Mitch Marner (post playoffs) discussion thread continued...

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Marner and Gilmour aren’t even in the same universe. It’s insulting to Dougie to even mention them in the same breath.

At any rate, based on all the reports about Marner being a diva I think the choice is obvious who to move from the core.

 

[Captain14]

Marners game is east/west. Creativity off the rush, which is a gift to trapping teams like the Habs. We saw how much they enjoyed him on the ice this playoff. We saw how they waited for the inevitable overplay in the middle of the ice on the first goal. Habs game isn't new, it's as old as the game. Boring, dull, but effective when the rulebook is thrown out.

Matthews has to try and remain open against interference in the playoffs, and with Marner circling around, it gives the Habs plenty of time to set up and defend against the Richard winner. They don't care about scoring, just keepng Matthews at bay and waiting for the Marner mistake.

If the league called interference by the books, Habs have 4-5 penalties a game, easily. Go back to 2005 or whenever they decided to call the game straight and announced it. All the slow moving players were retired.

Leafs need cap space. At this point, Marner has the most value, but also a big contract. Maybe a three way trade to Seattle to open up cap space and find a more North/South winger for Matthews? Think of a Backstrom setting up a sniping Ovechkin. If they can unload a big contract, they can add legitimate, top tier, Gamer depth. They had to do it on the cheap this year, and Dubas did well, but, he can't get these deals every year. He should unload a big contract and with Freddies contract gone, use the influx of cash for tougher, bigger players. Forget about winning the division, just get into the dance.

There D was very good. If they can keep it as intact as possible, maybe add one strong addition. A big physical D Man, they will be in business. As I said at the time, I would have traded Marner for just this purpose last offseason as a rare #1 was available.

Good comments.
I will just add that giving up another first round pick for Foligno, especially when our future draft board is already gutted, was a massive mistake by management.
We gave up that pick for absolutely no contribution whatsoever with the exception of one fight that did nothing for the team.

 

[Superstar]

Marner and Gilmour aren’t even in the same universe. It’s insulting to Dougie to even mention them in the same breath.

Gilmour packed himself with pasta between playoff games and shed a ton of weight in energy and sweat after every game giving his all...playoff was a life and death situation for Gilmour...they are incomparable.

 

[Leafsfan74]

Good comments.
I will just add that giving up another first round pick for Foligno, especially when our future draft board is already gutted, was a massive mistake by management.
We gave up that pick for absolutely no contribution whatsoever with the exception of one fight that did nothing for the team.

It was a calculated risk for a team that was supposed to make a deep run. He was clearly injured early and generally ineffective. I did think he did well at one point on the top line and I also think he came back early due to the Leafs not closing it out in five.

 

[Kurtz]

I never understood the Thornton signing much as I didn't understand the Tavares signing, for different reasons. There was no doubt Joe would bring some locker room presence which they needed but Joe wasn't going to carry the team at 41. The big guns needed to produce. A cheap, low risk pick up, but wishful thinking.

Vesey was one of those cheap fliers. It worked or it didn't. Again, all of this points back to the cap issues. Leafs didn't have any wiggle room and they needed to piece together a team. He did well on the back end and took calculated risks up front, it almost worked in the first round.

The focus needs to be first on keeping the D core together with Bogosian, adding a piece at some point by next years deadline. Then moving a big contract to go hunting for North/South, net crashing Gamers up front.

For the first time in some time I'm starting to believe we need a clearly more physical element to the game. 205+ pound presence. If Leafs were hitting Weber and Charot every shift from game one on, with heavy bodies; there is no way they can play 30+ minutes by game 5 without being a liability. I've seen it time and again, waves of players just dump it into the trapping teams zone and power skate until contact. There is no way to interfere in that.

It's a part of playoff hockey and will remain so at the expense of creativity. Leafs need to get on board. At the very least, they still need a net presence, Simmonds and Foligno didn't provide this (puck was rarely there in their defense).

Leafs dealt with being outhit all season, but, it clearly takes a toll. Keefe himself knows this by stating publicly he wants them to be physical too. He knows the game. Too many on this team are afraid of the physical game. Not a good sign.

Yes, this is an excellent point. Habs were relying on only 4 guys defensively, and Weber wasn't healthy to begin with. If we had a physical team, we'd have worn those 4 out by game 5 and cruised to victory. The Blues 2019 team is a good example of that - they were outskilled in almost every matchup, but they ground the opponent down and then had their way with them by the end of each series.

That's why it didn't make sense for us to take a flyer on a guy like Vesey especially, given that he offered nothing in the physical department. Simmonds didn't work out, but at least he made sense. But Vesey made no sense at all from the get go.

 

[DuklaNation]

5 goals in 32 career playoff games. Thats bad.

 

[koyvoo]

I'm old enough to remember Killer.

Doug Gilmour was about the same size. Similar skill set with shifty skating and great vision. And played in a much tougher era.

All I could think about when Marner was getting interfered with and bullied was how he looked to the refs everytime with the pained look of a victim looking for a call, for someone else to save him and set it right.

Killer would spear you in the nuts. He got tougher and nastier as series went on. You couldn't intimidate him, he sought his own brutal justice.

Marner has none of that.

Mitch Marner (and Auston Matthews for that matter) are so far removed from someone like Gilmour, it’s like comparing apples to ass cracks.

Can anyone who clearly remembers Gilmour ever imagine him putting in anything close to the embarrassing efforts these two pretenders put in?

Imagine if Gilmour was their teammate! Lol.

Here we were begging for one last ditch desperation effort from these two fakers, of the ilk that Gilmour gave us 21 times in 42 days in 1993.

 

[Antropovsky]

Marner for Laine and Jenner. The problem with trading marner is his value is low atm, but so is Laine's. You can sign Laine for much less and use the additional cap space elsewhere.

Laine sucks.... he's got a shot and size and nothing else. Bigger warts than Marner.

 

[Mentat]

I´d love to believe that Dubas has the testicular fortitude to part ways with one of the core, mainly MM.
If he finds said fortitude, i´ll be very very surprised.

 

[BigRig4]

I wonder how much Marner's salary structure could be an issue if Toronto chooses to move him. I'm not sure many teams can afford a player who makes huge chunks upfront on July 1st, especially in pandemic times.

 

[Pete2000]

ONE SLIGHTLY USED MARNER JERSEY, 25 cents or best offer

 

[Kurtz]

One other note on Mitch. I was watching his post-game presser and it struck me how tiny his upper-body was. It's one thing for him to look like that as a rookie, but after 5 years of having the opportunity to train with the best trainers in the world, how do you still have the body of a child?

Mitch is 6 feet tall with fantastic balance. If he put in an effort in the gym, he could be a powerhouse out there. Instead, he's still blown over by a slight breeze.

And we wonder why he struggles in more physical playoffs.

 

[DarkKnight]

I wonder how much Marner's salary structure could be an issue if Toronto chooses to move him. I'm not sure many teams can afford a player who makes huge chunks upfront on July 1st, especially in pandemic times.

It’s a huge issue if you want to get full value, there will always be a team willing to do it, but you won’t have a feeding frenzy because of that contract in a flat cap, which isn’t going up for years if forecasts are correct.

 

[Captain14]

It was a calculated risk for a team that was supposed to make a deep run. He was clearly injured early and generally ineffective. I did think he did well at one point on the top line and I also think he came back early due to the Leafs not closing it out in five.

I agree. But even I knew that just adding Foligno was not going to change our willingness to finish checks, be hard on the puck and do whatever it takes to make a play.
One or two guys can’t change that, the entire roster has to be on board with that style of play.
Soup is 6’5” with speed, yet turned away from every opportunity to put a Montreal Defenseman on his ass, they all were guilty of it.
How long will guys like Simmonds and Foligno go to war for their teammates when they realize that nobody will go to war for them as well?
There is just zero will to compete and be a difficult team to play against.

 

[FabledKnight]

Think LA would be willing to part with Turcotte?

 

[Peasy]

I wonder how much Marner's salary structure could be an issue if Toronto chooses to move him. I'm not sure many teams can afford a player who makes huge chunks upfront on July 1st, especially in pandemic times.

Take a look at his contract structure. After his signing bonus is paid for next season, 62% of his money on the contract will have been paid out. Its actually a huge bonus for the Leafs.

 

[keonsbitterness]

I wonder how much Marner's salary structure could be an issue if Toronto chooses to move him. I'm not sure many teams can afford a player who makes huge chunks upfront on July 1st, especially in pandemic times.

He's owed less actual money for the rest of his contract because of the bonus money he has already been paid. The issue would be if the other team could handle his cap hit.

 

[Mentat]

I wonder how much Marner's salary structure could be an issue if Toronto chooses to move him. I'm not sure many teams can afford a player who makes huge chunks upfront on July 1st, especially in pandemic times.

9.6M this upcoming July and 7.25M the next three.
AAV is what it is, but the real money owed MM is a lot more palatable.

 

[Gary Nylund]

It was a calculated risk for a team that was supposed to make a deep run. He was clearly injured early and generally ineffective. I did think he did well at one point on the top line and I also think he came back early due to the Leafs not closing it out in five.

Since it's been shown rather conclusively that thinking this team could go on a deep run was a pipe dream, pissing away a 1st round pick for a grade B rental was a really bad gamble. When things go well you get the credit, when they don't you take the blame. And considering how valuable 1st round picks are, Dubas deserves a lot of blame for this one.

If it was up to me, I'd put a hard rule in place right now. Until this team wins at least one playoff round, no more pissing away picks on rentals, period.

Disclaimer - I think rentals are rarely a good idea anyway and saying no rentals never ever no matter what would likely be a good idea as well.

 

[Mess]

Bottom line:

Marner is a great regular season player when nobody cares, and a poor playoff performer when everybody does.

Marner's regular season points 55 games 20 goals 47 assists 67 points [= 100 point pace on 82 games or 1.2 PPG]

While 4 assists in 5 games last year, and 4 assists in 7 games this year = 8 points in 12 playoff games [= 55 point pace on 82 game season or .667 PPG]

Instead of getting better with the playoffs Marner's regular production is essentially cut in 1/2 on points and pace.

This is counter productive and counterintuitive to pin ones hopes of Leafs playoff success on.

 

[Byron Bitz]

He's owed less actual money for the rest of his contract because of the bonus money he has already been paid. The issue would be if the other team could handle his cap hit.

He would have more value to a budget team that needs a marketable star to put fans in the seats

 

[BigRig4]

Take a look at his contract structure. After his signing bonus is paid for next season, 62% of his money on the contract will have been paid out. Its actually a huge bonus for the Leafs.

For teams with liquidity it is actually a bonus, no doubt.

As a Sens fan who always has to over-analyze the signing bonuses, I notice the 7.25 million up front and think that might be tough to do for some teams.

 

[Atomos2]

This guy had the audacity to demand an A on his jersey after his ridiculous contract signing. And where is he when it comes time to actually lead? Completely invisible. What a joke of a player.

He should get that stripped. The fact he gets an A before Muzzin, Brodie, Spezza or hell even Hyman is a f***ing disgrace.

 

[stickty111]

Marner needs to go. He cannot be part of this core anymore. He disappears when it counts.

I would trade him in a heartbeat for either a solid young dman + OR another winger/center type that wants out (Eichel).

He cost us in both of the last games, and that doesnt count not showing up the rest of the series.

He has to go. See ya.

Yeah but if you see carefully and ignore all his faults, he is better then Kane, Point, McDavid and Gretzky as well.

 

[TheTotalPackage]

I can't remember who laid the hit on him, but Marner getting obliterated and knocked on his ass in the neutral zone in the 3rd period pretty much put an exclamation mark on this underwhelming series.