Mitch Marner (post playoffs) discussion thread continued...

[Havoc]

He mentioned in an article that the marner camp refused to allow the coaching staff to adjust the pp make up. He insisted on playing the right side half wall vs playing on the left goal line with Nylander on the left half wall allowing them to open up more shooting lanes.
Mitch insisted on staying on the right half wall forcing those telegraphed cross ice passes to Matthews.

I'm just confused how a players "camp" can override what the coach and team wants to do.

I'm going to say this probably isn't true...but if it turns out to be true, Marner has to go 100%. That would be the last straw for me. Don't want players like this on the team especially because it would kill the morale of everyone else who has to earn their ice time and position.

 

[Stephen]

I'm torn on this - because our bottom end also killed us.

We lost 3 games on the back of our 12/13th forward and 6th/7th defenseman folding under pressure.
- Game 1's loss was from 2 bad plays by Sandin and Thornton.
- Game 5 was lost in OT off Galchenyuk, who started the series in the stands, making a horrific turnover. Games largely tied at that point due to obvious mistakes by Sandin, Joe and even Campbell.
- Game 6 is lost on Dermott spinning like a top because he can't make a simple play with little to no pressure.

Stack the lack of production and Marner's issues in Game 6/7 and you have the series loss in a nutshell.

I'd say the middle cast was more than fine, but the top 2 and bottom 2 on the night were consistently worrying

Agree with Game 1 and ultimately what happened in Game 5. But Game 6 shouldn’t have happened. The inability to close out a series or manage momentum swings or adapt to increasing competition is a big problem that came up later and later in the series. When I watch the “urgency” of the third period with ten minutes left and down by 2-0 it looked like a random sampling of work ethic in any random playoff game. These guys just don’t get it or they’re too gassed to bring it.

 

[Stephen]

We have a weaker bottom end because we have no cap space. Therein lies the problem.

Joe Thornton really got exposed for the sub NHL level he’s at nowadays. He couldn’t even handle the puck and just resorted to swatting it around while bringing zero physicality and intensity.

 

[Nylanderthal]

I'm just confused how a players "camp" can override what the coach and team wants to do.

I'm going to say this probably isn't true...but if it turns out to be true, Marner has to go 100%. That would be the last straw for me. Don't want players like this on the team especially because it would kill the morale of everyone else who has to earn their ice time and position.

There definitely has to be questions asked about the gumption of the coaching staff and potentially the FO if indeed true. I for one have no reason to disbelieve Tulloch as he’s one of the reporters who follows the team that isn’t into sensationalizing the situation for clicks. My only thought that makes any of it excusable is upper brass decided that they were going to let the boys sink or swim, we shall see in the upcoming offseason

 

[JT AM da real deal]

What's the message you're looking to send, and when is the deadline to send it? If I'm not mistaken you've been fairly effusive in your praise of the effectiveness of our d-corps this season. And from Nylander down the forwards did their job. Campbell did his job. But between JT getting hurt, Matthews being snakebit, and Marner being ineffective we got like 8m value out of 33m in players (say 6 for Matthews as a matchup C, 2m for Marner as + level pker.

This series wasn't lost at the GM level. We iced the much better team and a small number of personnel failed to execute between the boards.

So what's the message you and your buddies are looking to send? What changes do you want to see?

It is kinda like this from a business perspective when your sales guy misses his targets but purchasing and production help mitigate da loss do you fire your president because you missed your profit objective? or do you tell your president to fire your sales guy? and what if president says well I am not gonna fire my sales guy he just had a bad year for whatever reason? To me it always starts at da top .. Shanny/Dubie both go and new management more experienced in RECENT playoff success come in OR I sell da team because I am not doing what is in best interest of da team .. in Larry's case he is not selling team .. it is his play thing and gives him a nice $25M dividend per (well maybe not past 2 years)

I do like our revised d core and I still like Willy and Kerfoot impressed me against Habs .. there are some nice pieces here .. but da core is not right .. Rielly, Mitch and Matty .. I give JT a pass due to injury ..it is a reconfiguration as opposed to a rebuild

 

[Gallagbi]

We have a weaker bottom end because we have no cap space. Therein lies the problem.

Not sure I agree. A healthy Hutton doesn't cause any of those mistakes our other LD do. Dermott is a player who has always heard footsteps and there's safer options, but he does other aspects well. Similar to Joe, you could easily have inserted Robertson, Brooks, Nash, but you lose out on the potential upside - which we did see in Game 2 and 4 specifically with our bottom end.

I think we all knew we gambled a bit with Sandin/Dermott, up and down. I think the team was a little shocked how boom/bust Thorntons play was.

 

[Gallagbi]

Agree with Game 1 and ultimately what happened in Game 5. But Game 6 shouldn’t have happened. The inability to close out a series or manage momentum swings or adapt to increasing competition is a big problem that came up later and later in the series. When I watch the “urgency” of the third period with ten minutes left and down by 2-0 it looked like a random sampling of work ethic in any random playoff game. These guys just don’t get it or they’re too gassed to bring it.

I don't think it is being gassed, I think it is largely their mental make-up. Scared of the result instead of taking control.

 

[Leafsfan74]

Marners game is east/west. Creativity off the rush, which is a gift to trapping teams like the Habs. We saw how much they enjoyed him on the ice this playoff. We saw how they waited for the inevitable overplay in the middle of the ice on the first goal. Habs game isn't new, it's as old as the game. Boring, dull, but effective when the rulebook is thrown out.

Matthews has to try and remain open against interference in the playoffs, and with Marner circling around, it gives the Habs plenty of time to set up and defend against the Richard winner. They don't care about scoring, just keepng Matthews at bay and waiting for the Marner mistake.

If the league called interference by the books, Habs have 4-5 penalties a game, easily. Go back to 2005 or whenever they decided to call the game straight and announced it. All the slow moving players were retired.

Leafs need cap space. At this point, Marner has the most value, but also a big contract. Maybe a three way trade to Seattle to open up cap space and find a more North/South winger for Matthews? Think of a Backstrom setting up a sniping Ovechkin. If they can unload a big contract, they can add legitimate, top tier, Gamer depth. They had to do it on the cheap this year, and Dubas did well, but, he can't get these deals every year. He should unload a big contract and with Freddies contract gone, use the influx of cash for tougher, bigger players. Forget about winning the division, just get into the dance.

There D was very good. If they can keep it as intact as possible, maybe add one strong addition. A big physical D Man, they will be in business. As I said at the time, I would have traded Marner for just this purpose last offseason as a rare #1 was available.

 

[BlueAzN]

The problem with the first line of Marner-Matthews-Hyman is that Hyman can't finish. He just tries sniping it but never dekes and thus, hurts his production. We just need to somehow combine Marner and Hyman, and then that would be worth the 11m cancer shitter Marner is making.

Anyways, we need to trade Marner and go from there.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

The good part of Marner's game is that he obviously cares deeply. The problems are that he struggles dealing with the high stakes of playoff hockey, and that his skillset is very one dimensional and easy to shut down. He makes so many mental mistakes and makes things so much harder for himself and his team than they need to be. Maybe he'll get comfortable and put things together, but maybe he won't. As of right now, I don't think you can bet on him. I know why Dubas did, but it was a bad bet

 

[4thline]

It is kinda like this from a business perspective when your sales guy misses his targets but purchasing and production help mitigate da loss do you fire your president because you missed your profit objective? or do you tell your president to fire your sales guy? and what if president says well I am not gonna fire my sales guy he just had a bad year for whatever reason? To me it always starts at da top .. Shanny/Dubie both go and new management more experienced in RECENT playoff success come in OR I sell da team because I am not doing what is in best interest of da team .. in Larry's case he is not selling team .. it is his play thing and gives him a nice $25M dividend per (well maybe not past 2 years)

I do like our revised d core and I still like Willy and Kerfoot impressed me against Habs .. there are some nice pieces here .. but da core is not right .. Rielly, Mitch and Matty .. I give JT a pass due to injury ..it is a reconfiguration as opposed to a rebuild

If in this scenario Dubie= President. (I think you were implying the GM = Sales but I think it's a far more encompassing role than that)
Prospect pool, defense, goaltending, organizational health etc. all STRONG = overall company health is quite good, looks positioned for long term success

VP Sales = Keefe, JT/AM/MM the big account reps.

So overall company performance was strong, but bottomline was off because your big closers f'd up when the chips were down at the end of the year, and have done it two years in a row.

I see what the pres plans to do to fix the problem at the upper end of the sales team before doing anything. If I like the plan he stays. If I don't he goes.

But going straight to the top is reactionary and risky given the overall health of the org.

 

[Leafsfan74]

Not sure I agree. A healthy Hutton doesn't cause any of those mistakes our other LD do. Dermott is a player who has always heard footsteps and there's safer options, but he does other aspects well. Similar to Joe, you could easily have inserted Robertson, Brooks, Nash, but you lose out on the potential upside - which we did see in Game 2 and 4 specifically with our bottom end.

I think we all knew we gambled a bit with Sandin/Dermott, up and down. I think the team was a little shocked how boom/bust Thorntons play was.

Well I'm speaking specifically of the forward group.

If you have a 20 year old playing D in the playoffs, in my opinion you did something wrong or have significant injuries. It's why Dubas needed a healthy, strong D Man as the deadline in case you need to fill in for a Dermott of whomever.

I didn't want to see Sandin, he is a future player who may become a very good player, this is not the big stage he can succeed on at his age against a rival who traps in the playoffs. He needed to be an option further down.

 

[TorMapleJays]

Which one did babcock not like?

 

[Gabriel426]

But if your core is doing the job then all good. Problem is the core is not doing the job

Point I am trying to get is this. Trading someone like Patty Kane, Kopitar or Eichel, the Leafs will still have 4 players using half the cap. Would it make more sense if the Leafs have 5 players using half the cap instead of four.

 

[Kurtz]

We have a weaker bottom end because we have no cap space. Therein lies the problem.

Definitely part of it - but also bad choices by Dubas. Perry wanted to sign here for the min. Imagine him on the Leafs this series instead of the Habs - we likely win it.

Instead, Kyle passed and went with Thorton and Jimmy Vesey. Brutal.

 

[LaPlante94]

Definitely part of it - but also bad choices by Dubas. Perry wanted to sign here for the min. Imagine him on the Leafs this series instead of the Habs - we likely win it.

Instead, Kyle passed and went with Thorton and Jimmy Vesey. Brutal.

Signing Perry would have been a dream but these boards would have freaked out with the "He's too slow and he's old" takes. It's crazy that some don't get the value of what he brings to a team with his skill set and the way he plays. Especially during playoffs where you need guys who can play down low and battle in front of the net and get some greasy goals.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

If in this scenario Dubie= President. (I think you were implying the GM = Sales but I think it's a far more encompassing role than that)
Prospect pool, defense, goaltending, organizational health etc. all STRONG = overall company health is quite good, looks positioned for long term success

VP Sales = Keefe, JT/AM/MM the big account reps.

So overall company performance was strong, but bottomline was off because your big closers f'd up when the chips were down at the end of the year, and have done it two years in a row.

I see what the pres plans to do to fix the problem at the upper end of the sales team before doing anything. If I like the plan he stays. If I don't he goes.

But going straight to the top is reactionary and risky given the overall health of the org.

It could be .. i was never a good corporate guy .. always liked to call my own shots whether I live or I die .. and god knows I have failed far more than succeeded .. but you only need 2 or 3 great moves in life to win big .. either way we all want our Leafs back on top .. I am more than a little frustrated funding this mess for years .. like I said maybe best to take a year off sponsorship and resell my tickets to a ticket broker for a little return

 

[Mess]

Agree with Game 1 and ultimately what happened in Game 5. But Game 6 shouldn’t have happened. The inability to close out a series or manage momentum swings or adapt to increasing competition is a big problem that came up later and later in the series. When I watch the “urgency” of the third period with ten minutes left and down by 2-0 it looked like a random sampling of work ethic in any random playoff game. These guys just don’t get it or they’re too gassed to bring it.

Leafs played 7 games in 12 nights so I don't think you can rule "run out of gas" out of the equation based on the high volume of TOI/g that Keefe gave both Matthews and Marner in the series.

Overplaying and running them into the ground would show up late in games when mounting a comeback, or late in a series as a compiled problem by then.

In games #5, 6 and 7 Matthews and Marner combined for 1 assist each and their impact on games got less and less as the series progressed.

Their actual ice times in gamed 5-7 were;
AM : 24:33, 30:11, & 24:46
MM: 24:28, 30:22, & 23:55

So in a little over 78 minutes each of ice-time they produced 0-2-2 points combined.

PS. In game #6 when you see Marner with nobody around him and no pressure toss a puck 200ft in the air and out of bounds to put the team 2 men down and gift wrap the game for the opposition that looks like pure physical and mental exhaustion to me.

 

[Leafsfan74]

Definitely part of it - but also bad choices by Dubas. Perry wanted to sign here for the min. Imagine him on the Leafs this series instead of the Habs - we likely win it.

Instead, Kyle passed and went with Thorton and Jimmy Vesey. Brutal.

I never understood the Thornton signing much as I didn't understand the Tavares signing, for different reasons. There was no doubt Joe would bring some locker room presence which they needed but Joe wasn't going to carry the team at 41. The big guns needed to produce. A cheap, low risk pick up, but wishful thinking.

Vesey was one of those cheap fliers. It worked or it didn't. Again, all of this points back to the cap issues. Leafs didn't have any wiggle room and they needed to piece together a team. He did well on the back end and took calculated risks up front, it almost worked in the first round.

The focus needs to be first on keeping the D core together with Bogosian, adding a piece at some point by next years deadline. Then moving a big contract to go hunting for North/South, net crashing Gamers up front.

For the first time in some time I'm starting to believe we need a clearly more physical element to the game. 205+ pound presence. If Leafs were hitting Weber and Charot every shift from game one on, with heavy bodies; there is no way they can play 30+ minutes by game 5 without being a liability. I've seen it time and again, waves of players just dump it into the trapping teams zone and power skate until contact. There is no way to interfere in that.

It's a part of playoff hockey and will remain so at the expense of creativity. Leafs need to get on board. At the very least, they still need a net presence, Simmonds and Foligno didn't provide this (puck was rarely there in their defense).

Leafs dealt with being outhit all season, but, it clearly takes a toll. Keefe himself knows this by stating publicly he wants them to be physical too. He knows the game. Too many on this team are afraid of the physical game. Not a good sign.

 

[Stringer Bell]

Pretty bitter about how bad Marner is, but we're more likely to lose Matthews for nothing at free agency so maybe we need to hang on to Marner.

 

[LaPlante94]

Leafs played 7 games in 12 nights so I don't think you can rule "run out of gas" out of the equation based on the high volume of TOI/g that Keefe gave both Matthews and Marner in the series.

Overplaying and running them into the ground would show up late in games when mounting a comeback, or late in a series as a compiled problem by then.

In games #5, 6 and 7 Matthews and Marner combined for 1 assist each and their impact on games got less and less as the series progressed.

Their actual ice times in gamed 5-7 were;
AM : 24:33, 30:11, & 24:46
MM: 24:28, 30:22, & 23:55

So in a little over 78 minutes each of ice-time they produced 0-2-2 points combined.

Matthews got 3 of his 5 points in game 2 and Marner got 2 of his 4. Matthews was held to without a point in 3 of the 1st 4 games and Marner 2/4 of the games. Even when they didn't have the run out of gas excuse they didn't produce. That line should've just been split up but I guess 1 good game out of 7 was good enough for Keefe.

 

[Superstar]

Pretty bitter about how bad Marner is, but we're more likely to lose Matthews for nothing at free agency so maybe we need to hang on to Marner.

For what? For 0 goals in 18 playoff games at his salary?

 

[The Blueprint]

Love Marner. I think he's got all the talent in the world, but he also asked for all the money in the world and then crumbled under the weight of it all.

I wish it worked out different for him here, I just don't see it going good for him or the team keeping things how they are right now.

 

[Kazparov]

I'm old enough to remember Killer.

Doug Gilmour was about the same size. Similar skill set with shifty skating and great vision. And played in a much tougher era.

All I could think about when Marner was getting interfered with and bullied was how he looked to the refs everytime with the pained look of a victim looking for a call, for someone else to save him and set it right.

Killer would spear you in the nuts. He got tougher and nastier as series went on. You couldn't intimidate him, he sought his own brutal justice.

Marner has none of that.

 

[Stephen]

I'm old enough to remember Killer.

Doug Gilmour was about the same size. Similar skill set with shifty skating and great vision. And played in a much tougher era.

All I could think about when Marner was getting interfered with and bullied was how he looked to the refs everytime with the pained look of a victim looking for a call, for someone else to save him and set it right.

Killer would spear you in the nuts. He got tougher and nastier as series went on. You couldn't intimidate him, he sought his own brutal justice.

Marner has none of that.

I just don’t even understand how as a competitor you would be looking for the penalty call and not looking to bloody someone else right back for mistreating you or a teammate.