Ron Francis Or Anze Kopitar?

[wetcoast]

He’s better than about half those guys.

Really which ones?

 

[Felidae]

People are overestimating the effect Jagr and Lemieux had on Francis's production. The way people are talking here you'd think he never would have touched top 10 in scoring without them

Yet Francis finished 9th in scoring as a 38 year and 17th in scoring as a 36 year old playing for the hurricanes.

Regardless of how weak those years was, that's pretty impressive, and what he did in those 2 seasons is more impressive offensively than anything Kopitar has done past the age of 30.
Kopitar's finishes from ages 31-36 are 26, 31, 46, 50

And that's not even getting into what Francis did at ages 30-34, but since how much he was boosted in Pittsburgh is a hot topic, won't get into that more..

lets also not pretend like Kopitar didn't play in his fair share of weak years either, yet only has 1 top 10 scoring finish to his name. (The early 2010s was still very much his prime too)

Though I have no issues with taking Kopitar>Francis overall, I don't see any defense for Kopitar>Francis offensively

 

[Albatros]

Given that his scoring depended heavily on PP and assists, of course the unit he was in mattered a great deal.

 

[norrisnick]

People are overestimating the effect Jagr and Lemieux had on Francis's production. The way people are talking here you'd think he never would have touched top 10 in scoring without them

Yet Francis finished 9th in scoring as a 38 year and 17th in scoring as a 36 year old playing for the hurricanes.

Regardless of how weak those years was, that's pretty impressive, and what he did in those 2 seasons is more impressive offensively than anything Kopitar has done past the age of 30.
Kopitar's finishes from ages 31-36 are 26, 31, 46, 50

And that's not even getting into what Francis did at ages 30-34, but since how much he was boosted in Pittsburgh is a hot topic, won't get into that more..

lets also not pretend like Kopitar didn't play in his fair share of weak years either, yet only has 1 top 10 scoring finish to his name. (The early 2010s was still very much his prime too)

Though I have no issues with taking Kopitar>Francis overall, I don't see any defense for Kopitar>Francis offensively

Kopitar led the Kings in scoring 15 times out of his 18 seasons. He has never had help, let alone someone significantly better than him offensively to play with.

 

[Felidae]

Kopitar led the Kings in scoring 15 times out of his 18 seasons. He has never had help, let alone someone significantly better than him offensively to play with.

That's just as much an indictment on the Kings general lack of scoring ability and elite offensive talent as it is Kopitar carrying the offensive load.

That also doesn't mean Kopitar>Francis offensively.

Kopitar also wouldn't lead his team in scoring if he played with jagr and lemieux...

 

[I Hate Blake Coleman]

Ronnie Franchise

 

[Trash Panda]

That's just as much an indictment on the Kings general lack of scoring ability and elite offensive talent as it is Kopitar carrying the offensive load.

That also doesn't mean Kopitar>Francis offensively.

Kopitar also wouldn't lead his team in scoring if he played with jagr and lemieux...

The argument isn’t that Kopitar would lead his team in scoring along Jags and Mario, the argument is that his numbers undoubtedly would be inflated.

 

[Mike C]

Kopitar easily. Not that Francis wasn't good and his longevity is impressive, but anyhow mostly a supplementary player that often wasn't a top 3 forward in his team, whereas Anže has been doing the heavy lifting successfully throughout his career.

Francis is 2nd all time in assists. I'd contend he's beyond good and above supplemtary

 

[Albatros]

Francis is 2nd all time in assists. I'd contend he's beyond good and above supplemtary

In goals and assists like a slightly worse Bernie Federko with a much longer career.

 

[tarheelhockey]

mostly a supplementary player

Words I’ve never seen applied to Ron Francis, that’s for damn sure.

 

[tarheelhockey]

He was the third best center of his generation.

Can't say that about Francis, who is probably closer to 10th than 3rd.

Kopitar was born in 1987. Centers born 1982-1992:

Jason Spezza
Mikko Koivu
Joe Pavelski
Eric Staal
Patrice Bergeron
Ryan Getzlaf
Evgeni Malkin
Sidney Crosby
Nicklas Backstrom
Claude Giroux
Steven Stamkos
John Tavares


Francis was born in 1963. Centers born 1958-1968:

Wayne Gretzky
Mark Messier
Denis Savard
Adam Oates
Doug Gilmour
Dale Hawerchuk
Dave Andreychuk
Steve Yzerman
Mario Lemieux
Pat LaFontaine
Joe Nieuwendyk
Mark Recchi


Now, call me crazy, but those don’t seem like equal levels of competition for top-3 status

 

[Albatros]

You don't even mention Toews, but he has a better trophy cabinet than Francis.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

That's just as much an indictment on the Kings general lack of scoring ability and elite offensive talent as it is Kopitar carrying the offensive load.

That also doesn't mean Kopitar>Francis offensively.

Kopitar also wouldn't lead his team in scoring if he played with jagr and lemieux...

The argument isn’t that Kopitar would lead his team in scoring along Jags and Mario, the argument is that his numbers undoubtedly would be inflated.

This, plus the fact that despite the heavy lifting/matchups he still regularly led the kings in scoring by 15-20 points. It's not like he was barely getting by, he was doing everything.

 

[Felidae]

The argument isn’t that Kopitar would lead his team in scoring along Jags and Mario, the argument is that his numbers undoubtedly would be inflated.

Sure, I get that.

But inflated to the point it makes up for what Francis actually accomplished offensively? That's pure conjecture, and so is what Francis would have done without Jagr and Lemieux.

But as stated in my previous post, we at least know Francis was capable of finishing top 10 in points in his late 30s without either.

 

[wetcoast]

That's just as much an indictment on the Kings general lack of scoring ability and elite offensive talent as it is Kopitar carrying the offensive load.

That also doesn't mean Kopitar>Francis offensively.

Kopitar also wouldn't lead his team in scoring if he played with jagr and lemieux...

That's great but 6 of the top 8 scoring seasons for franics using adjusted stats are when he was with the Pens in a supporting offensive role at ages 32,31,34,33 (his top 4 seasons) then 30 and 29.

And it's not like Francis was some late bloomer or anything here, his offense is obviously bumped quite a bit with his Pittsburg and playing with the emerging Jagr peak/prime years.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

And that's always the question isn't it

What could Kopitar have been offensively if much of his career wasn't spent parading guys like Kyle Calder, Alex Iafallo, a one foot in the grave Ryan Smyth thru his line. most of his linemates have been 40-50 point players...even era-adjusted they're 'average' top sixers for the most part.

Most of Kopitar's career was stapled to Dustin Brown except for a handful of years of a late career Justin Williams. That line ended up more than the sum of its parts, but don't forget even Kopitar's 92 points season found him scoring 31 more points than his next closest teammate which was his friggin inseparable linemate

I think there's no question Ronnie Franchise was a superior pure playmaker and that worked insanely well with the excellent offensive players he was with--I don't think Kopitar does the exact same thing by any means. Then again, like Jagr, he's a phenomenal puck protection player so that line would have been a nightmare...I just think the question is how much closer does Kopitar make it and I think that's a very, very fair one.

Im saying this with reverence to Francis but I think Kopitar is getting woefully underrated offensively here with respect to Francis' stats compiling.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Kopitar easily. Not that Francis wasn't good and his longevity is impressive, but anyhow mostly a supplementary player that often wasn't a top 3 forward in his team, whereas Anže has been doing the heavy lifting successfully throughout his career.

Ron Francis drove the bus on Hartford and Carolina. On Pittsburgh he just happened to be behind a guy who's in the conversation for 5OAT and Mario Actual Lemieux.

Meanwhile, Kevin Stevens in LA and New York...

 

[Albatros]

Ron Francis drove the bus on Hartford and Carolina. On Pittsburgh he just happened to be behind a guy who's in the conversation for 5OAT and Mario Actual Lemieux.

Meanwhile, Kevin Stevens in LA and New York...

Even in Carolina that's generous, Kapanen-Primeau-Sheppard was the top line when he got there. Maybe in 2001-02 Francis was their MVP, but that's one year and it was the power play that he ran with success whereas Brind'Amour was the more productive centerman on even strength.

Stevens was battling with severe drug addiction later in his career, but that development only began after his 1993 injury. A low blow to take against him really.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Yeah I don't think it is fair to compare post Pittsburgh Stevens to post Pittsburgh Francis. Stevens was never remotely the same after the horrific 93 injury and his demons took hold.

At the same time, I don't think it is fair of people to say Francis was not capable of being a true #1 and that he was a product of Lemieux/Jagr.

• He was a 100 point center in Hartford (admittedly in a high scoring time but still)
• He was capable of being a top 10 scorer way past his prime with Carolina (admittedly in a weak era for forwards)
• Sandwiched in between he was not getting prime time opportunities outside the PP - that naturally went to Lemieux - but he was still a 100 point two-way 2C who spiked up to a 119 point guy when he was the #1C when the opportunity was there. Although that was with Jagr, that was also Francis in his 30s. Presumably he'd have done even better in his 20s.

IMO Francis was absolutely a legit #1 center in his own right and if he had been on a decent team in his prime as the #1 guy I think he would have more top placements. But I'm sure he comforts himself with his Stanley Cup rings.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Even in Carolina that's generous, Kapanen-Primeau-Sheppard was the top line when he got there. Maybe in 2001-02 Francis was their MVP, but that's one year and it was the power play that he ran with success whereas Brind'Amour was the more productive centerman on even strength.

Yeah I'm not putting Primeau over Francis, sorry. And Francis was retired by the time Brind'Amour was in his prime.

Stevens was battling with severe drug addiction later in his career, but that development only began after his 1993 injury. A low blow to take against him really.

His production dropped by almost exactly half the year he was traded off the Penguins.

 

[Regal]

Yeah I don't think it is fair to compare post Pittsburgh Stevens to post Pittsburgh Francis. Stevens was never remotely the same after the horrific 93 injury and his demons took hold.

At the same time, I don't think it is fair of people to say Francis was not capable of being a true #1 and that he was a product of Lemieux/Jagr.

• He was a 100 point center in Hartford (admittedly in a high scoring time but still)
• He was capable of being a top 10 scorer way past his prime with Carolina (admittedly in a weak era for forwards)
• Sandwiched in between he was not getting prime time opportunities outside the PP - that naturally went to Lemieux - but he was still a 100 point two-way 2C who spiked up to a 119 point guy when he was the #1C when the opportunity was there. Although that was with Jagr, that was also Francis in his 30s. Presumably he'd have done even better in his 20s.

IMO Francis was absolutely a legit #1 center in his own right and if he had been on a decent team in his prime as the #1 guy I think he would have more top placements. But I'm sure he comforts himself with his Stanley Cup rings.

I actually think sometimes those years get dismissed too easily as inflated due to his age when I don’t think it’s unreasonable that a player like him would peak in his early 30s in ‘95 and ‘96. It’s not unusual for smart playmakers to have late peaks like Henrik Sedin, Jean Ratelle, Doug Gilmour, Adam Oates, etc.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I actually think sometimes those years get dismissed too easily as inflated due to his age when I don’t think it’s unreasonable that a player like him would peak in his early 30s in ‘95 and ‘96. It’s not unusual for smart playmakers to have late peaks like Henrik Sedin, Jean Ratelle, Doug Gilmour, Adam Oates, etc.

I’m not so sure how much is age, although playmakers do tend to age better, and how much of it is strictly opportunity. In a few of those cases (Francis, Gilmour, Oates at least) you can argue it was the change or scenery or greater opportunity to be the true #1 on a team that saw their numbers rise so much.

I don’t think Gilmour was better at 30 than in his 20s for example, but he left a 1A/1B situation at center on a deep team and went to a Toronto team where he soaked up minutes and had every opportunity to show what he could do.

 

[Albatros]

Yeah I'm not putting Primeau over Francis, sorry. And Francis was retired by the time Brind'Amour was in his prime.

His production dropped by almost exactly half the year he was traded off the Penguins.

You're free to put whatever wherever, but it's a mere fact that Kapanen-Primeau-Sheppard was the top line and the top 3 scorers in Carolina at that point. Francis and Roberts weren't quite as productive, rather supporting veterans. So to say that Francis was "driving" the team would be misleading at best. As of 2001-02 Brind'Amour was 31 years old, still very good but his real prime was in Philadelphia in the 90s.

After Pittsburgh Stevens was no longer able to conduct himself professionally, but that says nothing about him as a hockey player before succumbing to cocaine and opioid addiction. 1990 to 1994 only Hull and Robitaille scored more goals than him.

 

[Felidae]

Even in Carolina that's generous, Kapanen-Primeau-Sheppard was the top line when he got there. Maybe in 2001-02 Francis was their MVP, but that's one year and it was the power play that he ran with success whereas Brind'Amour was the more productive centerman on even strength.

Stevens was battling with severe drug addiction later in his career, but that development only began after his 1993 injury. A low blow to take against him really.

Francis had 22 more points than Rod. Rod had a mere 4 more points at EV.



It also wasn't "just" one year.

Francis was 17th in scoring in 1999, led his team by 10 points and tied for EV.


All of this is ignoring that Francis was still very much a solid two way player and one of the better ones on the team.

 

[Albatros]

Francis had 22 more points than Rod. Rod had a mere 4 more points at EV.



It also wasn't "just" one year.

Francis was 17th in scoring in 1999, led his team by 10 points and tied for EV.


All of this is ignoring that Francis was still very much a solid two way player and one of the better ones on the team.

In 1999-2000 Francis was indeed the 1C, but I wouldn't say he was driving the team beyond filling that role. Sean Hill was having his career year together with Paul Coffey, and Francis fit in well with them. The following season both were gone and Brind'Amour immediately took over on even strength. Then with Hill returning in December 2001 Francis had that last hurrah, becoming an above ppg player as soon as he arrived.