Player Discussion Mitch Marner - On Hiatus

[rumman]

If they play the same way and have the same game plan as the regular season they should be fine. If they try and change their style because it’s the playoffs and they are supposedly different they will continue to lose.

Better idea is to adopt playoff hockey in September so there’s no need for changing styles, that way they’ll be successful from the start……..

 

[ToneDog]

If they play the same way and have the same game plan as the regular season they should be fine. If they try and change their style because it’s the playoffs and they are supposedly different they will continue to lose.

You cannot play shinny from September to April and then flip a switch to playoff hockey. Dubas tried adding the missing ingredients last year and of course it did not work. I bet Berube gets them playing his North-South style right away.

 

[rumman]

You cannot play shinny from September to April and then flip a switch to playoff hockey. Dubas tried adding the missing ingredients last year and of course it did not work. I bet Berube gets them playing his North-South style right away.

It seems so logical, but can’t be grasped by some………

 

[Gary Nylund]

Agreed we need a top goalie but how can you blame a guy who gives up one goal in regulation in game #7 when you have half your cap invested in 4 forwards? This team virtually needs a SO to win a game #7.

Good question.

If they play the same way and have the same game plan as the regular season they should be fine. If they try and change their style because it’s the playoffs and they are supposedly different they will continue to lose.

They played the right way starting in game 5 but they need to start playing that way in October.

 

[Zybalto]

Agreed we need a top goalie but how can you blame a guy who gives up one goal in regulation in game #7 when you have half your cap invested in 4 forwards? This team virtually needs a SO to win a game #7.

We dont even need a top goalie, I'd settle for a half decent one TBH.

If "flip the goalies and we win the series" is a real thing (and it has been for close to a gawdam decade now) then I figure people would kind of see the light. Goalies play the whole game (and whole series if they are at least above average) Samsonov has been pulled in his last 2 series back to back (they only goalie I can think of this happening to), our league MPV contender got hurt, our playoff scoring sniper was playing hurt (theres 25 million there) and we are going to point fingers in the wrong direction?

I can see going after Marner for "killer instinct" or something might be a thing but he makes beauty passes to dangerous areas in big games all the time. Sawyman was easily Boston's MVP and on almost all mainstream top 3 conn smyth lists before the Bruins got knocked out. Bobrovsky was the MVP favorite coming into the finals and was set to win it if the Cats won last year. Vasy might have won it again if the Bolts won. Price almost won it on a losing team in 2020. (and probably should have)

The Leafs havnt just faced great goaltending, they have faced a gauntlet of elite goaltending no other team has seen early in playoff runs. They would have still lost of course but were just seeing it earlier than other teams. Part of being in the best division for goaltending in the modern era I suppose but you cant expect to have success throwing these losers in net against them.....

and, yes Marner has still gone PPG against them somehow. Pretty sure his points totals would be far higher playing the in the West but that doesnt matter either. I want the team to win. Marner has been by far a positive to the team in the playoffs. The biggest issue has been goaltending.

This isnt like a Panarin issue. That guy is soft, is sheltered, is a defensive liability and has scored waay below his usual pace in the playoffs. Marner has been one of the best defensive wingers in the playoffs, is buried in defensive zone draws against the other teams best players and is still a PPG player the last 3 years despite the elite goaltending he's facing.

Losing Marner would be devastating to the team. The whole strategy this year would be to pile the tough minutes on Marner and Tavares giving Matthews/Domi line free reign on secondary matchups. It actually looked really good until A) Matthews got hurt and B) Samsonov crapped the bed again. I feel like Im taking crazy pills a bit. So the Leafs (the underdog team) has their starting goalie implode again against a consensus conn smyth challenger goalie, their two biggest goal scorers get injured and the blame for how the series went goes to Marner and Rielly? If we didnt have those two guys on the team, we would have probably been wrecked outright in many playoff series instead of them going down to the wire.

They played the right way starting in game 5 but they need to start playing that way in October.

Had nothing to do with Woll taking the net right?

 

[Confucius]

They played the right way starting in game 5 but they need to start playing that way in October.

Oilers avg hits per game this playoffs 32, Dallas 27, Panthers 43, Rangers 34, and our beloved Leafs who were supposedly playing shinny averaged 50 hits per game.

 

[PromisedLand]

Here is the mitch marner apologists and shanaCON arguing for "run it back" and then complaining...

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Both Matthews and Willy getting hurt certainly didnt help things but you are still avoiding the question. Name the goalies.....

...and Skinner is far better than both Campbell and Samsonov. The Leafs are a better defensive team than the Oilers (and that showed when Skinner beat out "huge FA signing Campbell" in record time for the starting job in Edm.)

Meanwhile, its tough to score against the great goaltending we've come up against yea but why attack a PPG guy who's had crappy finishing on his passing?

https://x.com/i/web/status/1794524323614687349

Stop yelling at clouds bro and get the real pressure on the team to get a goalie.

Oh do tell what a "scoring chance assist" is. I can't wait!

That’s great. Now the real stat that matters. 3 points in 7 games. 1 useless goal when the game was over and a shovel pass assist to the point.

Im guessing lots of teams will start to venture away from analytics, and this is a perfect example why.

Analytics are garbage.

 

[GoonieFace]

We dont even need a top goalie, I'd settle for a half decent one TBH.

If "flip the goalies and we win the series" is a real thing (and it has been for close to a gawdam decade now) then I figure people would kind of see the light. Goalies play the whole game (and whole series if they are at least above average) Samsonov has been pulled in his last 2 series back to back (they only goalie I can think of this happening to), our league MPV contender got hurt, our playoff scoring sniper was playing hurt (theres 25 million there) and we are going to point fingers in the wrong direction?

I can see going after Marner for "killer instinct" or something might be a thing but he makes beauty passes to dangerous areas in big games all the time. Sawyman was easily Boston's MVP and on almost all mainstream top 3 conn smyth lists before the Bruins got knocked out. Bobrovsky was the MVP favorite coming into the finals and was set to win it if the Cats won last year. Vasy might have won it again if the Bolts won. Price almost won it on a losing team in 2020. (and probably should have)

The Leafs havnt just faced great goaltending, they have faced a gauntlet of elite goaltending no other team has seen early in playoff runs. They would have still lost of course but were just seeing it earlier than other teams. Part of being in the best division for goaltending in the modern era I suppose but you cant expect to have success throwing these losers in net against them.....

and, yes Marner has still gone PPG against them somehow. Pretty sure his points totals would be far higher playing the in the West but that doesnt matter either. I want the team to win. Marner has been by far a positive to the team in the playoffs. The biggest issue has been goaltending.

This isnt like a Panarin issue. That guy is soft, is sheltered, is a defensive liability and has scored waay below his usual pace in the playoffs. Marner has been one of the best defensive wingers in the playoffs, is buried in defensive zone draws against the other teams best players and is still a PPG player the last 3 years despite the elite goaltending he's facing.

Losing Marner would be devastating to the team. The whole strategy this year would be to pile the tough minutes on Marner and Tavares giving Matthews/Domi line free reign on secondary matchups. It actually looked really good until A) Matthews got hurt and B) Samsonov crapped the bed again. I feel like Im taking crazy pills a bit. So the Leafs (the underdog team) has their starting goalie implode again against a consensus conn smyth challenger goalie, their two biggest goal scorers get injured and the blame for how the series went goes to Marner and Rielly? If we didnt have those two guys on the team, we would have probably been wrecked outright in many playoff series instead of them going down to the wire.



Had nothing to do with Woll taking the net right?

What’s the weather like in fantasy land?

 

[Gary Nylund]

Losing Marner would be devastating to the team. The whole strategy this year would be to pile the tough minutes on Marner and Tavares giving Matthews/Domi line free reign on secondary matchups. It actually looked really good until A) Matthews got hurt and B) Samsonov crapped the bed again. I feel like Im taking crazy pills a bit. So the Leafs (the underdog team) has their starting goalie implode again against a consensus conn smyth challenger goalie, their two biggest goal scorers get injured and the blame for how the series went goes to Marner and Rielly? If we didnt have those two guys on the team, we would have probably been wrecked outright in many playoff series instead of them going down to the wire.

Yeah imagine tampering with the winning formula that has resulted in one playoff round win in the last 72 years or whatever it is.

Had nothing to do with Woll taking the net right?

Nope.

Oilers avg hits per game this playoffs 32, Dallas 27, Panthers 43, Rangers 34, and our beloved Leafs who were supposedly playing shinny averaged 50 hits per game.

My understanding is that hit stats are complete BS. But at any rate, that has nothing to do with what I was talking about but that's my fault I guess because I didn't explain what I mean. OK I didn't explain because I thought it was obvious - in games 5-7 we showed a commitment to team defence, period. And that's how you win in the playoffs, period. Had we played like that from the start we would have beaten Boston for sure and then we maybe would be hearing less nonsense about how this team led by the dominant beast they call money Mitch would be unstoppable if only we had better goaltending. But whatever, we probably would have been stomped in round 2 so it doesn't matter anyway.

Oh do tell what a "scoring chance assist" is. I can't wait!

Analytics are garbage.

LMAO, indeed. Any time someone uses stats to prove something that's obviously not true you can confidently file those stats under the heading "Unreliable".

 

[socko]

Bertuzzi Matthews Domi
Knies Reinhart Nylander

That's starting to look like a real hockey team.

 

[rumman]

Bertuzzi Matthews Domi
Knies Reinhart Nylander

That's starting to look like a real hockey team.

this results in the same problem as with Marner, too much spent on forwards, too little spent on D and G..............

 

[ToneDog]

We dont even need a top goalie, I'd settle for a half decent one TBH.

If "flip the goalies and we win the series" is a real thing (and it has been for close to a gawdam decade now) then I figure people would kind of see the light. Goalies play the whole game (and whole series if they are at least above average) Samsonov has been pulled in his last 2 series back to back (they only goalie I can think of this happening to), our league MPV contender got hurt, our playoff scoring sniper was playing hurt (theres 25 million there) and we are going to point fingers in the wrong direction?

I can see going after Marner for "killer instinct" or something might be a thing but he makes beauty passes to dangerous areas in big games all the time. Sawyman was easily Boston's MVP and on almost all mainstream top 3 conn smyth lists before the Bruins got knocked out. Bobrovsky was the MVP favorite coming into the finals and was set to win it if the Cats won last year. Vasy might have won it again if the Bolts won. Price almost won it on a losing team in 2020. (and probably should have)

The Leafs havnt just faced great goaltending, they have faced a gauntlet of elite goaltending no other team has seen early in playoff runs. They would have still lost of course but were just seeing it earlier than other teams. Part of being in the best division for goaltending in the modern era I suppose but you cant expect to have success throwing these losers in net against them.....

and, yes Marner has still gone PPG against them somehow. Pretty sure his points totals would be far higher playing the in the West but that doesnt matter either. I want the team to win. Marner has been by far a positive to the team in the playoffs. The biggest issue has been goaltending.

This isnt like a Panarin issue. That guy is soft, is sheltered, is a defensive liability and has scored waay below his usual pace in the playoffs. Marner has been one of the best defensive wingers in the playoffs, is buried in defensive zone draws against the other teams best players and is still a PPG player the last 3 years despite the elite goaltending he's facing.

Losing Marner would be devastating to the team. The whole strategy this year would be to pile the tough minutes on Marner and Tavares giving Matthews/Domi line free reign on secondary matchups. It actually looked really good until A) Matthews got hurt and B) Samsonov crapped the bed again. I feel like Im taking crazy pills a bit. So the Leafs (the underdog team) has their starting goalie implode again against a consensus conn smyth challenger goalie, their two biggest goal scorers get injured and the blame for how the series went goes to Marner and Rielly? If we didnt have those two guys on the team, we would have probably been wrecked outright in many playoff series instead of them going down to the wire.



Had nothing to do with Woll taking the net right?

Florida just went through Vasi, Swayman and Shesterkin. Yes, Bob has been elite but at some point your forwards have to get it done. Losing Marner for nothing would set us back but trading him for the right pieces is what is needed to take the next step IMO.

 

[socko]

this results in the same problem as with Marner, too much spent on forwards, too little spent on D and G..............

Well I personally see the biggest playoff problem as the lack of scoring. And in goal, in particular, high paid doesn't always equal good.

 

[Confucius]

Yeah imagine tampering with the winning formula that has resulted in one playoff round win in the last 72 years or whatever it is.



My understanding is that hit stats are complete BS. But at any rate, that has nothing to do with what I was talking about but that's my fault I guess because I didn't explain what I mean. OK I didn't explain because I thought it was obvious - in games 5-7 we showed a commitment to team defence, period. And that's how you win in the playoffs, period. Had we played like that from the start we would have beaten Boston for sure and then we maybe would be hearing less nonsense about how this team led by the dominant beast they call money Mitch would be unstoppable if only we had better goaltending. But whatever, we probably would have been stomped in round 2 so it doesn't matter anyway.

I guess my reply should have been directed to the guy that said we can’t be playing shinny in the playoffs. lol! Well the remaining teams are doing fine carrying on with their regular season style. I think only the Leafs get hoodwinked into the “you better change the way you play in the playoffs”.

Regardless I do agree with, whatever way you play in October/ March better be the same way you play in the playoffs.

Especially if the way you played during the regular season was a winning formula, don’t tamper with it.

 

[socko]

The Rangers have the same problem of soft players that can't get it done. They're not quite as bad because, Panarin for example, while soft has a NHL caliber shot. But they do have much better goaltending. But they'll probably never win with that team if they don't get some more playoff guys, as it is, it's just Kreider.

 

[rumman]

Well I personally see the biggest playoff problem as the lack of scoring. And in goal, in particular, high paid doesn't always equal good.

have to balance the cap first and foremost, if having high priced chokers like 34, 16, 88, and 91 can't get it done it's not lack of goals, it's lack of heart. Reinhart though, imo has plenty of heart...........

I guess my reply should have been directed to the guy that said we can’t be playing shinny in the playoffs. lol! Well the remaining teams are doing fine carrying on with their regular season style. I think only the Leafs get hoodwinked into the “you better change the way you play in the playoffs”.

Regardless I do agree with, whatever way you play in October/ March better be the same way you play in the playoffs.

Especially if the way you played during the regular season was a winning formula, don’t tamper with it.

you don't get it, the high flying hockey the Leafs play in the regular season doesn't work in the playoffs, you really should stop trying to put a square peg in a round hole............

 

[Stephen]

Florida just went through Vasi, Swayman and Shesterkin. Yes, Bob has been elite but at some point your forwards have to get it done. Losing Marner for nothing would set us back but trading him for the right pieces is what is needed to take the next step IMO.

What makes Florida's forward grup successful is they have a pretty deep bench of guys who are on the bigger side, can skate, play nasty and seem to enjoy defensive detail, like they enjoy disrupting you, smothering you and know that effort leads to offensive chances. Then you have their D whose strength looks like quick transition and ability to scramble and defend. And you have a Hall of Fame Russian goalie having a career renaissance to hold it down. That's a lot of strengths and team attributes, identity that becomes a 20 man unit.

Our Leafs brand over the years is "we bet on skill, let the powerplay be our toughness and goalies are voodoo" It's a literal contrast between an organization building a serious team concept with intangibles and strength at every position vs a superficial video game roster that would look thin by NBA standards.

 

[Confucius]

you don't get it, the high flying hockey the Leafs play in the regular season doesn't work in the playoffs, you really should stop trying to put a square peg in a round hole............

Well maybe some year they will try it.

 

[socko]

It doesn't seem like too many teams have traded for a top goalie. Seems you have to home grow those. You hit the UFA goalie market and it looks like a wasteland of regret.

 

[Stephen]

Good question.

They played the right way starting in game 5 but they need to start playing that way in October.

One of the best Leafs playoff efforts I've ever seen was Game 4 vs Florida on the verge of a sweep. On the verge of humifaction, they just put it all together and it was full 60 minutes of playoff hockey as a clinic.

So if that team and its core players were carrying over learning what it takes to win in the playoffs, have some muscle memory of it, it just makes their effort in Game 1, 3, 4 vs Boston so much more pathetic and Game 5, 6, 7 so much more inexplicable.

Are these guys playing to win a series and pursue a championship, or just to save face on the verge of humiliation?

 

[Confucius]

It doesn't seem like too many teams have traded for a top goalie. Seems you have to home grow those. You hit the UFA goalie market and it looks like a wasteland of regret.

True warriors, 100% effort guys rarely become UFA’s. Most UFA’s come with some issue.

 

[keonsbitterness]

That's exactly why GUARANTEED CONTRACTS are one of the major problems.

I'm really sick and tired of players, like Marner, taking more money than they're really worth and then disappearing when their teams, and especially their fans, need them to show up the most.

The NHL needs to get rid of guaranteed contracts as well as the no trade, no movement clauses. Sure, maybe the players should have some say as to where they are employed, so lets give them a 10-12 team no trade clause instead. Also have them provide the list annually.

Also, the players should have more right to determine where they want to play when entering the NHL. The draft should be modified to give the players some power. Maybe have each draft eligible player provide a list of destination teams. A draft player / team draft match up process.

JMHO.

With possible exception of changes to player clauses, none of those things will ever happen.

Had nothing to do with Woll taking the net right?

Sure, he was better than Samsonov (which no one saw coming because Woll was very mediocre coming back from injury), but the biggest problem was only scoring 12 goals in 7 games, and only 26 in the last 14 playoff games. There is hardly any margin for error with that level of production even if your goalie stands on his head.

 

[rumman]

What makes Florida's forward grup successful is they have a pretty deep bench of guys who are on the bigger side, can skate, play nasty and seem to enjoy defensive detail, like they enjoy disrupting you, smothering you and know that effort leads to offensive chances. Then you have their D whose strength looks like quick transition and ability to scramble and defend. And you have a Hall of Fame Russian goalie having a career renaissance to hold it down. That's a lot of strengths and team attributes, identity that becomes a 20 man unit.

Our Leafs brand over the years is "we bet on skill, let the powerplay be our toughness and goalies are voodoo" It's a literal contrast between an organization building a serious team concept with intangibles and strength at every position vs a superficial video game roster that would look thin by NBA standards.

nice summation of the state of the nation..........

Well maybe some year they will try it.

your living in a fantasy world, but to each their own..........

 

[ToneDog]

I guess my reply should have been directed to the guy that said we can’t be playing shinny in the playoffs. lol! Well the remaining teams are doing fine carrying on with their regular season style. I think only the Leafs get hoodwinked into the “you better change the way you play in the playoffs”.

Regardless I do agree with, whatever way you play in October/ March better be the same way you play in the playoffs.

Especially if the way you played during the regular season was a winning formula, don’t tamper with it.

For somebody who has said he stops watching the playoffs once the Leafs are out, you sure have lots of opinions on how other teams play in the playoffs. Exactly how does that work?. Are you watching or are you reading stats? Do tell.