each of these guys slightly less, doesn't change that they haven't found a way to perform when it counts... having one better support player won't make any difference.

Until Matthews, Marner and Nylander find a way to put this team on their backs, and will them to series victories, the rest doesn't matter. If they can't do that, then it's time to start again.