Ron Francis Or Anze Kopitar?

[Regal]

So you’re saying a playmaking pass first two way forward improved his stats when his goal scoring winger came of age?

I’m not sure what the counter-argument you’re making is. It’s not a knock on Francis that his production increased with Jagr. But this is a comparison to Kopitar, who never played with a winger half as good offensively outside of maybe the one playoff run with Gaborik.

 

[RickyLafleur]

Kopitar easily. Not that Francis wasn't good and his longevity is impressive, but anyhow mostly a supplementary player that often wasn't a top 3 forward in his team, whereas Anže has been doing the heavy lifting successfully throughout his career.

Supplemental player who is top 5 in scoring in NHL history

 

[norrisnick]

You know when people always talk about a player being an ok top line center but on a contender they'd be a 2C? Francis it the prototypical version of that player.

 

[Golden_Jet]

.

 

[frisco]

I know it is a different era, but Francis had 14 point/game seasons and Kopitar has just one. I think Francis matches Kopitar defensively/faceoffs so that offensive edge tells me it is Francis.

My Best-Carey

 

[wetcoast]

So you’re saying a playmaking pass first two way forward improved his stats when his goal scoring winger came of age?

Jagr was still only 20 years old and Francis was 28 at his height. Just to counter and bring some context.

 

[wetcoast]

Francis had 101 points in Hartford.
In 92/93 Jagr had 60 points and Francis 100 points.
Doesn’t look like Jagr was carrying Francis.

You have your years mixed up above and below the stats are wrong, maybe have another look.

and the next time Francis had over 100 points was 95/96
Francis 119 points
Jagr 87 points

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Francis had 101 points in Hartford.
In 92/93 Jagr had 60 points and Francis 100 points.
Doesn’t look like Jagr was carrying Francis.

Yeah, he was 12th in league scoring, and 25th in ES scoring

and the next time Francis had over 100 points was 95/96
Francis 119 points
Jagr 87 points

Jagr had 149 points that season. Francis did have more PP points than Jagr that year though.

 

[wetcoast]

I know it is a different era, but Francis had 14 point/game seasons and Kopitar has just one. I think Francis matches Kopitar defensively/faceoffs so that offensive edge tells me it is Francis.

My Best-Carey

A lot of that has to do with era and Francis really spikes his scoring at ages 31-34 with the emergence of Jagr.

Kopitar isn't as flashy offensively but he has Sundin like consistency with lesser support.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Supplemental player who is top 5 in scoring in NHL history

Having a long career in the highest scoring era helps. Especially when that includes playing on the PP with two of the best players in the history of the game.

From 1992-93 to 1997-98, Francis led the league in secondary PP assists by a significant margin. His 92 PPA2s was 21% ahead of the next closest forward (Gretzky). He was obviously a great passer, but very clearly benefited from being able to pass it to 66 and 68 and letting them do the work.

He scored 20+ secondary PP assists in 3 out of 4 seasons from 1993-1996 (the only time he didn't was the lockout year). Not a single player in the NHL this year broke that mark.

 

[Golden_Jet]

You have your years mixed up above and below the stats are wrong, maybe have another look.

Yep I did, took the assist column some how, I would still take Francis over Kopitar

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Is Kopitar one of the 35 best centers ever?

He was the third best center of his generation.

Can't say that about Francis, who is probably closer to 10th than 3rd.

 

[RickyLafleur]

Having a long career in the highest scoring era helps. Especially when that includes playing on the PP with two of the best players in the history of the game.

From 1992-93 to 1997-98, Francis led the league in secondary PP assists by a significant margin. His 92 PPA2s was 21% ahead of the next closest forward (Gretzky). He was obviously a great passer, but very clearly benefited from being able to pass it to 66 and 68 and letting them do the work.

He scored 20+ secondary PP assists in 3 out of 4 seasons from 1993-1996 (the only time he didn't was the lockout year). Not a single player in the NHL this year broke that mark.

That may be true but you can't necessarily disregard second assist points, as they still count and Francis still has 14 PPG seasons to Kopitars 1. Also, I think that longevity is a skill, especially in an era where goons were rampant.

 

[wetcoast]

Yep I did, took the assist column some how, I would still take Francis over Kopitar

Fair enough.

 

[Machinehead]

He was the third best center of his generation.

Can't say that about Francis, who is probably closer to 10th than 3rd.

He's clearly behind Crosby and Malkin, and it's awfully convenient to not include McDavid who has been in the league half of Kopitar's career. And MacKinnon who has been in the league 60% of Kopitar's career.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

That may be true but you can't necessarily disregard second assist points,

Of course they count, but piling up 2nd assists on an elite PP can lead to extremely misleading point totals. Look at RNH as a great example.

as they still count and Francis still has 14 PPG seasons to Kopitars 1.

PPG seasons were pretty easy to come by back in the 80s and early 90s, especially playing on a team like Pittsburgh. Kopitar's production in a lower scoring era in heacy defensive systems with terrible wingers is more impressive

 

[Golden_Jet]

Of course they count, but piling up 2nd assists on an elite PP can lead to extremely misleading point totals. Look at RNH as a great example.

That’s a small percentage.

PPG seasons were pretty easy to come by back in the 80s and early 90s, especially playing on a team like Pittsburgh. Kopitar's production in a lower scoring era in heacy defensive systems with terrible wingers is more impressive

lol, that doesn’t make up for 14-1.
Francis is better, but will be close.

 

[bleedgreen]

I’m not sure what the counter-argument you’re making is. It’s not a knock on Francis that his production increased with Jagr. But this is a comparison to Kopitar, who never played with a winger half as good offensively outside of maybe the one playoff run with Gaborik.

The knock was on Francis in the post I quoted, that said he didn’t really hit his stride offensively until Jagr kicked in. Which would be obvious for any playmaking center. No, Kopitar never had a Jagr but I’ve never thought of Kopitar as a playmaker on the same level as Francis. Few players have been as dangerous around the net in terms of finding open teammates for tap ins both on the pp and even strength. Kopitar in his prime to me was a shooter as much as a playmaker. He had quality linemates over the years that complemented his style.

The fact that Francis could set up people in dangerous areas as well as almost anyone in history shouldn’t be counted against him. Jagr didn’t carry the guy. Of course Jagr scored many brilliant goals on his own but he racked up the huge numbers being fed by Francis and Lemieux.

 

[RickyLafleur]

Of course they count, but piling up 2nd assists on an elite PP can lead to extremely misleading point totals. Look at RNH as a great example.

PPG seasons were pretty easy to come by back in the 80s and early 90s, especially playing on a team like Pittsburgh. Kopitar's production in a lower scoring era in heacy defensive systems with terrible wingers is more impressive

RNH had a career year like Kadri, which we know will not be replicated. PPG seasons were easy to acquire but he's PPG every season in Hartford except one, missing by 5 points. They're both great players and 2x cup winners, but if the argument is solely based on assists, Ron Francis has more primary assists than Kopitar has total assists in his career so far.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Having a long career in the highest scoring era helps. Especially when that includes playing on the PP with two of the best players in the history of the game.

From 1992-93 to 1997-98, Francis led the league in secondary PP assists by a significant margin. His 92 PPA2s was 21% ahead of the next closest forward (Gretzky). He was obviously a great passer, but very clearly benefited from being able to pass it to 66 and 68 and letting them do the work.

He scored 20+ secondary PP assists in 3 out of 4 seasons from 1993-1996 (the only time he didn't was the lockout year). Not a single player in the NHL this year broke that mark.

He played a lot of point on the PP during that time

 

[jigglysquishy]

These results feel like heavy recency bias.

Francis is, pretty conservatively, one of the 20 best centers ever.

This isn't conservative at all.

HoH had him 35th in 2012. With the rise of Malkin, McDavid, Mackinnon, Draisaitl, and Matthews you can argue him outside the top 40.

 

[Albatros]

Even if we only look at centermen that have played in the NHL during Francis' own career it's not self-evident that he's in the top 20. For example:

Clarke, Datsyuk, Dionne, Fedorov, Forsberg, Gilmour, Gretzky, Keon, Lemieux, Lindros, Malkin, Messier, Perreault, Sakic, Sedin, Šťastný, Sundin, Thornton, Trottier, Yzerman

You can always argue about this or that player, but either way he's a rather fringe candidate at best, in his own time.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Even if we only look at centermen that have played in the NHL during Francis' own career it's not self-evident that he's in the top 20. For example:

Clarke, Datsyuk, Dionne, Fedorov, Forsberg, Gilmour, Gretzky, Keon, Lemieux, Lindros, Malkin, Messier, Perreault, Sakic, Sedin, Šťastný, Sundin, Thornton, Trottier, Yzerman

You can always argue about this or that player, but either way he's a rather fringe candidate at best, in his own time.

He’s better than about half those guys.

 

[Albatros]

He’s better than half those guys.

Which 10?

 

[Golden_Jet]

Which 10?

Rank them, if you want, then take the last 8-10 names